CD player or ext. DA-converter?

Audio Technica AT-LP60X Fully Automatic Belt-Drive Turntable
So exactly what is the problem? Is it customary to inquire about the business and personal details of the owners of a company before you buy their product? Honestly, in the UK we would consider that to be rude and nosey.
Just as bad is to question why a company would want to remove the details of certain components when they first come to market. What has that got to do with anyone??? The later versions have been opened up and their internal details photographed and even modifications shown. So the IC part numbers have been well known and openly published on the internet on various forums for many years.

STan
 
I think it is issue of transperancy.

i.e. Taiwan DAC has stated details abt the chip used(cirus & Burr brn).
It is cheaper than UK one.

On other hand no details on UK web.It is said that modifications are maid to Taiwan product,but not mentioned what on web,IC no are painted.
If Taiwan company owner is cousin of Stanley,then why the price has gone up.Evenif the changes are maid in the TW DAC,its not newly built?Just removed components from it?

In this procedure the price can be similar to that of TW DAC with marginal gain(not mre than 10%)as Stanley can get discount for two reasons-
1.He will buy in bulk and definate distributor's discount(30% less on MRP)
2.He is cousin too

No question of UK customs as Stanley has unit in Taiwan too.

links-
About to pull the trigger on a Beresford TC-7510 - Page 6 - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

About to pull the trigger on a Beresford TC-7510 - Page 6 - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

I think second link is removed which has email discussion just like Venkat did.
 
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Dear Friends

If it happens please consider me for the group order as well. I am in Mumbai.

Thanks

ame
 
StanleyB said:
Honestly, in the UK we would consider that to be rude and nosey.

STan
Click to expand...

I was busy the whole day for my high school reunion. When I came back and looked at the thread, I was appalled, to say the least.

Nobody, absolutely nobody lectures us on what is considered nosy or rude in UK, period. What Venkat pursued, to me, was a fact finding effort and as typical of him and most forum members, did that very politely. It is up to Beresford and Technolink to answer as much as they can and want to. Then it is up to us, the forum members, to decide if we buy the product or not. Venkat just presented the facts as they were. In fact, then he even suggested how it can be imported to India through Chennai.

To me it is absolutely clear which behavior has turned out to be impolite.

We do not need to bend on our knees to apologize by saying that we are a suspicious lot. I have not given permission to anybody in this forum to declare on my behalf that I am suspicious.

I have lived 14 years of my life in the Western World. I know very well what is considered rude and nosy there, especially when spending somebody's hard earned money.

Dear moderator, I request you to see to it that nobody is allowed to use this kind of language in this forum.
 
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Well said Asit. It doesn't matter where you come from. I think it is the prerogative of the buyer to clarify to their satisfaction the quality and technical aspects of a product. I only see stanley's replies as aggressive selling, bordering ridiculing the client (which is self-immolating but happens a lot in this industry).
 
more ridiculous behavior on part of one Stanley B...threatening to sue people on the internet...wonder if some legal notice or a threat of one came your way Venkat ...

I can't believe anyone would want to do business with this guy.
 
It may be a legit assertive stance taken by Stanley ... the original poster removed some pics in defence... why would he unless something was not right?

In anycase if Stanley wants to charge more for custom mods he has spent time and effort in developing, I have no problems as long as the price is reasonable.

Regards
 
Well, well, well, folks lets stop slandering any of the members here - not the least Venkat or Stanley.

I feel at this point it is upto Venkat to come back as to whether he still has any concerns regarding the product or other related aspects. I tend to agree with Cranky on this. We do have a right to be suspicious as a group - considering how much we pay for even a small modicum of improvement, that too could be imagined or real. :)
 
whatever the mods stan has done he could explain it in his product brochure. In any case it doesn't excuse his behavior of threatening folks over the internet with legal ramifications.

Even if the product actually is good, I personally wouldn't feel good about my hard earned money ending up in unsavory hands.

Ultimately the customer gets to pick. He doesn't/shouldn't get badgered.
To each his own. Regards
 
thevortex said:
Well, well, well, folks lets stop slandering any of the members here - not the least Venkat or Stanley.

I feel at this point it is upto Venkat to come back as to whether he still has any concerns regarding the product or other related aspects. I tend to agree with Cranky on this. We do have a right to be suspicious as a group - considering how much we pay for even a small modicum of improvement, that too could be imagined or real. :)
Click to expand...

Also lets not forget that Stanley is a "backyard inventor" style operator depending on "word of mouth" via forums. He does not have a professional publicity or marketing arm that will do his website in the manner of a larger corporate. Browsing on the UK forum for a few hours gave me more insight into the product - perhaps he should put it all in one page on his website. But I would not hold it against him.

OK he is irritable and perhaps unreasonable at times to some people, but I'm more interested in his productive output not the "quirks" in his persona ( not implying it - just putting it the way some people perceive it) to put it, if any.


Regards
 
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Friends:

At the outset, I have been refraining myself to even look at this thread, as I feared I would lose my cool. But I think I should clarify my stand on this issue.

Let me list the sequence of events.

1. Beresford DAC has been under discussion for quote some time as a viable alternative for a reasonably priced DAC.

2. A number of people, in particular, Spirovious, kept pressing for a DAC and ways of getting it into the country.

3. Taking upon myself to represent the members here, I wrote to Mr. Stanley Beresford and mentioned about our forum and our interest in his DAC. I received a reply including offer for a discount if we buy in numbers.

4. I was happy with the correspondence, and was just surfing the Net, when I hit upon some information on the DAC.

5. I wrote back to Mr. Stanley Beresford asking for clarifications. and have listed the complete correspondence I have had with him.

I don't think I have been rude anywhere. I have purposely kept my language very formal. I have dealt with a number of Britishers and British companies as a supplier of software from here. It is customary for both sides to exchange all information about ownership patterns, Balance Sheets, P&L statements, etc., before we sign an agreement to work together. This is done both on the table directly and through companies that specialize in such tasks such as Dun & Bradstreet.

Is all this necessary for a product costing a few 100 dollars? Certainly not. But the questions came up when I read those notes on the Net. All I wanted was some simple information - where is the product designed, where is it manufactured? I NEVER asked for any personal details. I just wanted to know the relationship between the two companies - joint venture, buyer/seller, regional distributor, etc. There are so many companies that get their product manufactured by someone else and sell it in their own name. The Apple iPod is a case in point.

But I certainly did not expect such aggressive behaviour, that too to a potential client. Such behaviour only raises more doubts in my mind. If I have to deal with such behaviour even before I place an order, what will be my fate after I have the product in hand? Will I get slapped in my face when I ask for some details again, or ask for some service query? Nearly all of us have to deal with large corporations for whom we are just a small spoke in their large wheel. Do we need to add to our woes?

Some simple and to-the-point answers would have simply and easily cleared all my doubts.

For me all transactions have to be pleasant. I have walked away from business when I have found my clients to be unreasonable. I certainly do not want to be involved with a product/seller that gives me an uncomfortable feeling from day one. I never re-visit a shop or a restaurant where someone has been unprofessional in their behaviour.

Regarding rude behaviour, I was reminded of a situation when I visited London. My wife and I were walking some street when we got lost. So I walked up to a street vendor and politely asked if he knew the street we were looking for. 'What do you think I am, a guide? Can't you see I am busy trying to make a living?', was his answer. I agreed, nodded, and started walking away, when he screamed at me 'to have the decency to at least thank him'. I fail to understand this kind of behaviour. But i suppose each set of people have their own rules and customs for human interaction. Not my cup of tea at all.

'So exactly what is the problem?', asks Mr. Stanley Beresford. Very simple. I like to know what I am buying. If I import ten pieces, in a way I am representing you. For me my relationship with members here is more important. Even leaving that aside, if I use your product only for myself, I would like to know what I am using. How does it matter you can ask. Well, all of us, in addition to using audio/video products take a lot of pride in knowing what we are using. And that is something I will not give away for any reason.

I am sure there are scores of similar or better products in the market, and I will look for them. And I am sure you will find others who will buy your products.

Cheers
 
Hi Cranky,

Thanks for your long mail. Thanks for your learned advice and patronization.

Let me ask you a few questions:

1. Irrespective of Venkat's e-mails and the subsequent post, do you think if Sanley's post was polite and appropriate?

2. Do you think my post had anything about the product, any suggestion whether it was good or bad or anything of that sort?

3. Why do you think you had to apologise to Stanley on behalf of the whole community of Hifivision? Why do you think we are a suspicious lot?

4. Do you think that it's wrong to take a stand on bullish behavior?

5. Is it wrong to ask about the details of a product (as I said before, the owner of the brand may or may not want to have all details out, it is his decision, the customer makes his own decision) ?

I couldn't care less about the arrogance of a MF Hussain and/or a Ferrari, not because I do not see the talent in a Hussain or a Ferrari, because these are more a fashion statement for me and a diluted form of pretended arrogance. I have seen real arrogance that comes from within, that is not overcome by smart talk, one needs substance to stand up to it. Try and talk to Prof Murray Gell Mann or Prof Steven Weinberg (Nobel laureates in Physics) or similar people in whatever field you happen to be in and you would know what arrogance is all about. I think you will agree with me here, although I am dumb and have not really understood why you brought up the issue of arrogance.
 
I agree with Venkat that *he* should not deal anymore with Stanley. Dignity and self-respect are more important. I am not surprised by his experience with the street hawker. Europeans do make themselves out to be more "culturally evolved" that they really are or ever have been :p ( for the dedicated readers: Re-orient - Andre Gunder Frank)

The question is if this should be seen as a call for a collective rejection or if individuals not directly addressed in the rude communication are willing to brush it aside and go ahead with a transaction with him.

I am still game to check it out. I will never spend $1000 on a piece of audio equipment, hence keen to explore a budget piece that might potentially enhance SQ. However I want to add, I never would if he spoke to me like that personally. Maybe he just lost his cool and patience with who he thought were his detractors.

For that reason, I feel those desiring to purchase should not involve Venky further in this deal. Am in no hurry though. Can wait a few months just for the heck of convenience.

Regards
 
Hi anm,
I own such a CDP (CA740c) that doubles up as a DAC also. I think for the price it is very very good. And considering that the CA products are offered at a decent price in comparison to many other brands, it is even a better buy. However, spirovious and others who want to buy a DAC wanted a less costly solution, at least that was my understanding. For the price the Bereford products sound very good and they have also very decent user reviews. The CA 740c now costs around Rs 50K. I bought it 3 months ago for a price of 42K.


Hi Cranky,

It's now my turn to say: Please 'cool down'. If yours was not, mine is also not patronizing.

One a more serious note, you seem to be a bright and knowledgeable member of the forum. You know a lot about audio electronics, speakers etc and also a musician, as you once stated in a thread here. I personally have learned quite a lot from your posts.

See, that does not mean I have to agree with you on every count. And, I do not, on many issues we have recently discussed in this particular thread. That does not mean you quit. It is not to be looked upon as a war where somebody has to win. We discuss issues related to a very dear passion of audio and video in this forum, including issues of product information, customer-seller relations etc. In this particular case, I do not think we have moved from the actual issue of the thread at all. However, I agree that we have moved from technical aspects to seller-product information and demeanor. That is also a relevant topic, however I can understand you may not have any interest in it.

Just as you stated that you are not going to buy this particular DAC because you already have other products with you, similarly I also have not shown any interest in the product, not because it is bad or something, but because I already do have alternate products that I have recently purchased and very happy with it. But I was reading along all the responses just to enrich my learning, because I feel I am very deficient in the technical aspects.

Obviously you do not agree with the way Venkat has handled the issue. Your suggested mode of handling could really have been more efficient and trouble-free, this is debateable, but for the sake of the argument let us accept it. But at the same time, I do NOT call Venkat's activity or my subsequent post as "witch-hunting" or "mud-slinging". Please take a look around this forum. You will find that the thread is filled with posts from Venkat where he is genuinely trying to help many many young enthusiasts. Nowhere in his posts or in mine, you will observe any hint of arrogance, impoliteness or similar things, let alone "mud-slinging" and "witch-hunting". It was not difficult for me to see (even before Venkat's recent post) what Venkat really wanted to do, although we may argue about the methods. In my whole life, nobody has accused me of being arrogant, impolite, a "mud-slinger" or a "witch-hunter". Do you really know how strong words you have been using? Although it hurts, I will take that in my stride.

And why these allegations from you? All because, Venkat had some questions which were partly not answered or something, and when he published the text as is, that is taken as an act of insinuation. However, not even once, I heard you stated that what SB has done (both in not answering the e-mail questions and then writing a very impolite post basically trying to ridicule a customer) is anything bad. Your "cool down" advice was not directed at him.

Do you have any idea what kind of product details and company details potential customers normally seek in the western world? For my research work I need a lot of computation (sustained spped of multi-teraflops range), actually some of the best available in the world. As a result I have been part of many purchase procedures, and very detailed discussion on everything from parts to company profiles were officially discussed. I also have not understood why you want to label the e-mail communications as strictly personal.

I would still say it is upto the company to supply as much information as they want or can. I'll give you an example. We are going to have a massively parallel supercomputer installed in our Institute. The power requirement according to the installation manual says X KWatts. Our electrical engineer maintained that it is only the total connected load, and the actual use even in peak conditions do not normally exceed 60% of that. No matter how hard we tried for a statement on this from the company, they avoided it and finally stated that for a given application (LINPACK) it can consume upto 80% of the total connected load. There are many reasons why companies cannot come completely clean on many issues. They have to just state it gracefully and professionally. I cannot accept behavior like "I will eat you up if you ask this kind of questions" , neither can I accept the support of that kind of behavior.

Before I sent out my first response after SB's reply, I actually had it and the whole sequence of the recent posts read by my wife and my son. My wife is a reasonably senior software professional with a internationally well-known company, my son is very mild natured (but brilliant in both academics and cricket). This is just to say that they are not completely worthless people, and on reading my post they fully agreed and in fact my wife was even suggesting to write a bit more on the demands of the typical western customer.

I felt, to support Venkat and to denounce SB's behavior, a strong message was needed, because somehow in the whole day unfortunately that did not come, infact quite opposite views started coming out. Since then we have been called 'mud-slingers' and 'witch-hunters' and after calling us all that you now want to quit. Why is it so hard to understand that there are still people in this world who fight for principles even risking their self-respect and without offending others as much as possible? Why is it that always I am right and the other guy is rubbish? Can we not have a bit more respect around here? After all we are all music lovers and in our culture that is connected with a spiritual upliftment.

I request you to reconsider your decision of not posting. I only hope you try to understand where I am coming from, our differences notwithstanding.
 
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