CD vs FLAC. Which is better?

[sarith]

Dr.Bass, How can you say ripped CD-R better than the Original CD? Original CD is the ultimate sound, please understand the reality...

I remember one incident where I rented 'Anniyan' audio cd and burned it to a good cd-r (maybe a maxell..can't remember well) and later, I liked the songs much that I got myself a audio cd.

I later compared the original CD I bought with the cd-r and I was in for a shock that the cd-r sounded better.. maybe it was something with the original acd I bought or something to do with both cd-r and cd burner quality.

I currently use LG burner to burn dvd and an old Sony burner for my cd-r. I liked the burning quality of HP burner (cd-r sounded good) in the past but HP is not very reliable.

Sony sometimes shows errors too but burned cd-r sounds good. I wasted multiple BASF cd-r just to check if it's just an illusion or reality that Sony burner sounded better than my LG.

Also, burning software influences the sound too imo. I use Nero 8 and have tried Jriver, both were good, but I chose Nero

 

[sarith]

The ideal machine should be fanless, diskless with a designed for audio USB card with accurate clocks, a linear power supply & a good USB cable.

I was wondering if the 'fanless, diskless' factors are applicable to desktops too. I had a asus mobo with optical out and when connected via a dac, it sounded good that I seldom use my sony dvd player (Though a dvd player, it's coaxial output is pretty good).

There were around 6 fans (one 90mm, three 120mm and two 140) and 3 HDD of various capacity. I agree about the linear psu as the old sony cd player I used had linear psu and the sound was, well..cleaner.

The Asus mobo died and been using my bro's old(abandoned) intel mobo based core2duo pc and I don't listen to much music in it. I ripped tracks to wave and stored it on my mob(Asha 501..surprisingly good portable 'no eq' player for it's price..did few comparison)

I can say that asus was better in sound (sounded less 'noisy') compared to intel mobo which is not that enjoyable(I have to consider the age and model of intel mobo which is a basic dg31pr compared to newer asus p8z68v-pro/gen3)

 

[jls001]

1. Would a downloaded file burnt onto a disc and played on a CD player sound better than the downloaded file itself on, say, arj's or ROC's setups?

No personal experience with top class CDR but I've heard others say something like a Taiyo Yuden CDR can make audible difference. Personally I've heard sonic differences of the same tracks I had burned on a regular bog standard Moser Baer and regular bog standard Sony CDRs when played on a very revealing setup.

On the other hand, on my own modest setup, an original CD sounded way better than a burned CDR (ripped with EAC from the original CD and saved as .wav and burned on a blank Moser Baer CDR using Nero 7). So I'm a bit wary of burning audio CDs though I'm sometimes forced to.

 

[prem]

Same here Jls001. Have never heard a cd burnt from an original cd sound better than the original at least on my system. In fact every time I preferred the original cd

 

[sarith]

No personal experience with top class CDR but I've heard others say something like a Taiyo Yuden CDR can make audible difference.

I have read somewhere that older Verbatim cd-r were Taiyo Yuden make..

Same here Jls001. Have never heard a cd burnt from an original cd sound better than the original at least on my system. In fact every time I preferred the original cd

In my case, I had this 'incident' happen only with the Anniyan audio cd. Maybe the difference was with original CD I made a copy of and the original one I bought. Keeping that in mind, I have bought two nos of Tamil,

Hindi acd of certain films/albums to check if there is any difference in sound and there wasn't much worthy of commenting.

 

[Nikhil]

IMO, quality audio at the level we audiophiles seek would only happen with "purpose built" high performance equipments. ...

In the computer audiophile forum every week a new recipe is proposed to play digital file. This is not the way I would personally like to adapt to any technology.

The guys at CA are in my opinion at the cutting edge of most things Computer Audio. You would want to have that kind of thinking if you want to be at the forefront. However that doesn't mean one has to adopt every new idea that comes out. Chris has several recommended recipes there in the CAPS Section (Computer Audiophile Pocket Server) where one can try out designs with complete hardware specs mentioned. No experimentation needed - follow the recipe and you have a great machine in your hands.

I agree with Sid who mentioned earlier that here in India this stuff is trivial. We are blessed to have no shortage of tech minded blokes who can slap together a mean machine at short notice. One could easily assemble a great machine for around Rs 50k - 60k that would absolutely smoke most CD players out there.

To propose that CD players are better based on how hard it is to put together a computer setup is absurd and maybe even erroneous. Anybody on here can install Foobar/JRiver on a Win PC or it's equivalent on a Mac and be set for reasonable money. Tweaking it further is always an option but that applies to anything else including CD and Vinyl,

 

[arj]

Original CD is the neutral recording sound, if you feel copy cd's sound much more better than original ''may be done coloring'' due to transformation process.

When we say a cd sounds better it is not just because of the content but also because of the quality of pressing.

The process of reading an Audio cd is not the same as reading a CD by a computer. a CD player does not read 0s and 1s but reads "Words" and the content has lot of redundancy and some Lattitude given to the CDP to put it together. In fact the reader reads via an algorithm called the Reed solomon error correction and then develops the PCM to be given to the dac

Due to this an inferior pressing OR transport can produce higher errors. But Reading it via a Good ripper which does multi reads and then doing a high quality write into a good CDR can ensure that the pressing is better and hence a better read by the transport. Hence the son being better than the father
BUT if you have a high end transport..they are built to extract the sound in a much better way and hence the quality of pressing is made far lesser...and hence the copy may not sound as good as the original. (it will sound worse on a regular CDR or if the write is made at a high speed ie lower quality)

I have actually written some of my Flacs into the high quality CDR mentioned above and prefer that on my transport over the Flac !

 

[sidvee]

BUT if you have a high end transport..they are built to extract the sound in a much better way and hence the quality of pressing is made far lesser...and hence the copy may not sound as good as the original. !

Arj and the rest of the guys,
Don't get me wrong but what exactly is high end? I was just told earlier that an Ayon cd2s that I paid close to $6000 has a $100 transport and that a $12k cd5s is much better with a phillips transport. So what does one have to spend to qualify as high end and excellent sound from a disc transport? Can I buy a musical fidelity transport that is available at Audio people for about INR 65k- 70k and get great sound? Or what about the plethora of marantzes that are always being bandied about. Will they give me great sound?
Cheers,
Sid

 

[arj]

As far as mechanism goes, Esoterics VRDS is perhaps the only true High end transport . Among the old ones, the CDMpro 9 was very good and I think one of the Sony ES transports (forgot)
The CDMPro2 is a step down from the VRDS. the rest need much more modding in terms of isolation/isolation etc to be even near.

there are lots of transports made with the above. I would only look at the CDM Pro series as a 2nd option or the VRDS as the numero Uno for CDs

there could be others but dont know much about them

Note: JVC Viktor is apparently another great one..not heard it though

 

[prem]

CDM Pro 2 is nowhere in the Esoteric VRDS League. I have owned both

 

[sidvee]

Thanks Arj,
So based on your suggestion I googled Esoteric VRDS - this was one that showed up so one has to spend $8500 to acquire this or whatever the latest version of this is (and atleast this includes the DAC):
SoundStage! Equipment Review - Esoteric UX-3 Universal Audio/Video Player (2/2006)
or $13,500 for this
SoundStage! Equipment Review - Esoteric P-03 CD/SACD Transport and D-03 Digital-to-Analog Converter (6/2006)
and that is in US retail pricing - here you have to figure what 30-40-50 or100% markup. I know who deals with Esoteric in India and I know their markup.
Next CDM pro9 and pro 2 - I could not find any current players but there were a ton of ebay links for just the transport mechanism at $200-$250. So how does one go about building a player for this?
One player based on what you own is reasonable at $1500 perhaps $2000 delivered to India - but is discontinued
Softone Model3 CD player / CD transport
Softone ordering
In fact they do not offer any Cd transport at present.
I am not being difficult but how does one exactly get these high end transports so that they compete with a perhaps $1000 -$1200 computer based transport?
That is the crux of the discussion thus far at-least in my view, that high end Cd transports sound much better than Computer based transports - or in a nod to the OP - FLAC vs actual Cd disc playback. Ok ,agreed but of-course at that pricing they should sound better. I can also build a no holds barred, mother of all computer transports for say a princely sum of $5000 which is less than half of the P03. Not sure what parts I would put in it (but i know where I can get a 1000 watt linear PSU for about $2500 and water cooling and alumnium extruded chassis and the works), and then it would be a fair comparison don't you think?
Anyways just my thoughts - no offence intended to anybody and definitely not you Arj - indeed I am just a novice in the computer audio arena and to high end music reproduction (Cd based) as a whole so please excuse this minor rant.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[arj]

Hi sid, my response on the above post was about CD quality differences and why there could be difference between an original and a copy. I really have no clue of differences between Computer audio and CD on any other system other than mine since I have not really experimented on any other system..and my view is the same. its too complex and nascent for me to seriously dabble and spend money on.

I have heard a fantastic version of Computer audio ( maybe not technically) and thats at Staxxx place. that is so superior to my cd player that its not funny but then its a completely end to end integrated digital system right upto the amp.

And yes, I am very happy with my transport and am glad i bought it. Perhaps Siva still makes one ..his is CDM Pro2 as well

Anyway these days I only listen to Vinyl so may well be a Dinosaur

 

[sidvee]

Apologies Arj, I agree your post was not really related to compare computer and Cd transports. However I was just trying to understand what constitutes of a high end Cd transport and is it available in India is all?
Anyways at least from my perspective this discussion is going round and around like a merry-go-round so I will make a graceful exit here.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Naturelover]

Just for info, some time back I had found a pretty exhaustive list of players and DACs with the mechanism and chip details.
MaxDat - Elektronika Hifi ?s Hobbi Oldal - _CD-PLAYER-DAC-TRANSPORT-LIST

 

[sarith]

Just for info, some time back I had found a pretty exhaustive list of players and DACs with the mechanism and chip details.
MaxDat - Elektronika Hifi ?s Hobbi Oldal - _CD-PLAYER-DAC-TRANSPORT-LIST

After seeing your post I had an Intuition that I had seen something similar. In my google chrome, it was the 4th bookmarked page staring me every time I opened chrome..
CD-Player-DAC-Transport List

 

[Dr.Bass]

One of the reasons people always avoided transport + dac combo was because it gets very expensive. A CD transport would cost 50k+ and even an average standalone DAC would cost something like 40k+ (unless one goes for the chinese stuff). Add to it the cost of digital cable and additional power cord, it all goes to 100k+ even for a average combo. So people normally chose a good 30-40k one box CD player that played well. It may sound a bit inferior to the 100k transport + DAC combo but thats expected, at least one doesnt have to commit big money to get going. All this applies to computer based playback too. To setup a decent music PC would cost 50k+ and then the cost of a DAC + cables, altogether 100k+ quite easily. I do not see how this option can replace a 30-40k CD player(considering that there are hardly any high-res material compared to the collection of CDs we have).

My point is, it seems like a big big hype. People are jumping on a bandwagon which is still under construction and will take considerable time to get ready for consumption, both economically and qualitatively.

The guys at CA are in my opinion at the cutting edge of most things Computer Audio. You would want to have that kind of thinking if you want to be at the forefront. However that doesn't mean one has to adopt every new idea that comes out. Chris has several recommended recipes there in the CAPS Section (Computer Audiophile Pocket Server) where one can try out designs with complete hardware specs mentioned. No experimentation needed - follow the recipe and you have a great machine in your hands.

This is a different ball game bro. Being at the forefront with the latest and greatest is exciting and it is understandable if one has a passion for it. I am just talking about a "hype" that has been created that computer audio is cheap, convenient and beats most CD players out there. None of them is really true "at this point". I have met many audiophiles who feel it is a pain sorting, searching and maintaining a 1TB hard disk of music. Browsing through endless folders and sub-folders, looking for a particular version of a track, creating or modifying a playlist etc is not really enjoyble. We are not even talking about hard disk backup and crash management yet. CD collection in general is more well chosen and sorted by natural instincts. It is not my own interpretation, I have come across this issue in many other debates on this subject. Similarly, it is not cheap either to setup a good PC with all asynchronous devices, PSU upgrade etc. The one thing that really goes in its favour is "it is the future". Agreed! But if you remove the hype, it is NOT the present. Lots of things are yet to be decided and standardised. Some day we may have something like a THX certified music PC, who knows

 

[arj]

O We are not even talking about hard disk backup and crash management yet. CD collection in general is more well chosen and sorted by natural instincts.

Am a Vicitm of this !

Lost my HDD one of these days and the Backup disk I had was also not working ! (motor seems to have died )
thankfully had given an older backup to my Brother in law..i dont even know what I have lost in terms of all my ripped files.
Those that i have bought should be re-downloadable again..but lost the interest to do that now !!

If you are keeping music as Digital ..then investment in a RAID is highly recomended. just got myself a NAS to backup my backup !!!!

 

[sarith]

Am a Vicitm of this !

Lost my HDD one of these days and the Backup disk I had was also not working ! (motor seems to have died )
thankfully had given an older backup to my Brother in law..i dont even know what I have lost in terms of all my ripped files.
Those that i have bought should be re-downloadable again..but lost the interest to do that now !!

If you are keeping music as Digital ..then investment in a RAID is highly recomended. just got myself a NAS to backup my backup !!!!

A 500gb and 2tb hdd dead taking away all of my songs and movies and pics of younger me of which I don't have any copy :sad:

The 2tb HDD was said to be Hitachi's 'high profile' (I ordered a barracuda, but the shop gave me Hitachi instead) and it died within 2 years of purchase. After 20 days of RMA, they sent me the repaired HDD. Now I burn important stuff to dvd-r just to be safe.

 

[jls001]

There are two types of hard disks - those that have crashed and those which are yet to crash. If you value your media a lot, simply assume the worst as HDD mortality is very high and very real. So for every HDD you own, try and buy another one of the same capacity to be used solely as backup.

There are specialised IT firms that can do recoveries from crashed disks but they are extremely costly (around 25000 to 40000 depending who you go to, plus cost of new disk, and they won't even assure you 100% recovery!).

Another backup to have, even if you have ripped your CDs and have gone fully the PC transport way, is to store away your CDs safely. Don't sell/gift/dispose them off just yet.

 

[panditji]

Point taken...need to backup my music files....

I do disagree on the digital music front being inconvenient and expensive....I myslef bought a cheap laptop (i3, 4GB RAM) for about 25k and bought a DAC (Chord 2Qute) for about 1L...add Rs. 3000 for a USB cable and I have all the music I ever wanted to hear controlled through my Rs. 6000 phone (it is a business expense and not bought for audio)...I have 20-30 versions of a lot of tracks which I like and sitting in my chair I can listen to all of them without getting up...that is convenient...yes the hard drives need to be backed up but then even CDs can be scratched or get spoiled if kept in the sun by mistake....And the amount of details which I am getting from the Laptop/DAC is astounding....

Sure I have not heard a very high end expensive player but then I am happy with the convenience a digital setup brings with excellent sound..