center channel - phantom or physical speaker

[filmguy]

so far i've had no center speaker and been watching movies in a 4.1 setup

my 2 front bookshelves are about 8 feet way from the MLP and each speaker about 6 feet apart. since i always sit in the sweet spot and other family members who watch dont care much either ways about the finer details so they dont mind

just to test things again the other day to see if i was missing out anything i connected a spare bookshelf as the center channel and temporarily kept it on the entertainment unit under the tv

now admittedly i didnt do any calibration etc but i was surprised to find how "boxy" the voices sounded with a dedicated center. also it seemed to localize the audio and i was very conscious i was hearing voices coming from the center speaker. switching back to the fronts and it felt like voices were coming from the tv and were not as localized. few others have reported the same even with calibrated setups so i dont think what was the cause.

also just listening to the sounds coming from the fronts when the center was enabled and i was again surprised to find so little information encoded in them. even musical cues which i thought would come from the sides were mainly coming from the center. considering that most english movies (esp dramas etc) have very little in terms of music etc it almost felt like the fronts were being "wasted"

the only benefit i seemed to find with a center was that when there was a loud swell of music there seemed to be more dynamism to the sound because suddenly there was this sound coming from speakers that had seemed quiet till then

reading about this on different forums seemed as usual to bring up mixed reactions with people swearing that one way was better than the other. but the conclusion i reached was that if you have all 3 front speakers the exact same then a center is unbeatable but even having a 'matched' horizontal type center as most of us would go for since there wont be any place to have a bookshelf or tower speaker under the tv there are some compromises involved and then depending on where you sit you might actually benefit from having no center speaker

wonder if FM's with at least a 3.x setup are upto some experimentation? try listening to different scenes with center speaker enabled and disabled. i suspect most will like what their ears are used to (just like in my case) but it'd be good to hear about it either ways. maybe others entering HT can save some $$$ by skipping a center speaker

 

[MaSh]

If your room is not one of those weird shapes, you don't need a center channel speaker. The fronts would give you ample imaging. Center channel becomes very important when the seating positions are not ideal, at extremes in the room and the room itself is not a perfect rectangle.

MaSh

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

 

[shibashis]

A quality center channel matching the timber of the fronts is a must if you have a multi-channel setup for movies.
Lot has been said about it and the opinion is almost universal. Center is of particular importance for HT, also a quality center speaker rather than a 'spare' one will make a world of difference.

If you watch movies in a 2.0 or 2.1 setup then of course this is an irrelevant question.
With a bit of effort and placement the fronts and the center just amalgamate with one another and the transition among the three is seamless.
You could try taking a few demos, ask to play a good clip with all channels on and then play it back with the center off, the difference will be immediately apparent. I lived for 3 years with my Zensors as the fronts without the center, once I added it there was no going back.

 

[saikatbiswas82]

I lived for 3 years with my Zensors as the fronts without the center, once I added it there was no going back.

So did I. Initially started off with MA BX2s. After 3 long years I managed to add BX center and since then lot of things changed.

Sent from a handheld device. Some typos may creep in

 

[filmguy]

A quality center channel matching the timber of the fronts is a must if you have a multi-channel setup for movies.
Lot has been said about it and the opinion is almost universal. Center is of particular importance for HT, also a quality center speaker rather than a 'spare' one will make a world of difference.

If you watch movies in a 2.0 or 2.1 setup then of course this is an irrelevant question.
With a bit of effort and placement the fronts and the center just amalgamate with one another and the transition among the three is seamless.
You could try taking a few demos, ask to play a good clip with all channels on and then play it back with the center off, the difference will be immediately apparent. I lived for 3 years with my Zensors as the fronts without the center, once I added it there was no going back.

So did I. Initially started off with MA BX2s. After 3 long years I managed to add BX center and since then lot of things changed.

Sent from a handheld device. Some typos may creep in

before you'll got the center was your listening position in an odd position vis-a-vis the fronts? or are you'll far away from the fronts (more than 10ft)?

what was the difference you'll felt after adding the center?

 

[saikatbiswas82]

before you'll got the center was your listening position in an odd position vis-a-vis the fronts? or are you'll far away from the fronts (more than 10ft)?

what was the difference you'll felt after adding the center?

For me, the experience was bit different than before (pre center channel era).
My listening position (in my earlier room) was approx 6ft away from my LR. with 2.1 setup movies sounded just fine.
After adding the center and surrounds, I finally understood how 5.1 sounds like. Its like sitting in a theater with far better audio quality. And my take on this is - as long as the the whole 5.1 channel is in place (with all physical speakers), one cannot enjoy movies the way it was meant to be.

 

[tuff]

My own take on it is if the center speaker sounds localized, especially when its above/ below a large screen it will bother any discerning listener. A good speaker should disappear while anchoring the content, something very few systems do. Stereo usually creates a nice phantom image putting the dialog right in the center of the tweeters and sometimes is more preferable than a dedicated center channel that seems to put the dialog above or below the screen. Now if there was a way to stick the center channel right behind the screen, you would have a much better integration,and not notice the sounds coming from below or above the screen. In a perfect world, all three fronts would be identical speakers at the same height.

 

[efernand1]

Hi

A physical center makes a difference if you are more inclined towards movies...for someone who hears music most of the time, phantom center is more than enough to suffice....for the limited movies being watched....its an individual choice...

 

[sash]

Phantom center is better than an inferior center. I used to have that problem earlier. But with a "real" center, it takes the movie to a different level. My Klipsch RC62 is a real monster and is an exact replica of the LR towers. I would never settle for anything less

 

[saikatbiswas82]

Hi

A physical center makes a difference if you are more inclined towards movies...for someone who hears music most of the time, phantom center is more than enough to suffice....for the limited movies being watched....its an individual choice...

Center channel speaker is not meant for music. It's for movies only.

Sent from a handheld device. Some typos may creep in

 

[elangoas]

now admittedly i didnt do any calibration etc but i was surprised to find how "boxy" the voices sounded with a dedicated center. also it seemed to localize the audio and i was very conscious i was hearing voices coming from the center speaker. switching back to the fronts and it felt like voices were coming from the tv and were not as localized. few others have reported the same even with calibrated setups so i dont think what was the cause.

You never know, calibration might help in clear dialogues... Though i haven't used phantom center,it is hard to beat a center channel for movies which is active throughout the movie than other channels..

 

[filmguy]

For me, the experience was bit different than before (pre center channel era).
My listening position (in my earlier room) was approx 6ft away from my LR. with 2.1 setup movies sounded just fine.
After adding the center and surrounds, I finally understood how 5.1 sounds like. Its like sitting in a theater with far better audio quality. And my take on this is - as long as the the whole 5.1 channel is in place (with all physical speakers), one cannot enjoy movies the way it was meant to be.

rear surrounds i understand coz without that you lose out on the surround sound. but without center you're not really losing out any info, no?

My own take on it is if the center speaker sounds localized, especially when its above/ below a large screen it will bother any discerning listener. A good speaker should disappear while anchoring the content, something very few systems do. Stereo usually creates a nice phantom image putting the dialog right in the center of the tweeters and sometimes is more preferable than a dedicated center channel that seems to put the dialog above or below the screen. Now if there was a way to stick the center channel right behind the screen, you would have a much better integration,and not notice the sounds coming from below or above the screen. In a perfect world, all three fronts would be identical speakers at the same height.

yes this was the conclusion i read from most people. 3 identical speakers > phantom. but horizontal type centers are not necessarily > phantom and really only helps for off-axis viewers

Hi

A physical center makes a difference if you are more inclined towards movies...for someone who hears music most of the time, phantom center is more than enough to suffice....for the limited movies being watched....its an individual choice...

i watch more movies than listen to music but even that is limited to 2/3 times a week max

Phantom center is better than an inferior center. I used to have that problem earlier. But with a "real" center, it takes the movie to a different level. My Klipsch RC62 is a real monster and is an exact replica of the LR towers. I would never settle for anything less

its not really an exact replica though. its a "matched" center

You never know, calibration might help in clear dialogues... Though i haven't used phantom center,it is hard to beat a center channel for movies which is active throughout the movie than other channels..

can you please try a few clips with 'center' set to 'none' and give it a try. would love to hear your feedback on that.

 

[filmguy]

the problem with demoing center in a professional show room is that in most cases they have projectors and all their front speakers are at the same height which is difficult to achieve at home.

in my case i would have to put the center above my tv on a bracket (or adjust things below it) and being so close to it (4-8 ft depending on placement) i dont know how the avr will adjust for height. plus the visual sense of a decent sized center overpowering the tv since it will always be thicker than a flat screen tv


i know avrs can calibrate for distance but they cant adjust for height (ie is the center above or below the tv) so i will always be able to tell that dialogues are coming from that particular speaker which will localise the sound. with phantoms currently it really feels like the sound is coming from the tv. another thing i felt in my experiment - and i have read the same complaint on other threads from people who switched from dedicated horizontal type centers to a phantom one - was that the voices really seemed 'boxy' ie coming from a box. i felt like i was listening to something in mono. honestly, the only reason i'm considering buying a center is i dont know if i'm missing out on something and that nagging doubt.

i was seriously considering going for a center but i wonder if once i buy it i wont regret it and somewhere feel that no center was a better experience. you dont want to buy something then feel that it wouldve been better off without it. that is where i really envy people abroad who are allowed to return things easily no questions asked.

 

[tuff]

Center channel speaker is not meant for music. It's for movies only.

Sent from a handheld device. Some typos may creep in

Actually there are some DTS surround music discs that are mixed specifically for 5.1 or above setups.If all your speakers are top grade the music sounds amazing. Here's a link for some available material. Download 5.1 Surround music for home theater. Free music format DVD-Audio, DTS 5.1, SACD-R and some top 100 types. 100 Best Blu-Ray Discs Best Concert/Music Video | Sound & Vision

 

[tuff]

Some more additional material to check out. Roger Waters The Wall Blu-ray Review | High Def Digest
This documentary will blow your mind if you like this genre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQoOfiLz1G4

 

[elangoas]

can you please try a few clips with 'center' set to 'none' and give it a try. would love to hear your feedback on that.

Sure.. Will give it a try & update here..

 

[smedhavi]

The phantom center channel works only in two conditions:

• There would always be only one person in the room, who would sit exactly in the middle (no leaning on the armrest etc. )
• The audience is too far back to bother (like >2x the distance between the two front speakers)

Having said that, the quality of the center speakers is the most important, as that represents most of the stuff on the screen, rest of the speakers are mostly used for effects. A low quality center speaker is suicidal in audio terms. Unfortunately, the boxy sounds are very common, as typically the speaker manufactures making HT packages do not invest enough of your money in the center channel. If you look at my signature below, I have been using the Monitor Audio Gold series center (GSLCR) with the Silver Series Fronts (RS6) and surrounds. The single center speaker actually costed me more than the two front speakers put together, and the investment was worth it.




Now that I have just built new single driver front speakers, I also built matching center speakers (may sell almost everything listed in my signature below whenever I get time). The shape and orientation (vertical/horizontal) of the center speakers is of very little concern.

On Flickr

My comments above are for movies and multi-channel audio. For stereo or mono music, never use any more speakers than your front mains.

 

[filmguy]

Sure.. Will give it a try & update here..

waiting to hear it

The phantom center channel works only in two conditions:

• There would always be only one person in the room, who would sit exactly in the middle (no leaning on the armrest etc. )
• The audience is too far back to bother (like >2x the distance between the two front speakers)

Having said that, the quality of the center speakers is the most important, as that represents most of the stuff on the screen, rest of the speakers are mostly used for effects. A low quality center speaker is suicidal in audio terms. Unfortunately, the boxy sounds are very common, as typically the speaker manufactures making HT packages do not invest enough of your money in the center channel. If you look at my signature below, I have been using the Monitor Audio Gold series center (GSLCR) with the Silver Series Fronts (RS6) and surrounds. The single center speaker actually costed me more than the two front speakers put together, and the investment was worth it.




[/I]

sweet setup bud

 

[smedhavi]

sweet setup bud

That's the old setup The Monitor Audio's may have to go now, as I have the new bigger speakers seen in the second picture.

 

[saikatbiswas82]

That's the old setup The Monitor Audio's may have to go now, as I have the new bigger speakers seen in the second picture.

Tannoy Turnberry s I believe.

Which amp are you pairing them with?

Sent from a handheld device. Some typos may creep in