Clarification and Explanation

[mridulgoel]

Based on the past few days, a number of people have PMed me, called me and sent me emails. I sensed some confusion, some dismay, and even loss of, what Suri so eloquently calls, innocence.

As all of you are my friends, I take it upon myself to provide an explanation of what was done.

(1) Regarding the Banning: Please understand that we take 'banning' as the last step. Very strangely in this case most of the people banned, so to say, wanted to exit from HFV. Cranky, AE, Sidharth Trehan, and Asit repeatedly requested that they be removed from the forum. So we consented and acted upon it. Asit consequently requested that he wants to continue and he was brought back immediately.

Suri is a HFV friend of mine and one I have met during the Bangalore meeting. He was locked out and literally immediate reinstated. This has nothing to do with the above issue nor what some think of as his poetical capabilities. Suri was involved in a minor but serious transgression of rules. He was locked out and once he gave an explanation, he was reinstated immediately.

SoundsGreat has been locked out for a serious violation of rules.

Venkat & Anil

Put in a script in System, which gives 3 Warning to the Particular User, and @ the 4th mistake the User is temporarily banned from the Forum. How they will be banned is that they will not be allowed to Post/Comment/Start New Thread/PM/Recieve PM, etc...But they can still Login, and read the posts...
Let this Duration be for One Month, after that we can give one chance to the User, and if they repeat the same, after one mistake we can ban them... Kicking of the users, doesn't help the Forum nor the Members nor the Resellers...

Regarding Soundsgreat plz send me the link, where he has broken serious rules...
I think giving Serious warnings or short term ban is much better than Locking some one out, and deleting there Post. You are just aggravating the Members, as Sreekanth is a Qualified Sound Engg, and has made quite good stuff, and is technically strong as well...
So, Kindly restore him, and provide him a warning for whatever he has done...

(2) Regarding the Forum Rule No. 3 that goes as "If any member makes any accusations about any retailer/manufacturer/distributor/dealer or individual member, they must first submit a verified/certified photo identity
proof of their full name and address to forums admin along with verified/certified proof of the accusation. It's easy to exaggerate the events to favour your side of the story, but ultimately this is not the truth if you cannot backup your accusations without proof. Posting any such information without relevant proof will lead to your immediate ban without any warning."

This rule has been introduced after we have had innumerable instances of negative remarks that are aggressive, and to a large extent, written either in spite, or to belittle a company, person, product, or service. For a long time there has been a rule that states, "You may not use discussions to recommend, praise, or belittle other products or services, or any company; without first hand experience of those products or services. All complaints against any product seller or service provider must be accompanied by authentic documentary evidence and can only be posted in the forums after the permission of the administrator. Any post not meeting a moderator's criteria will be removed without notice."

Unfortunately no one seemed to take this rule seriously. I have noted words like 'rip off', 'sham', 'cheater', 'Chandni Chowk' and so many other derogatory remarks that are made in anger. This is not acceptable. If you have a complaint against an entity, it has to be worded properly and written decently. Most important serious allegations against an entity must be made only when you have proof and AFTER getting permission from the moderators.

The new rule has been set to be deterrent against people who write without using their head. This does not mean you cannot write about a entity you do not like. But that has to be your opinion, and you opinion has to be explained properly and with some form of evidence. Let me give you an example.

Quoting Something wrong about the dealer or the reseller is something is a serious issue...But i think the restrictions put in are a bit harsh...
True that they shudnt be using any comments mentioned above, but they should be allowed to describe what exactly happened with them, with dates, contact person, products, and there name and obviously time, so that even the particular reseller present on the forum can even justify there point...So it will not be one sided...
And in case the post by the user is found negative, they will be given a warning, and in case the user lies completely about even being there, they will be banned for same, one month...

What is acceptable:

"I auditioned X amplifier today. I did not like the sound as it seemed to be bloated, and pushing the high frequencies too much. At a cursory glance, I came away thinking that the quality of the cabinet, connectors, and other parts could have been better. Even the remote seemed to be made of inexpensive plastic, that to my mind, seemed easily breakable'

What is NOT acceptable:

"I auditioned X amplifier today. I tell you guys, this company is the pitsand are on the verge of closure. They have picked up rejected material from Chandni Chowk, thrown away knobs, cheap plastic connectors and put together a box. The cabinet was crap. the remote was also crap. The capacitors inside were not worth more than 2 Rupees. I tell you, these people are cheats and taking you for a ride........" and so on.

Completely Agree on this Point...

HFV is a fun place for all of us. Yes, losing friends is always difficult. But remember only if we are decent and if we follow rules will our roads be clean and easily traversable. We will make more friends, not only from India, but across the whole world. We will prevail and continue to grow.

I am curious to see how many meaningful and productive replies I get here.

Cheers

Apart from this, we need to make sure that we put in the following rules :
1). No User Should be allowed to disclose the prices they got the particular product @, specially the exact amount. Yes they can say that we have got 5-10% or 8-12% off from MRP, or something like that. Every individual has there bargaining capacity and every reseller is there to earn, and it all depends on the comfort level between the reseller and the customer...So by placing the prices, you are just putting up the product price specific...This practice shud be stopped...Users are free to Post any offers, schemes going on with any reseller, but definitely not the discount...

2). People commenting on Overseas Purchase thru some website, etc, shud scan and place the bill of complete amount paid...Otherwise most of the members on the forum, start talking and favoring the half knowledged stuff, and blame the resellers...

Once this Forum is growing, somethings, needs to be strict...which favours each n evry one...

 

[santhosh]

This is a thankless job. One in which you will lose more friends than you are making. You cannot take sides, must be fair to everyone, and deftly handle highly emotional outbursts of people.

Cheers

Venkat, indeed it a difficult job, especially in such crisis situations. Let me assure you that all the members I spoke to during these times agreed. Our thoughts were with you. Thank you for your efforts Venkat, Hifivision and Madbullram.

 

[mridulgoel]

Reg Rule No. 3....

If a Users Report is justified, then its automatically a big loss for the Reseller,
reseller doesnt look for one customer, so, if one customer had bad experience, and when that person is reporting bad about that reseller, automatically his repo and sales will be effected...

What more you want...

Dont kill someone...

As i said everyone has there comfort level...

 

[dinyaar]

Thanks Venkat. Am sure its a thankless job and hence loads of the smart members suggested you

Few points:
The member requesting to leave are not BANNED really. Banned is very different from what I see as a VRS!!! Secondly why does one need the mod to terminate the account? We voluntarily sign up and post so when one does not wish to one does not. Why so much drama? This is not a dig at anyone its just my opinion.

I for one will miss cranky's posts as they were very informative. Why oh Why did he insist on taking this with him I will never know. Apart from making tons of threads incomplete it was valuable info for all to benefit from.

One more thing I find is that most members take criticism of their gear tooooooooo personally. Does it really matter if X or Y does not rate ur gear highly? Absolutely not. When I had the Brystons tons of my friends called it a PA amp but that didnt bother me for the 10 years that I have had the 4BST!! If there is some malice behind the opinion/review then its a different issue alltogether.

Lastly what about Mr AE? Naturally I figure that he too has asked for VRS. If what ever I read about the review (that never happened) or the degrees from MIT (that were never there) is true its a total fraud !!!! How will we as a forum verify tall claims in future to spare tons of new comers and others from similar instances? I know Asit & Suri are back and am glad for that but I wonder what dear SG did that got him banned for good? I am not questioning the mods as they ARE THE AUTHORITY HERE but is it not possible to warn guys before a BAN esp since we are a 'young' forum and loads of guys are still learning the ropes.

I personally do not like too much 'moderation'. I like to give an honest opinion when asked. Now if its a negative opinion on some gear will I have the freedom to express it here? Or will I be labelled as a product basher? For Ex is my dislike for the brand Cyrus esp the amps. There is nothing more to it but the fact that I have heard them in many applications and I DONT LIKE THEM.

Anyway am just thinking out aloud and not trying to rub people up.

Rgds

 

[venkatcr]

Let me try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

a) There was no clear stand taken on Audio_Engineer. We had some proof, but there is still some haze around whether Audio_engineer is guilty as charged. This needs to be clarified. Does not have to be a blanket statement, but we need to get an idea of what the consensus is.

HFV is not taking any stand here. Some fingers were pointed against AE, and it was up to him to clarify his position. He did not do that. Instead he asked that his ID be deleted and he went about deleting his posts. All HFV did was to stem the allegations and counter allegations that were gathering momentum and stopping members from participating in a productive way.

b) In Viren's thread, photographs of accused members were put up by someone (can't remember who, but does not matter). I felt so bad for members in the photographs, as they were being defamed with their real life photographs. IMO, it is just not good netiquette to post pictures without their consent. Members have a right to remain anonymous, we should respect that.

Again this was an act by a member. Subsequently we deleted the complete thread.

c) AE has deleted his own posts and Cranky requested that his posts be given back to him. I can understand AE may have wanted to remove his trail. But I just don't understand Cranky's request. Did he think he is above the forum? Afterall, he is a mere student of the internet like we all are. If Cranky feels so important, wonder how scientists and inventors should feel. Fortunately, they are very humble and have their heads on their shoulders. I had a lot of respect for him and his knowledge, but not any more. Like Psychotropic wrote, we will be fine, just a matter of time. We will have many more knowledgable members.

Human behaviour is fragile. People do many things when they are not thinking with their heads. Though personally as Venkat, I would have like his posts to be there for our knowledge and understanding, we decided to end the controversy by removing his posts.

HFV is a large community with thousands of members, innumerable visitors and is growing day by day. If I tell you the number of hits we have every day, you will all be proud to be members. All I can say is, be proud you are a member of HFV. It is unique and has one of the largest visitation in the region (Please don't ask me the number). Over the last 24 odd months that I have been involved, I have seen innumerable people take the plunge into HiFi and into HT reading recommendations and suggestions here. How many people have purchased speakers, amplifiers, TVs, AVRs, connectors, and cables they have never heard of before? Believe me, I would not be surprised if it runs into a few crores. How many people have understood what music is and have upgraded their systems. How many people have save themselves headaches and unnecessary hassles by short listing products they have read about here?

For me the happiness and satisfaction that we, as a community, have provided to these people is more important that anything else.

Audio and video technology is open information and is available to anyone who is interested. I am sure we will certainly have more members contributing on a regular basis. As an individual I will do my best, but where I am bested, I am sure a large number of others will chip in.

d) Editing should be reduced to 20 minutes like in most forums. People can always make another post if they have made a mistake.

As I mentioned before we will watch the current timing for a while and modify it when needed.

Let me assure you we are working very hard to make HFV more exciting. Of course, as members, your contributions are paramount.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

I personally do not like too much 'moderation'. I like to give an honest opinion when asked. Now if its a negative opinion on some gear will I have the freedom to express it here? Or will I be labelled as a product basher? For Ex is my dislike for the brand Cyrus esp the amps. There is nothing more to it but the fact that I have heard them in many applications and I DONT LIKE THEM.

Dinyaar, a Bryston being labelled as a PA? Now I have heard everything.

I have already clarified that every member is open to write his personal opinion about products and services. When this crosses a line, we will be forced to act.

Cheers

 

[srinisundar]

Venkat Sir,

As told earlier, I feel editing option is necessary for the "Classified" section, where there are mulitiple products are under sale.

It will give option to remove the sold products alone and leave the unsold one( eg.. my case BD's ).

Everybody wish to see the first post containing the item which were peding for sale and also updated frequently ( this is followed by all(most) forums, where classified sections are available)

Regards

 

[gobble]

No offense to the mods, but it was really a bad decision to remove the posts from the members, there are live threads also from where posts were removed. I was checking out for my diy subwoofer thread, in which cranky helped me out very actively. Now all the posts are gone and just an empty shell of a thread remains. I just dont get the rationale behind removing all the posts. All the wealth of info posted by these members is gone, violating the integrity of a lot of threads. specially the DIY community will be a lot poorer, since most of these members were very active there. I am thinking about making cables of my own, but where is the anaconda thread? its gone. Someone wants to make TL sub, but the almighty is gone...

BTW, I never read the thread in which all this 'galata' happened, and now since its been removed, I would never know why these members were banned, and dont have a way of knowing if the ban was justified or not. I guess I dont have a right to make up my mind on these issues here.

Hmm come to think of it, I think this was a calculated request on the OP's part, to reduce the Internet search ranking of HFV

Just a passing thought (with a moron wrapped around it? )....

Regards

 

[stevieboy]

hi santhol2,

it was me who put up that pic.

hi asit,

since i've refused pm conversation in another thread, insisting on open answers on issues on the forum it's also incumbent on me to follow the same rule

that pic was already in the public domain, put up in cranky's post. i had labelled all the persons, following the labelling that cranky himself had one for the pic, little realizing the other persons in the pic would feel targetted. after all even pratimbayal who was also mentioned in the pic is not even a party all this. in retrospect i could have edited the pic to the relevant person about whom the thread was.

an unconditional apology for whatever hurt you felt. you were never the target in that post.

regards
steve

 

[magma]

venkat
please stand by your temporary decsion of the 24 hrs edit time limit
Yes other forums have a shorter gap, that doesnt mean they are correct

we are a young forum, we would require time to mature
My father has always said " sleep over it " when im angry about something
the 24hrs allow that

Also most /all members probably goto work and logon only once a day
if they have posted something and they feel it was incorrect they would probably do it ontheir next logon which would be the next day.

Also if no one remembers we got on fine( well almost fine upto recently ) with an INDEFINITE edit policy

24hrs is decent

the other issue has been Pmed

 

[venkatcr]

We will see Srini. We will do the best we can.

Thanks.

Cheers

 

[Sujit]

I have the following suggestions to make regarding our classifieds section.

1. Where multiple products are being sold - some editing facility beyond the 24hrs may have to be given - so that the list can be updated with what is available. In case this is not possible, then the OP can always put up another post with updates.

2. I see a lot of threads alive where the products that have already been sold. I would like the thread OPs to please modify the title accordingly (adding SOLD to the title) and to lock the thread down.

If the OPs cannot do that, then they can flag the post and the moderators will have to do it for them!

 

[psychotropic]

I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea that any posts you make you assign all copyright to hifivision. I advise several internet companies (including some really large ones) and regularly draft and review terms of use and an internet service that relies on user generated content usually only takes a license from the user and not an assignment. I think this needs to be rethought by the powers that be. For instance if I make a long post here and I look at it and think, hey i think that would look nice on my blog....I should be able to post it on my blog, or send it to a magazine. The current forum rules would prevent that as hifivision would own all rights over the content.

There is a serious difference between assigning/granting/giving away copyright and providing a license. All hifivision needs is a license. Seeking an assignment is not only unfair and overly restrictive, it's contrary to the best practices found on the internet and goes against the collaborative spirit in which a forum like hifivision ought to function.

my two cents.

 

[stevieboy]

I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea that any posts you make you assign all copyright to hifivision. I advise several internet companies (including some really large ones) and regularly draft and review terms of use and an internet service that relies on user generated content usually only takes a license from the user and not an assignment. I think this needs to be rethought by the powers that be. For instance if I make a long post here and I look at it and think, hey i think that would look nice on my blog....I should be able to post it on my blog, or send it to a magazine. The current forum rules would prevent that as hifivision would own all rights over the content.

There is a serious difference between assigning/granting/giving away copyright and providing a license. All hifivision needs is a license. Seeking an assignment is not only unfair and overly restrictive, it's contrary to the best practices found on the internet and goes against the collaborative spirit in which a forum like hifivision ought to function.

my two cents.

psychotropic, hifivision, venkat,

my suggestion is psychotropic actually draft up/correct the existing usage policy for the forum which will actually get things done the right way. i too am extremely concerned about the forum taking copyright over what i write. the writer always has copyright control over what he's written, it's his intellectual property, given to the forum for publishing, unless the creator relinquishes copyright control for a fee.

i understand why the mods have made this provision, but psychotropic by wording it right can protect both the forum and individuals. and perhaps if it involves a bit of work, he ought to be paid his regular fee as a consultant by the forum for this job! just so psychotropic doesn't feel imposed on psychotropic the mods can decide that between themselves offline.

regards

edit: some might not know but psychotropic is a lawyer hence my suggestion. the professional eye

 

[anm]

copyright should be of the poster. By posting here, one is only giving hifivision permission to publish his thoughts/ posts. Extending that logic, one should also be free to delete his posts, though I understand that posts deleted by cranky is a big loss to all of us.

I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea that any posts you make you assign all copyright to hifivision. I advise several internet companies (including some really large ones) and regularly draft and review terms of use and an internet service that relies on user generated content usually only takes a license from the user and not an assignment. I think this needs to be rethought by the powers that be. For instance if I make a long post here and I look at it and think, hey i think that would look nice on my blog....I should be able to post it on my blog, or send it to a magazine. The current forum rules would prevent that as hifivision would own all rights over the content.

There is a serious difference between assigning/granting/giving away copyright and providing a license. All hifivision needs is a license. Seeking an assignment is not only unfair and overly restrictive, it's contrary to the best practices found on the internet and goes against the collaborative spirit in which a forum like hifivision ought to function.

my two cents.

 

[asliarun]

I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea that any posts you make you assign all copyright to hifivision. I advise several internet companies (including some really large ones) and regularly draft and review terms of use and an internet service that relies on user generated content usually only takes a license from the user and not an assignment. I think this needs to be rethought by the powers that be. For instance if I make a long post here and I look at it and think, hey i think that would look nice on my blog....I should be able to post it on my blog, or send it to a magazine. The current forum rules would prevent that as hifivision would own all rights over the content.

There is a serious difference between assigning/granting/giving away copyright and providing a license. All hifivision needs is a license. Seeking an assignment is not only unfair and overly restrictive, it's contrary to the best practices found on the internet and goes against the collaborative spirit in which a forum like hifivision ought to function.

my two cents.

I never realized that this was the case!

Just read the copyright policy which states:

"Content Copyright
By registering with the India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum you consent that all the content you create on the HiFiVision.com is free of copyright at the point of submission to the HiFiVision.com and becomes property of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum and the owners of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum upon submission to www.HiFiVision.com."

Sorry, HFV, this is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth.

Almost all of the content generated in this forum is by members who are mostly doing this with a purely altruistic intention to help others with their knowledge and expertise.

Are they spending all their effort and energy only to completely let go of the copyright of their own content, and so that some other individual or commercial body can benefit from this for free?? As your policy stands right now, it completely goes against general internet forum ethics.

For the record, I think this forum is a wonderful place that has and will benefit thousands of clueless newbies including myself, but ONLY because many many other experienced members have shown the willingness and tremendous patience to educate and guide others through their posts and replies. There is a big element of trust that is placed in forums like this that binds people together and makes them help others willingly, even when they are being monitored and moderated. However, trust is also a two-way street.

To turn this around, if you claim full copyright of all content in the forum, what right does that give you to tell people how and what to post. After they clicked the button, as per your policy, this is your content, after all, and no longer theirs, as they made a free donation to your website by clicking the submit button. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm just telling it the way I see it.

 

[psychotropic]

hey stevie, i suddenly feel like a bit of a windbag for saying that shit about advising companies, i was just trying to say that I've seen a few of these and this particular ToS is extraordinary.

My humble suggestion would be that instead of:

By registering with the India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum you consent that all the content you create on the HiFiVision.com is free of copyright at the point of submission to the HiFiVision.com and becomes property of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum and the owners of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum upon submission to India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum.

I would recommend (quick and dirty, but should do the trick in the absence of a comprehensive redrafting):

By registering with the India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum you grant to HiFiVision.com and the owners of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum a non-exclusive, royalty-free license over all content posted by you on India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum, to display, copy and modify such content for the purposes of operating India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum and all functions relating thereto.

Typically sites also allow you to remove content you have posted when you exit and that would feature in this clause, but that's a policy decision that will have to be taken, so I've restricted the above language to the license part of things.

 

[psychotropic]

hey arun, i don't think this much thought went into drafting that clause. Anil spends money out of his own pocket to keep this forum running and advertising (and donations) only covers a small part of the operating costs. He can genuinely claim to be doing us a favour, but he won't

I think this was just a quickfix solution to avoid a cranky-like situation of someone leaving and deleting all their posts, and the implications were not fully thought out. I am certain that on reading these posts the terms of use will be amended suitably.

I never realized that this was the case!

Just read the copyright policy which states:

"Content Copyright
By registering with the India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum you consent that all the content you create on the HiFiVision.com is free of copyright at the point of submission to the HiFiVision.com and becomes property of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum and the owners of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum upon submission to www.HiFiVision.com."

Sorry, HFV, this is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth.

Almost all of the content generated in this forum is by members who are mostly doing this with a purely altruistic intention to help others with their knowledge and expertise.

Are they spending all their effort and energy only to completely let go of the copyright of their own content, and so that some other individual or commercial body can benefit from this for free?? As your policy stands right now, it completely goes against general internet forum ethics.

For the record, I think this forum is a wonderful place that has and will benefit thousands of clueless newbies including myself, but ONLY because many many other experienced members have shown the willingness and tremendous patience to educate and guide others through their posts and replies. There is a big element of trust that is placed in forums like this that binds people together and makes them help others willingly, even when they are being monitored and moderated. However, trust is also a two-way street.

To turn this around, if you claim full copyright of all content in the forum, what right does that give you to tell people how and what to post. After they clicked the button, as per your policy, this is your content, after all, and no longer theirs, as they made a free donation to your website by clicking the submit button. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm just telling it the way I see it.

 

[stevieboy]

hey stevie, i suddenly feel like a bit of a windbag for saying that shit about advising companies, i was just trying to say that I've seen a few of these and this particular ToS is extraordinary.

My humble suggestion would be that instead of:

By registering with the India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum you consent that all the content you create on the HiFiVision.com is free of copyright at the point of submission to the HiFiVision.com and becomes property of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum and the owners of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum upon submission to India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum.

I would recommend (quick and dirty, but should do the trick in the absence of a comprehensive redrafting):

By registering with the India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum you grant to HiFiVision.com and the owners of India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum a non-exclusive, royalty-free license over all content posted by you on India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum, to display, copy and modify such content for the purposes of operating India's Audio Video Home Theatre and Hi-Fi Discussion Forum and all functions relating thereto.

Typically sites also allow you to remove content you have posted when you exit and that would feature in this clause, but that's a policy decision that will have to be taken, so I've restricted the above language to the license part of things.

psychotropic i knew you'd come up with something fair to everyone! you certainly shouldn't feel that way, you've got the necessary background and it's your profession so you'd certainly be able to give the rules a professional touch.

regards and hoping hifivision supermod and venkat amend the rules accordingly.

regards

 

[Sujit]

Typically sites also allow you to remove content you have posted when you exit and that would feature in this clause, but that's a policy decision that will have to be taken, so I've restricted the above language to the license part of things.

I am a member of multiple forums for the past decade. I have not come across a single forum that allows/considers deletion of posts on exit. (Honestly I have never seen anyone asking for it either!)

Have you?