Clarification and Explanation

[venkatcr]

Based on the past few days, a number of people have PMed me, called me and sent me emails. I sensed some confusion, some dismay, and even loss of what, Suri so eloquently calls, innocence.

As all of you are my friends, I take it upon myself to provide an explanation of what was done.

(1) Regarding the Banning: Please understand that we take 'banning' as the last step. Very strangely in this case most of the people banned, so to say, wanted to exit from HFV. Cranky, AE, Sidharth Trehan, and Asit repeatedly requested that they be removed from the forum. So we consented and acted upon it. Asit consequently requested that he wants to continue and he was brought back immediately.

Suri is a HFV friend of mine and one I have met during the Bangalore meeting. He was locked out and literally immediate reinstated. This has nothing to do with the above issue nor what some think of as his poetical capabilities. Suri was involved in a minor but serious transgression of rules. He was locked out and once he gave an explanation, he was reinstated immediately.

SoundsGreat has been locked out for a serious violation of rules.

(2) Regarding the Forum Rule No. 3 that goes as "If any member makes any accusations about any retailer/manufacturer/distributor/dealer or individual member, they must first submit a verified/certified photo identity proof of their full name and address to forums admin along with verified/certified proof of the accusation. It's easy to exaggerate the events to favour your side of the story, but ultimately this is not the truth if you cannot backup your accusations without proof. Posting any such information without relevant proof will lead to your immediate ban without any warning."

This rule has been introduced after we have had innumerable instances of negative remarks that are aggressive, and to a large extent, written either in spite, or to belittle a company, person, product, or service. For a long time there has been a rule that states, "You may not use discussions to recommend, praise, or belittle other products or services, or any company; without first hand experience of those products or services. All complaints against any product seller or service provider must be accompanied by authentic documentary evidence and can only be posted in the forums after the permission of the administrator. Any post not meeting a moderator's criteria will be removed without notice."

Unfortunately no one seemed to take this rule seriously. I have noted words like 'rip off', 'sham', 'cheater', 'Chandni Chowk' and so many other derogatory remarks that are made in anger. This is not acceptable. If you have a complaint against an entity, it has to be worded properly and written decently. Most important serious allegations against an entity must be made only when you have proof and AFTER getting permission from the moderators.

The new rule has been set to be a deterrent against people who write without using their head. This does not mean you cannot write about a entity you do not like. But that has to be your opinion, and you opinion has to be explained properly and with some form of evidence. Let me give you an example.

What is acceptable:

"I auditioned X amplifier today. I did not like the sound as it seemed to be bloated, and pushing the high frequencies too much. At a cursory glance, I came away thinking that the quality of the cabinet, connectors, and other parts could have been better. Even the remote seemed to be made of inexpensive plastic, that to my mind, seemed easily breakable'

What is NOT acceptable:

"I auditioned X amplifier today. I tell you guys, this company is the pits and are on the verge of closure. They have picked up rejected material from Chandni Chowk, thrown away knobs, cheap plastic connectors and put it all together a box. The cabinet was crap. The remote was also crap. The capacitors inside were not worth more than 2 Rupees. I tell you, these people are cheats and taking you for a ride........" and so on.

HFV is a fun place for all of us. Yes, losing friends is always difficult. But remember only if we are decent and if we follow rules will our roads be clean and easily traversable. We will make more friends, not only from India, but across the whole world. We will prevail and continue to grow.

I am curious to see how many meaningful and productive replies I get here.

Cheers

PS. I must mention that Asit is also a friend of mine. We, along with our spouses, had a wonderful dinner in Chennai when Asit came here on a visit. I found Asit to be a very educated man and one who is extremely principled.

AND, Asit made a single request to be removed from the forum. I stand corrected.

Cheers

 

[teky]

Venkat,

I've a question - If someone has contributed to the forum and has been banned for some reasons or has exited the forum how can they ask their posts to be deleted? Once you've posted the content remains on the public domain, When you type some information you're aware of that. If you have typed something which is intellectual and you want to take it back fine, But why do we allow people to delete all their posts which they have garnered from the Internet. Can we make some amendments to rules stating this, I don't want to see anymore childish cry on HFV.

Also the time frame to edit threads of 24 hours is bit in higher side. I would recommend anywhere close of 1-2 hours, This my opinion - we could possibly ask the members opinion as well.

 

[mahiruha]

Hi Venkat,
thanks for the clarification. Really appreciate it.I have always believed in life we have to be decent individuals first then music , movies and other stuff.There will always be difference of opinions but it has to be sorted (if needed )in a decent manner. Now there can be confusion regarding definition of decency so it is better to have clear rules with examples.
Thanks.

 

[svenkateshsmart]

Hi,

I really appreciate your explanation and thanks for that. I second Teky's suggestion. For example, no shame in admitting that, as a newbie I have started some threads and the only thing I did was to create an empty thread on a topic and subsequently lot of members chipped in and filled the thread with tips, tricks and so on. Tomorrow, if I decide to quit and I want my threads to be deleted, so what about others who spent time and efforts to post their suggestions? You very well know that some of them here read through threads and posts like Owls, midnight 1 a.m., 2.a.m. So, I suggest that once they post something here, it stays here, right here. Let there be a new rule!

If there is a thread containing only one post or some DIY skill, no issues, let the person take his property along with him!

Also, one must take prior permission of the cocerned member before posting one's photograph (not if itz taken in an official "Hifivision" meet). It is not definitely a good gesture to post someone's photographs in a public forum, especially in a situation like what it had been a few days ago.

Cheers!

 

[Asit]

Hi Venkat,

I never asked the mods to disable my accounts repeatedly. I did that only once by a PM to you.

Later I decided to stay in the forum and in a post (http://www.hifivision.com/announcements/9500-light-recent-happenings-5.html#post129657) openly and explicitly explained my position and stated that I wanted to stay in the forum.

I know you had a very busy time recently and I totally understand your position. If you can, kindly edit the above post for the facts to be correct.

If you have not forgotten, we have also met. You and your wife came down from Chennai to our resort last October to meet my wife and me and have dinner .

Sorry, I could not come to the forum at all today due to work pressure. The pending answer/report hence is taking a bit more time. Thanks Venkat for the allowance in the other thread.
Regards.

 

[alcy]

IMHO, there is a need for more moderators. Not just a stringent and upgraded set of rules.

The situation that we find ourselves in right now, could have been possibly avoided had there been more moderators who could have notified the members involved, about their inappropriate nature of posts. It puts too much pressure on one person (or three, but effectively one), to control so many members AND their point of views.

 

[iaudio]

Venkat, thanks for the clarification. But I am still not clear on Soundsgreat's ban.

On another automotive forum, where one can edit posts for only 10 minutes after it is submitted, I always used to think why it was so, but now I have seen light and I support Teky when he says a window period of 1-2 hours is enough.

Please do not allow people to go away with whole threads and posts! It is a big blow to all of us too who might have contributed alongwith it. This is just not acceptable. I am sure Venkat, you will find a solution for this.
Alcy is right when he says more mods are needed. You are one overworked man, Venkat.

 

[jai1611]

(2) Regarding the Forum Rule No. 3 that goes as "If any member makes any accusations about any retailer/manufacturer/distributor/dealer or individual member, they must first submit a verified/certified photo identity proof of their full name and address to forums admin along with verified/certified proof of the accusation. It's easy to exaggerate the events to favour your side of the story, but ultimately this is not the truth if you cannot backup your accusations without proof. Posting any such information without relevant proof will lead to your immediate ban without any warning."

Isnt this rule very one sided? If a member wants to complain about a dealer, he has to practically jump through hoops but if someone wants to unduly promote a dealer, he doesnt need to even demonstrate that he has ever dealt with them. Seems very open to abuse by unethical dealers/retailers who could create false ids to promote their products (I think we have had some minor instances of this in the past).

 

[spirovious]

Thanks Venkatr,now everything must be cleared.
Now forum can be enjoyable from here onwards.

 

[Hiten]

Isnt this rule very one sided? If a member wants to complain about a dealer, he has to practically jump through hoops but if someone wants to unduly promote a dealer, he doesnt need to even demonstrate that he has ever dealt with them. Seems very open to abuse by unethical dealers/retailers who could create false ids to promote their products (I think we have had some minor instances of this in the past).

That's a very good point.

 

[venkatcr]

I've a question - If someone has contributed to the forum and has been banned for some reasons or has exited the forum how can they ask their posts to be deleted?

With the new rule of not allowing any changes after 24 hours this rule is effectively in place. If we need to fine tune the rule even more, we shall do so.

Also the time frame to edit threads of 24 hours is bit in higher side. I would recommend anywhere close of 1-2 hours, This my opinion - we could possibly ask the members opinion as well.

We considered everything from 0 minute(s) (is zero singular or plural?) to 1 month. The 24 hours is a kind of experimentation. We will watch the behaviour of people for some time and then change the rule, if needed.

Cheers

 

[sqvare]

Venkat,

I support teky's view that posts, once made, should not be removable. An edit window of 1-2 hours is acceptable, as many folk (guilty!) soon have second thoughts about their phrasing and/or factual accuracy, and correctional posts just add to the clutter.

I'm leery of the restriction of free speech implicit in Rule# 3. I believe that members should voluntarily exercise due discretion, and be mindful of posting anything that may be considered libellous or inflammatory. Every member must also keep in mind that they are accountable for their posts, both within the forum and under the laws of the land, since posts appear in search engine results and can be seen by anyone. And especially so when all know that their posts cannot be removed, are effectively evidence, and will be part of history!

So to paraphrase the old carpenter's rule: think twice, post once

Oh, and if some aggrieved party initiates legal action against a poster, I understand that the forum is bound under the IT Act to disclose to querying (legally authorized) entities all information that it holds about the member, even if the information known is only the IP address. I don't think the forum is responsible (or required by law) to investigate the credentials of forum users. Though, not being a lawyer, I may be all wrong here...

 

[venkatcr]

Isnt this rule very one sided? If a member wants to complain about a dealer, he has to practically jump through hoops but if someone wants to unduly promote a dealer, he doesnt need to even demonstrate that he has ever dealt with them. Seems very open to abuse by unethical dealers/retailers who could create false ids to promote their products (I think we have had some minor instances of this in the past).

The rule for this is already there. You cannot promote any company, product, or services unless the company itself is registered with HFV as a sponsor.

It is precisely to stop the unethical practices that could be done by people that we are protecting ourselves. A negative note is much more dangerous and liable to libel than a positive note.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

If you have not forgotten, we have also met. You and your wife came down from Chennai to our resort last October to meet my wife and me and have dinner .

My apologies Asit. Neither my wife nor I can forget the wonderful time we had together at Fisherman's Cove. And I will always cherish the DVD of Pather Panchali that you gave me.

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

Well put together message, Venkat. Appreciate what you are doing and what you have been doing for the last few days. It cannot have been easy to see the relationships that you have seen being built up over many months just going to pieces in a matter of a few hours.

I think we have a somewhat solid framework in place now. Although I would definitely have loved it if we had stood against any request to remove posts of an outgoing member. But yes, you explained the whys and the wherefores and I understand.

Folks, I know the rule is stringent sounding but I think we can still speak our mind about any product or dealer as long as we are being both decent and fair. That was my understanding based on a conversation with Venkat yesterday. Lets get back to AV, friends. And thank you Venkat and Anil for keeping house laboriously and steadfastly.

 

[venkatcr]

IMHO, there is a need for more moderators.

This is a thankless job. One in which you will lose more friends than you are making. You cannot take sides, must be fair to everyone, and deftly handle highly emotional outbursts of people.

Cheers

 

[srinisundar]

Ok, rule for outburst and promoting an dealer from member end is there,,, what about from your end( Hifivision), whether you will verify the credentials of the dealer or their past records in other forums before accepting here as genuine dealer or distributor?

How can we safe in buying with the registered dealer of an hifivision, so for that purpose also we need a check from your end, before accepting them as a authorised dealer/ distributor.

Hope the above is not against any rules and it will benifit us..

The rule for this is already there. You cannot promote any company, product, or services unless the company itself is registered with HFV as a sponsor.

It is precisely to stop the unethical practices that could be done by people that we are protecting ourselves. A negative note is much more dangerous and liable to libel than a positive note.

Cheers

 

[doors666]

No offense to the mods, but it was really a bad decision to remove the posts from the members, there are live threads also from where posts were removed. I was checking out for my diy subwoofer thread, in which cranky helped me out very actively. Now all the posts are gone and just an empty shell of a thread remains. I just dont get the rationale behind removing all the posts. All the wealth of info posted by these members is gone, violating the integrity of a lot of threads. specially the DIY community will be a lot poorer, since most of these members were very active there. I am thinking about making cables of my own, but where is the anaconda thread? its gone. Someone wants to make TL sub, but the almighty is gone...

BTW, I never read the thread in which all this 'galata' happened, and now since its been removed, I would never know why these members were banned, and dont have a way of knowing if the ban was justified or not. I guess I dont have a right to make up my mind on these issues here.

 

[venkatcr]

I'm leery of the restriction of free speech implicit in Rule# 3. I believe that members should voluntarily exercise due discretion, and be mindful of posting anything that may be considered libellous or inflammatory. Every member must also keep in mind that they are accountable for their posts, both within the forum and under the laws of the land, since posts appear in search engine results and can be seen by anyone. And especially so when all know that their posts cannot be removed, are effectively evidence, and will be part of history!

Let me put it this way. If anyone can guarantee that every thread created and every post made is done after due discretion, we will remove the rules.

I, in particular, love free speech. For me HFV is more like a home where I spend close to 6 hours or more a day. I love the information I can get here. I love doing research to answer a query as that again is information for me. At the same time I know my limits both technically and in terms of what I can say. Last year I got into a major fracas with a international manufacturer. I was frustrated. At the same time I knew I cannot go about bad mouthing the manufacturer as he had a set of rules that I had not followed.

How I wish everyone will able to show restraint. But till we see that happening, HFV has to protect itself and all its members. That is, unfortunately, reality.

Cheers

 

[santhosh]

Thanks Venkat for the clarity. Like iaudio has mentioned, you are indeed overworked and I can truely understand the pressure you may have gone through in the last few days. Thanks for your efforts. Bravo!!

We have an urgent need for more moderators. In situations like last weekend, it is impossible for one or even two persons to moderate, given that we all have a life outside Hifivision as well. For Eg: Communication like this one, requires time to compose and lot of co-ordination with other members in the the mod team who may be in a different city or in a different geographical location.

In view of the recent events, there are atleast four different concerns\questions that are bothering me:
a) There was no clear stand taken on Audio_Engineer. We had some proof, but there is still some haze around whether Audio_engineer is guilty as charged. This needs to be clarified. Does not have to be a blanket statement, but we need to get an idea of what the consensus is.
b) In Viren's thread, photographs of accused members were put up by someone (can't remember who, but does not matter). I felt so bad for members in the photographs, as they were being defamed with their real life photographs. IMO, it is just not good netiquette to post pictures without their consent. Members have a right to remain anonymous, we should respect that.
c) AE has deleted his own posts and Cranky requested that his posts be given back to him. I can understand AE may have wanted to remove his trail. But I just don't understand Cranky's request. Did he think he is above the forum? Afterall, he is a mere student of the internet like we all are. If Cranky feels so important, wonder how scientists and inventors should feel. Fortunately, they are very humble and have their heads on their shoulders. I had a lot of respect for him and his knowledge, but not any more. Like Psychotropic wrote, we will be fine, just a matter of time. We will have many more knowledgable members.
d) Editing should be reduced to 20 minutes like in most forums. People can always make another post if they have made a mistake.

Once again, thanks for the clarification post, it really helped.

Edit: A lot has happened ^ since I started typing this post, so some of it may be repeatitive.