Classifying amplifier brands by sound signature

Revenue models aside, we should not rubbish Denons from this list. The PMA/DCD series of amps and CD players are completely built in Japan (just like their flagship AVRs) and I would invite everybody to listen to them at least once; you would be up for a very pleasant surprise - both visually and sonically.

I would classify them under #5.
 
That's Quite exhausting Classification ; I'd rather try Putting them in 4 Categories. Again most of it is from Listening experience and Some Google research.

1. Live Sounding (Forward, Bold, Exciting) : Naim, Krell, Cyrus, Bryston, CA, Roksan, Audiolab, AP

2. Neutral /Analytical : Most Good Class D, Hegel, Rotel, Parasound

3. Warmer Side of Neutral : Plinius, Hegel, Gryphon, Vintage Onkyo, Sansui, NAD AB amps, Rega

4. Warmer /Darker : Class A Amplifiers, Luxman, Accuphase, McIntosh, Pass Labs, Good Tube Amplifiers, AR, Esoteric

These classes are quite broad and for basic understanding purposes, any Amp Can sound different depending upon the Partnering Electronics(Source /Speakers) and finally Cables.
One Aspect is The Premium Or Richer Sound Can be in any of the 4 Classes and so is the Cheaper sound, (The Richness or Premium is akin to watching your own garden in True Oled TVs vs LCD TVs, it just appears Richer on OLED). So Naim may sound premium than Audiolab or Hegel may sound premium over Parasound; in spite of being in the same category. The 2nd aspect is the Control, the amplifier has on speakers, Which also follows the Richness, Amps with Good Control don't sound distorted (read shouty, not clipping) when driven hard or played loud. For ex I never felt McIntosh or Gryphon sounding shouty. The 3rd aspect is Being Musical or involving /engaging which any of the Amplifiers can sound when properly paired with matching electronics.
As usual YMMV...
Useful improvisation/simplification on the classification. This makes more practical sense than the original, especially with the explanation.

A question: What could be non-premium/less richer amps with warmer/darker signature?

P.S. It’s amusing to read strong reactions to ’classification’. I believe it helps, but should be combined with subjectivity (preference), context (system matching) and nuance (myriad of characteristics beyond the primary sound signature) while making decisions.
 
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What's your thought about Marantz class A/B vs their class D reference line? Do they sound different?
I have only heard Marantz class AB amplifiers. Actually till you brought it up I never considered the possibility that Marantz would design class D circuits. Class D reference line sounds like a serious effort. Maybe someone who has this could share?
 
I recently came across this categorization on the Whathifi forums. I realize this is a rather gross high level generalization without consideration of many variables such as type of amplifier, etc but I do feel generally brands and their designers have an overall idea of a design goal wrt the sound. I am curious to know what others on the forum think, and if you agree or disagree with this high level bucketing based on your experience.

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Interesting Thread.

I have ALWAYS been a Firm Believer in "House Sound" and I feel most manufacturers adhere to their version of "Correct" or most desirable sound.

Most of thge descriptions listed are more or less correct, but that would be distracting from the main issue... That a House Sound exists and is consistent with most brands.

It is unfortunate than most publications and reviews rarely admit to the existence and conformance of a house sound. One has to read the review carefully, and also read in between the lines to arrive at or confirm a houise sound.

Not only amplifiers, but all electronics and ecev passives like Cables adhjere to their house sound. As a wag once said, 'Van Den Hul sounds bland n Dul!' (Apologies to Van Den Hul fans ;) )
 
Useful improvisation/simplification on the classification. This makes more practical sense than the original, especially with the explanation.

A question: What could be non-premium/less richer amps with warmer/darker signature?

P.S. It’s amusing to read strong reactions to ’classification’. I believe it helps, but should be combined with subjectivity (preference), context (system matching) and nuance (myriad of characteristics beyond the primary sound signature) while making decisions.
A question: What could be non-premium/less richer amps with warmer/darker signature?

I believe the non premium amps will yield less resolution, poorer sound stage width & depth, etc (with the same warm tonal balance) than products higher up in their range.
 
:) The fact that we bothered to read this OP and respond indicates we all have opinions on this my friend!
Even trying to be different one needs to know what to do so as not to be same same.
In this forum we may perceive ourselves as black sheep, But the rest of the flock is multi colored!

Everyone has opinions is a given, I posted why would you make an opinion based on these classifications. The rest of your post makes no sense. People simply need to follow their own preferences.
 
not sure I believe in these categorizations. IMO the speakers much easier to classify into these categories that amplifiers. Sometimes you think that a 'forward amp' will match with a 'laid back speaker' and vice versa but it doesn't work at all. Wondering how would one objectively measure these classifications or if that is even possible, amplifiers are not supposed to change the frequency response curve at all although each driver has its own distinctive FR curve so wondering if a good amp is simply something that gives out the signal with low distortion and low resonance, secondary harmonics.
 
A question: What could be non-premium/less richer amps with warmer/darker signature?

I believe the non premium amps will yield less resolution, poorer sound stage width & depth, etc (with the same warm tonal balance) than products higher up in their range.
Obviously. But that’s not answering my question.
 
I have only heard Marantz class AB amplifiers. Actually till you brought it up I never considered the possibility that Marantz would design class D circuits. Class D reference line sounds like a serious effort. Maybe someone who has this could share?
They use Hypex modules that are co developed and modified for own design. They will also convert their PM800x into class D in it's next iteration. Interestingly, they never call it class D in their descriptions. Some cryptic description like 'switching rail' etc. And only the power amp section is class D with its own power supply. Reviews are generally effusive, but not seen any technical reviews.
Interestingly many other high end brands like Mask Levinson, PS Audio, Linn etc has gone class D. May be that is the future.
 
SachinChavan said: Obviously. But that’s not answering my question.

Then I guess that I am unable to understand your question. Could you rephase it ?

Are you asking for an EXAMPLE of a non-premium/less richer amps with warmer/darker signature?

If so, then simply look in the same manufacturer's product line, for a lower cost product ...
 
not sure I believe in these categorizations. IMO the speakers much easier to classify into these categories that amplifiers. Sometimes you think that a 'forward amp' will match with a 'laid back speaker' and vice versa but it doesn't work at all. Wondering how would one objectively measure these classifications or if that is even possible, amplifiers are not supposed to change the frequency response curve at all although each driver has its own distinctive FR curve so wondering if a good amp is simply something that gives out the signal with low distortion and low resonance, secondary harmonics.
You said: "Sometimes you think that a 'forward amp' will match with a 'laid back speaker' and vice versa but it doesn't work at all."

I believe that is the result of the amplifier not adequately capable of driving that speaker.
 
Revenue models aside, we should not rubbish Denons from this list. The PMA/DCD series of amps and CD players are completely built in Japan (just like their flagship AVRs) and I would invite everybody to listen to them at least once; you would be up for a very pleasant surprise - both visually and sonically.

I would classify them under #5.
I agree with those models you mention but could be they are ignored all thanks to Sound United marketing Denon as a HT Brand & Marantz as the Hi-Fi one? Guess they are ruining denon's name in the Hifi scene & thats why very few will buy a $5k+ Denon stereo amp, blame it on SU.
 
I agree with those models you mention but could be they are ignored all thanks to Sound United marketing Denon as a HT Brand & Marantz as the Hi-Fi one? Guess they are ruining denon's name in the Hifi scene & thats why very few will buy a $5k+ Denon stereo amp, blame it on SU.
This is so true. In fact even before SU, D&M Holdings (the then parent company) also pushed Denon primarily for HT. So much so, that their flagship PMA-SX range is not even available perhaps nowhere outside Japan.

PMA-SX1 is 50w into 8 ohms and is still Class A/B. There must be something going on with these low power (high cost) Class A/B designs. Never listened to any SX series but one look inside in the pictures, and you know some serious engineering has been put in there.
 
I recently came across this categorization on the Whathifi forums. I realize this is a rather gross high level generalization without consideration of many variables such as type of amplifier, etc but I do feel generally brands and their designers have an overall idea of a design goal wrt the sound. I am curious to know what others on the forum think, and if you agree or disagree with this high level bucketing based on your experience.

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the top end models of Denon should be in No. 7 there/.
 
P.S. It’s amusing to read strong reactions to ’classification’. I believe it helps, but should be combined with subjectivity (preference), context (system matching) and nuance (myriad of characteristics beyond the primary sound signature) while making decisions.
Absolutely this should be highlighted, just by the fact that 2 amps are grouped in the same category doesn't mean they sound similar. There are lots of variables as summarized by you, and they'll still sound different even if all the parameters remain the same. Also, each Category in Classification is basically a Spectrum of Signature rather than a single point. McIntosh may sound warmer than Luxman, Naim may sound more livelier than Audiolab in spite of being in the same group ( in some setup McIntosh may trump Luxman and Vice versa). So, With Variability in amp signature added with the complexity of pairing electronics and the variable levels of last 3 aspects like Richness, Control and Musicality ; you have a plethora of options to choose from and a never ending confusion, or compromises in one or the other parameters.

One quality which partly reduces the confusion is to have a sufficient technical knowledge (Rather Acumen) to read between the lines in Amp Specs charts or measured objective data. Measurements Will get you halfway in the amp selection ( either you should be knowledgeable enough or have a Pal who is), Leaving Signature, Musicality, Control and Richness of presentation for Audition with your Speakers to finally decide. Because, In the end you don't want to end up with Amp with great objective data but uninvolving to you on personal level.
A question: What could be non-premium/less richer amps with warmer/darker signature?
Actually, I Meant the Premium in the sound signature sense not price wise, but I get your question. (From the Reviews) the well made Chinese amps like Audio GD, Xindak and Kinki Studio EX M1 Should fit the bill. There are umpteen boutique Manfacturers from Europe and elsewhere, few lesser known brands (I'm not knowledgeable enough, FMs with experience can chip in with brand names) but reasonably priced so you won't have to break the bank. But being in India, shipping and customs kills the price advantage many times.
Tube Hybrid amplifiers, Acoustic Portrait ones come to mind. But don't expect a good resale value with all these options. Also, Benchmark, Nuprime, newer NAD in Class D depending upon your taste.

Well matched Tube preamp and SS power amp combo punches much above their price point; in fact even a Class D power amplifier sounds better with tube preamp.

Another option is using DRC like Dirac ( not everyone's cup of tea).

Yet another option is going DIY with Premium quality components, again knowledgeable DIY guys can work wonders with their skill set and aptitude. Definitely, There's a downside risk but worth considering. Class A Amplifiers rarely sound bad (in fact sound very Rich and premium), with lots of kit options being available ; DIY class A has quite a good favourable risk /reward ratio.

As the Class A/AB amp technology hasn't changed much in Last 2 decades or so, you're better off with well maintained Flagship (Not Very Old) Vintage Amplifiers. Single owner amplifiers with no service history are pretty easy to recommend. Don't buy the vintage duds, they're no better than current duds.

Hopefully I've answered your question.
 
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the well made Chinese amps like Audio GD, Xindak and Kinki Studio EX M1 Should fit the bill.
Hmm.
There are umpteen boutique Manfacturers from Europe and elsewhere, few lesser known brands
That’s a very helpful tip.
Well matched Tube preamp and SS power amp combo punches much above their price point;
Getting them to match is a difficult task - out of experience. But then there are integrated hybrid amps where the matching has been done by the designer.
Tube Hybrid amplifiers, Acoustic Portrait ones come to mind.
Like this.

Thanks I get an idea now.
 
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