Clearing the fog about streamers?

[sathtom]

Do they all sound the same or different ?
The sound quality of a different streamers digital out being fed to the same rest of the chain kept fixed ,ie cables/ DAC/ AMP /Speaker.
for eg: Chromecast audio / cxnv2 / lumin u1 mini/ lindeman limetree bridge / bluesound node 2i etc

Theoretically 1's and 0's being transmitted at correct time interval should be the same digital signal.

But the 1's and 0's being represented by electric signals, still being affected by the laws of physics- not absolute mathematics.

John darko once said that the 1's and 0's are still analogue representation of a digital signal. Accordingly, even the cable used for digital signal affects the quality of sound , sure for a lesser extent than to an analogue signal. ( there are still two different opinions).

Another important aspect of the streamer will be the power supply. There are some reports which states that allo digione with shanti power supply sounds better than cxnv2 ( i think by John Darko). Most likely it is due to the LPS as CXNV2 does not have LPS.

It then is a comparison whether the difference in jitter of the products compared affects significantly or not -the streaming quality noticeable by the listener.

In the evaluation, as suggested at #36 , it will be useful for the hifi enthusiasts to know the information on SQ of various streamers - considering the same rest of the chain .

The FOG will then be displaced by the candle of light .

We can then buy a streamer of our choice and an external DAC at a later stage, say Denafrips Terminator which is at the pinnacle keeping aside the high end such as dcs etc. - or buy a streamer with builtin dac

cheers

I completely agree on your thoughts. Every streamer is sounding different (atleast slightly) even if we use the same rest of the setup.
A Good Streamer should have below qualities.

1. Good Design, attractive Display Screen and smooth Volume knob like Cambridge Audio EVO 75.
2. Should support all HiRes streaming services as well as the popular but basic streaming services like Blusound.
3. Should have their own UI like Bluos.
4. It should support Harddisk connectivity for playing local files with good indexing capability like CXN v2.
5. Should support chromcast, Airplay, Upnp/DLNA & Roon protocol like CXN v2.
6. Should have either a good inbuilt LPS like Lumin or having option to use External LPS like Allo digione.
7. Should have very Clean digital outs with all types of connectors especially I2S.
8. Most importantly the Sound Quality.

Please add if I missed any..

 

[vinothkumar]

I completely agree on your thoughts. Every streamer is sounding different (atleast slightly) even if we use the same rest of the setup.
A Good Streamer should have below qualities.

1. Good Design, attractive Display Screen and smooth Volume knob like Cambridge Audio EVO 75.
2. Should support all HiRes streaming services as well as the popular but basic streaming services like Blusound.
3. Should have their own UI like Bluos.
4. It should support Harddisk connectivity for playing local files with good indexing capability like CXN v2.
5. Should support chromcast, Airplay, Upnp/DLNA & Roon protocol like CXN v2.
6. Should have either a good inbuilt LPS like Lumin or having option to use External LPS like Allo digione.
7. Should have very Clean digital outs with all types of connectors especially I2S.
8. Most importantly the Sound Quality.

Please add if I missed any..

Though you have mentioned everything about a good streamer, a certain things come under a personal preference. Nothing new but probably a change of order in my own preference.

1) Sound quality - no compromise region, should be better than a laptop/computer and this is the reason im spending my money on a dedicated streamer. There shouldn't be any house sound like allo digione signature, should be as transparent as possible for the money.

2) USB playback for local media without relying on internet (Internet probably for controlling the streamer but preferably not for local file streaming)

To me rest are all additionals based on how much more im spending on a streamer. YMMV.

 

[Analogous]

Though you have mentioned everything about a good streamer, a certain things come under a personal preference. Nothing new but probably a change of order in my own preference.

1) Sound quality - no compromise region, should be better than a laptop/computer and this is the reason im spending my money on a dedicated streamer. There shouldn't be any house sound like allo digione signature, should be as transparent as possible for the money.

2) USB playback for local media without relying on internet (Internet probably for controlling the streamer but preferably not for local file streaming)

To me rest are all additionals based on how much more im spending on a streamer. YMMV.

So, going through the responses in this thread so far, I have noted three broad types of opinions with regard to sound quality:

1. Stand alone streamers need to be assessed or evaluated separately and different from Streamers with built in DACs
2. Each stand alone (no built in DAC) streamer has its own sound signature and the understanding of this is vague.
3 In Streamers with built in DACs it’s impossible (?) to assess the sound signature of the DAC and Streamer separately.

Another observation is that most of us don’t want to bother much with assessing and comparing the user interface, input and output options, ease of set up etc. We are more comfortable assessing sound quality.

 

[sathtom]

3 In Streamers with built in DACs it’s impossible (?) to assess the sound signature of the DAC and Streamer separately.

For Streamer-DAC Combo devices, we can assess the SQ of streamer part alone by using external DAC via Digital outs if that combo device has digital out option.

 

[Analogous]

For Streamer-DAC Combo devices, we can assess the SQ of streamer part alone by using external DAC via Digital outs if that combo device has digital out option.

I think even then it’s difficult to separate the external DAC function from the streamer as far as their effects on the sound qu goes?

 

[sathtom]

I think even then it’s difficult to separate the external DAC function from the streamer as far as their effects on the sound qu goes?

I meant that we need to compare 2 or more streamers with same setup (DAC, Preamp, Amplifier, Cables, speaker) so that we can perceive the difference in sound quality of different streamers in A/B Testing. If the streamer that we want to test is a Streamer-DAC combo, then we can exclude the inbuilt DAC by using Digital out option.

 

[Analogous]

So it’s quite a challenge to compare and evaluate a streamers sound quality…

But we can evaluate other aspects of a streamer and use these to choose the best one for our specific tastes and needs?

Yes, it would still be subjective and thus not standardisable but still good information from those who have had an opportunity to try out two or more streamers and share their insights with others.

Score for each below from 0 to 10 (add streamer name) ->	streamer 1	streamer 2	streamer 3	streamer 4
1. Physical design, elegance, style, quality of fit and finish, presence of and effectiveness of display
2. Ease of set up, stability in receiving and transmitting audio streams, wired and wirelessly
3. input and output options (Spdif, optical, RCA etc) power supply, clean signal.
4. Quality of App and OS, user interface, ease of use, experience, variety of streaming services..
5. Value for money as a streamer (cost vs features)
Total score

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Another observation is that most of us don’t want to bother much with assessing and comparing the user interface, input and output options, ease of set up etc. We are more comfortable assessing sound quality.

Not really. Not me for one. When I listen to streamed content, SQ isn’t so high on my list. Firstly, I am usually exploring music while I am streaming and the mind is occupied with the new track/album/artist/genre I find, than the sound quality. Secondly, I know that streaming (even FLAC) doesn’t come close to listening to local media (CD or files) in terms of sound quality. And I do the latter, still using my streamer’s DAC, but with a CD transport or powered HDD connected to it when I listen to my collection while in the mood for some focused, immersive listening. And that’s when SQ matters to me. While streaming, it’s the other parameters in your table that make a bigger difference to my experience than absolute SQ.

 

[Analogous]

Not really. Not me for one. When I listen to streamed content, SQ isn’t so high on my list. Firstly, I am usually exploring music while I am streaming and the mind is occupied with the new track/album/artist/genre I find, than the sound quality. Secondly, I know that streaming (even FLAC) doesn’t come close to listening to local media (CD or files) when it comes to sound quality. And I do the latter, still using my streamer’s DAC, but with a CD transport or powered HDD connected to it when I listen to my collection while in the mood for some focused, immersive listening. And that’s when SQ matters to me. While streaming, it’s the other parameters in your table that make a bigger difference to my experience than absolute SQ.

That’s why I said “most of us…” not “all of us“….may be I should have said “some of us…”
Having said this…the fog still remains…do help clear it if possible

 

[Analogous]

Maybe we should change the title of this thread to “What’s the worst streamer you have used”?

 

[sathtom]

Hi @Analogous bro,

If it is ok for you, I prepared a slightly updated sheet with all your inputs and put it in Google drive which can be editable by anyone using below link,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h-ApG6A4QoWfHsrFtuoJEo-IpzpLFguM/view?usp=sharing

@SachinChavan bro can update CXN v2
@Rajeshh bro, Please update on Primare NP5,

Prominent Users of other streamers can edit this sheet and update.

 

[Analogous]

Hi @Analogous bro,

If it is ok for you, I prepared a slightly updated sheet with all your inputs and put it in Google drive which can be editable by anyone using below link,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h-ApG6A4QoWfHsrFtuoJEo-IpzpLFguM/view?usp=sharing

@SachinChavan bro can update CXN v2
@Rajeshh bro, Please update on Primare NP5,

Prominent Users of other streamers can edit this sheet and update.

@sathtom , thank you so much.
I think a row can be added on top (above the streamer name) for the reviewers name. More than one person may review the same model streamer and possibly give different scores? They can add a column and type their name in at the top.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Having said this…the fog still remains…do help clear it if possible

I guess it will continue. The only reason advocates of SQ in pure streamers are able to provide is ‘jitter’. But then streamer is the last leg in the long chain of cables and multitude of telecom equipment that the streaming signal passed through before it gets to your home. What about the jitter produced there? Is it worthwhile spending lacs in controlling the jitter introduced by the streamer if you can’t control it till it reaches your place? I don’t know.

While I can visualise that streaming will eventually replace local media for all practical purposes (99% consumers), I sense the SQ gap will continue to matter to the discerning audiophile. Even after an entire life cycle of the CD revolution, most audiophiles still vouch for vinyl and tapes as the ultimate in SQ. Probably the same might happen with streaming and the hardcore audiophile may not give up his local media altogether.

Back to the streamer-SQ correlation, I imagine the fogginess would continue for a long long time, just like with digital cables.

 

[sathtom]

While I can visualise that streaming will eventually replace local media for all practical purposes (99% consumers), I sense the SQ gap will continue to matter to the discerning audiophile. Even after an entire life cycle of the CD revolution, most audiophiles still vouch for vinyl and tapes as the ultimate in SQ.

You are absolutely right bro. Vinyl is the Ultimate then comes the CD Disc Playback. Only after these two, comes local lossless files playback & online streaming. I think the purpose of this thread is to clear the confusion among new audiophiles or music lovers on Streamers. Many think that streamers doesn't matter as it is just transmiting 0's & 1's. I heard about one audiophile owning >8 Lacs worth of Audio gears in his stereo setup with just CCA as a streamer.

 

[Analogous]

I guess it will continue. The only reason advocates of SQ in pure streamers are able to provide is ‘jitter’. But then streamer is the last leg in the long chain of cables and multitude of telecom equipment that the streaming signal passed through before it gets to your home. What about the jitter produced there? Is it worthwhile spending lacs in controlling the jitter introduced by the streamer if you can’t control it till it reaches your place? I don’t know.

While I can visualise that streaming will eventually replace local media for all practical purposes (99% consumers), I sense the SQ gap will continue to matter to the discerning audiophile. Even after an entire life cycle of the CD revolution, most audiophiles still vouch for vinyl and tapes as the ultimate in SQ. Probably the same might happen with streaming and the hardcore audiophile may not give up his local media altogether.

Back to the streamer-SQ correlation, I imagine the fogginess would continue for a long long time, just like with digital cables.

I thought DACs had the clocks to manage jitter? I did not realise stand-alone streamers had them too.

 

[shyamv]

I thought DACs had the clocks to manage jitter? I did not realise stand-alone streamers had them too.

Both Streamer and DAC needs to have a clock - nowadays with femtosecond(10 raised to -15 of a second) accuracy. This is to ensure that timing and sampling consistency between the two. Lack of timing alignment results in the infamous phenomenon called 'Jitter'.

Also USB and Coax SPDIF has different approaches towards the 'ownership' of the master clock. In SPDIF signal, both digital data and clock information is sent together by the source ie streamer in this case. DAC needs to extract this clock information out of even data packet, buffer data stream, and sync or reclock its clock to that of the source. This makes SPDIF inefficient as the streamer becomes the 'master' clock making the DAC chase its timing. Also if the streamer has a poor clock implementation or poor EMI management , this further screws up the timing of entire system.

On the other hand, USB audio (asynchronous mode), DAC becomes the master and sets the timing for the entire system. This results in usually a lot more cleaner ie low jitter implementation as the DAC is not at the mercy of a noisy source.

This is another reason why USB audio, and not SPDIF, can handle higher audio quality (32/768 or DSD 256/512/1024 or more) as more data packets are sent every second at these higher audio resolutions.

So there is a lot of complexity associated with a streamer and DAC and the ideal pairing between the two, which can have an significant influence of the overall sound.

So now tell me this. Given the differences between USB and SPDIF as explained above, how can one evaluate the sound quality of digital output of say Allo USBridge Signature (which is USB only) or CXN V2(Coax only) or Limetree Network Bridge (which has both). How do we know which specific digital output was used and to which upstream DAC was it connected? Even two different sources connected to the same DAC both over same digital output type, won't behave the same way.

Hence my belief that a standalone audio-grade streamer should NOT have any sound quality of its own and evaluating the sound quality of just a streamer does not make any sense.

 

[shyamv]

The only reason advocates of SQ in pure streamers are able to provide is ‘jitter’. But then streamer is the last leg in the long chain of cables and multitude of telecom equipment that the streaming signal passed through before it gets to your home. What about the jitter produced there? Is it worthwhile spending lacs in controlling the jitter introduced by the streamer if you can’t control it till it reaches your place? I don’t know.

Noise produces jitter. Upstream noise in a digital streaming can be largely minimised by a) Effective noise isolation/filtering mechanisms in a streamer and DAC b) Good clock implementation in a DAC to handle timing between a streamer and DAC c) Effective buffering and reclocking in a DAC just before the data packets are sent to the DAC chic inside it. So all the noise upstream can be made insignificant with a decent DAC implementation.

However, I agree that spending tens of thousands on a streamer for technology features that can be solved with few tens of dollars is meaningless.

 

[Analogous]

Both Streamer and DAC needs to have a clock - nowadays with femtosecond(10 raised to -15 of a second) accuracy. This is to ensure that timing and sampling consistency between the two. Lack of timing alignment results in the infamous phenomenon called 'Jitter'.

Also USB and Coax SPDIF has different approaches towards the 'ownership' of the master clock. In SPDIF signal, both digital data and clock information is sent together by the source ie streamer in this case. DAC needs to extract this clock information out of even data packet, buffer data stream, and sync or reclock its clock to that of the source. This makes SPDIF inefficient as the streamer becomes the 'master' clock making the DAC chase its timing. Also if the streamer has a poor clock implementation or poor EMI management , this further screws up the timing of entire system.

On the other hand, USB audio (asynchronous mode), DAC becomes the master and sets the timing for the entire system. This results in usually a lot more cleaner ie low jitter implementation as the DAC is not at the mercy of a noisy source.

This is another reason why USB audio, and not SPDIF, can handle higher audio quality (32/768 or DSD 256/512/1024 or more) as more data packets are sent every second at these higher audio resolutions.

So there is a lot of complexity associated with a streamer and DAC and the ideal pairing between the two, which can have an significant influence of the overall sound.

So now tell me this. Given the differences between USB and SPDIF as explained above, how can one evaluate the sound quality of digital output of say Allo USBridge Signature (which is USB only) or CXN V2(Coax only) or Limetree Network Bridge (which has both). How do we know which specific digital output was used and to which upstream DAC was it connected? Even two different sources connected to the same DAC both over same digital output type, won't behave the same way.

Hence my belief that a standalone audio-grade streamer should NOT have any sound quality of its own and evaluating the sound quality of just a streamer does not make any sense.

@shyamv, that’s a good and clear explanation of the goings on inside the boxes under discussion. So with this understanding can we assume the difference in cost between a $100 Streamer with built in DAC and a $4000 streamer-DAC is ….mostly due to the quality of the the DAC?

Or maybe a better question would be: “what are the differences between a good streamer and a not so good one?”

 

[bornfi]

Whether USB or non-USB (SPDIF/AES/Toslink), your DAC is always slave(in terms of clock and clock is the key) to the source. e.g. if you are running a $10 DAC with $2 streamer, you are getting $2 worth of performance. So, a properly clocked source is must. I sometime wonder that in a music system DAC is not as important as a properly clocked source and yes, this is a challenge.

The above understanding is based on what I have had experience with personally. So, there was a time I had Logitech's Squeezebox Touch as source and when I replaced it with Logitech's Transporter, the sparked my curiosity. I could hear the difference clearly. This finally lead me to try something known as Dante and the moment I played the first song, the thing came to my mind was "Should this how it should have sounded always!!". Trust me that the problem with digital is that your best becomes worse only after you hear the next level of performance. This is the reason why whenever I get opportunity, I encourage people to try Dante because this tells you what digital music is all about.

 

[shyamv]

@shyamv, that’s a good and clear explanation of the goings on inside the boxes under discussion. So with this understanding can we assume the difference in cost between a $100 Streamer with built in DAC and a $4000 streamer-DAC is ….mostly due to the quality of the the DAC?

As per my understanding, the difference in price is due to the following.
1) Yes, the DAC section contributes more to the overall cost than a streamer section. Costlier D-S DAC chips or resistor ladder circuits etc plus a few more things below.
2) Cheaper DACs or DAC+Streamer use a noisy wall-wart adapter and not a toroidal transformer or forms of power supply that can provide a linear voltage.
3) EMI filtering or isolation mechanisms are missing.
4) Better USB, Clock implementation
5) Analog output stage - Low-pass filters, amplification of the low-bandwidth DAC output, remove residual DC current, single-ended or balanced output etc. Some of these elements might be missing or scaled down in terms of capability.
6) Finally, a $100 product would have much lower manufacturer's margin in comparison to a $4000 product.

Note that items 2 and 3 are shared between the streamer and DAC sections. So if these are present, both streamer and DAC sections shall benefit.