confused with hdmi

[nfsfan]

hi friends
my never ending quest with htpc never ends

A wdtv is so much simple, but i prefer a htpc for blu-ray proofing reasons. An then i read about the problems with blu-ray audio, i.e DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD( These cannot be bitstreamed through hdmi 1.3 in a pc, because of lack of implementation of PAP ). But Cyberlink powerdvd9 has a partially working solution, it converts these truehd and dts ma tracks to 7.1 ch lpcm, which can then be transferred over hdmi.

Now comes the part of hdmi pass-thru. Most receivers, including new 2009 models from onkyo, the hts 3200 and hts 5200( upgraded 3100 and 5100 with hdmi) have hdmi, but as pass-thru.

Home Theater Systems | Product Line | Onkyo USA Home Theater Products

Further their website says that these are pass-thru, and a separate audio connection is required. If this is the case, then what is the use of hdmi in such receivers? New age hdtv's all have 2-4 hdmi connections, and if there's not going to be any sound from the receiver, its better to connect directly to the tv!

If mid end home theaters such as the 5100/5200 can not process audio from hdmi, what is the use of hdmi? or am i, or onkyo missing something?

 

[iaudio]

hi friends
my never ending quest with htpc never ends

A wdtv is so much simple, but i prefer a htpc for blu-ray proofing reasons. An then i read about the problems with blu-ray audio, i.e DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD( These cannot be bitstreamed through hdmi 1.3 in a pc, because of lack of implementation of PAP ). But Cyberlink powerdvd9 has a partially working solution, it converts these truehd and dts ma tracks to 7.1 ch lpcm, which can then be transferred over hdmi.

Now comes the part of hdmi pass-thru. Most receivers, including new 2009 models from onkyo, the hts 3200 and hts 5200( upgraded 3100 and 5100 with hdmi) have hdmi, but as pass-thru.

Home Theater Systems | Product Line | Onkyo USA Home Theater Products

Further their website says that these are pass-thru, and a separate audio connection is required. If this is the case, then what is the use of hdmi in such receivers? New age hdtv's all have 2-4 hdmi connections, and if there's not going to be any sound from the receiver, its better to connect directly to the tv!

If mid end home theaters such as the 5100/5200 can not process audio from hdmi, what is the use of hdmi? or am i, or onkyo missing something?

Couldnt agree with you more!I have onkyo sr506 which also has hdmi passthrough, which negates the main advantage of hdmi, that of transferring hd video and audio over a single cable! I think its just for the sake of a feature list that they have this. And as I read on another thread by venkatcr in this forum, some dvdp's tend to transfer hd video through hdmi only, then it would be of some use. Or if you are not specific that your audio be processed by the avr.

 

[venkatcr]

This has to do with what is called HDCP for High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection. Any system that follows strict 1.3a specifications must have special software to decrypt audio Digital Rights Management (DRM) that follow three standards - Advanced Access Content System (AACS), Content Protection for Recordable Media (CPRM), and Content Scramble System (CSM). This has been done to protect expensive Blu-Ray discs from piracy. Technically, a Blu-Ray disc cannot be copied.

In the recent past some new CODECs have been added. which include Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. These follow HDCP standards and are encrypted for transfer in raw format. These use bitrates which exceed the capability of our standard S/PDIF (Optical) capability to be carried raw or in Bitstream format. Any player that supports HDMI 1.3 and above can transfer these audio data over the HDMI cable. On the other side the AVR must have the necessary decoder built in to decode the incoming data and follow HDCP standards.

Unfortunately, Onkyo, in it's budget receivers, has decided not to build in the audio decoders. Such receivers, though they do receive the audio data, just ignore it. For regular audio CODECs (non HPCP supported) to be processed, you are forced to make another connection through Optical or Digital Coaxial.

There are some solutions that are available.

1. Some advanced DVD Players that have the capability to decode all the audio data internally, and transfer 8 channels of audio as analogue signals. On the AVR side, it must accept upto 8 analogue inputs.

2. Some advanced DVD players that can again internally decode the audio signal's and send it through HDMI as multi channel LPCM. Again the AVR must understand LPCM over HDMI.

This is short coming of a particular manufacturer and his model. If an AVR claims it is capable of understanding TrueHD and DTS-HD, it must be able to decode HDCP protected data received in raw format, as well as understand multi channel LPCM.

Cheers

 

[realactivex]

Goes back to the statement that HDMI is a hurriedly hashed up standard which is so un-standard

 

[marsilians]

...
Now comes the part of hdmi pass-thru. Most receivers, including new 2009 models from onkyo, the hts 3200 and hts 5200( upgraded 3100 and 5100 with hdmi) have hdmi, but as pass-thru.

....

Further their website says that these are pass-thru, and a separate audio connection is required. If this is the case, then what is the use of hdmi in such receivers? New age hdtv's all have 2-4 hdmi connections, and if there's not going to be any sound from the receiver, its better to connect directly to the tv!

If mid end home theaters such as the 5100/5200 can not process audio from hdmi, what is the use of hdmi? or am i, or onkyo missing something?

HDMI-passthrough is a rip off from the manufacturers as I mentioned in another thread. This is another in the saga of confusion around the whole HDMI capability vs. the manufacturers implementation.

I am a fan of HDMI for its elegance, potential & simplicity but I have a whole slew of issues otherwise from the physical connectors to version numbering (which other cable have you seen that has version no. certification?).

To me pass-through means that the manufacturer is indirectly telling you that the component is incapable of handling the audio segment. This is the reason you need the extra digital connection (toslink or coax) to get 5.1 sound at most. So no advantage in getting an AVR with HDMI!

 

[nfsfan]

i've finelly got it. after reading much, there are two 'varieties' of hdmi as well, hdmi passthrough : where the onkyo wont even touch the source, just pass it along , so no audio through hdmi
& hdmi repeater : in this case the receiver does take the audio out of the hdmi interface.

here it is :
HDMI: pass through, repeater, switcher? - Audioholics Home Theater Forums

The cheapest hdmi receiver in actuality , i found are :

YAMAHA RX-V465 5.1-Channel Digital Home Theater Receiver $329.00
YAMAHA RX-V565 7.1 Channel Home Theater Receiver $429.00

whats the cheapest way to procure these(grey included) + some decent speakers(for movies only), like in entry level onkyo's)?
or any cheaper alternative?

Another alternative i found is tho use the htpc sound card , for HD audio by using analog out in such cases. Elsewhere the spdif would do just fine.

 

[spirovious]

This has to with what is called HDCP for High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection. Any system that follows strict 1.3a specifications must have special software to decrypt audio Digital Rights Management (DRM) that follow three standards - Advanced Access Content System (AACS), Content Protection for Recordable Media (CPRM), and Content Scramble System (CSM). This has been done to protect expensive Blu-Ray discs from piracy. Technically, a Blu-Ray disc cannot be copied.

In the recent past some new CODECs have been added. which include Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. These follow HDCP standards and are encrypted for transfer in raw format. These use bitrates which exceed the capability of our standard S/PDIF (Optical) capability to be carried raw or in Bitstream format. Any player that supports HDMI 1.3 and above can transfer these audio data over the HDMI cable. On the other side the AVR must have the necessary decoder built in to decode the incoming data and follow HDCP standards.

Unfortunately, Onkyo, in it's budget receivers, has decided not to build in the audio decoders. Such receivers, though they do receive the audio data, just ignore it. For regular audio CODECs (non HPCP supported) to be processed, you are forced to make another connection through Optical or Digital Coaxial.

There are some solutions that are available.

1. Some advanced DVD Players that have the capability to decode all the audio data internally, and transfer 8 channels of audio as analogue signals. On the AVR side, it must accept upto 8 analogue inputs.

2. Some advanced DVD players that can again internally decode the audio signal's and send it through HDMI as multi channel LPCM. Again the AVR must understand LPCM over HDMI.

This is short coming of a particular manufacturer and his model. If an AVR claims it is capable of understanding TrueHD and DTS-HD, it must be able to decode HDCP protected data received in raw format, as well as understand multi channel LPCM.

Cheers

Thanks Venkat,
Today I just ask some query abt HDCP,you gave the details today.

I read Chip article saying even LCDtv shld have HDCP standards.
So now buying AV products,do all support HDCP?

 

[marsilians]

The cheapest hdmi receiver in actuality , i found are :

YAMAHA RX-V465 5.1-Channel Digital Home Theater Receiver $329.00
YAMAHA RX-V565 7.1 Channel Home Theater Receiver $429.00

What do you mean by HDMI receiver? Are you looking for one that is not HDMI passthrough or just one with HDMI connector in it?

 

[nfsfan]

What do you mean by HDMI receiver? Are you looking for one that is not HDMI passthrough or just one with HDMI connector in it?

from that i mean, one which can process audio source from hdmi cabling.

 

[sub]

Hi nfsfan,

hi friends
my never ending quest with htpc never ends

A wdtv is so much simple, but i prefer a htpc for blu-ray proofing reasons. An then i read about the problems with blu-ray audio, i.e DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD( These cannot be bitstreamed through hdmi 1.3 in a pc, because of lack of implementation of PAP ). But Cyberlink powerdvd9 has a partially working solution, it converts these truehd and dts ma tracks to 7.1 ch lpcm, which can then be transferred over hdmi.

Now comes the part of hdmi pass-thru. Most receivers, including new 2009 models from onkyo, the hts 3200 and hts 5200( upgraded 3100 and 5100 with hdmi) have hdmi, but as pass-thru.

I have given a link for the above topic under the title "Facts about HDMI" in this forum, do follow the link to get a great picture about HDMI.

Any how let me give a few lines for your (and others) benefit.


HDMI Switchers


"HDMI Receivers can work in different ways. Most cheaper products use what is called an HDMI switch. This is just an HDMI socket that is connected to nothing in the receiver except the HDMI output.

If we look at the signal paths of the audio and video separately:

Audio:

The digital audio is read from the DVD disc by the DVD player. This is usually Dolby Digital 5.1sound. The player then outputs this digital audio via HDMI into the AV amp. We know from above that in AV amps that use HDMI switches, the HDMI input is not connected to anything other than the HDMI output. This means the digital audio can only pass straight out the AV amp and into the display device. The sound can NOT be heard at speakers connected to the AV amp. The sound is still digital when it reaches the display device and as display devices generally only deal with analogue audio, can not perform digital to analogue conversion on the digital audio, so we can not hear it. To get around this problem we must connect the DVD player to the AV amp with an additional digital audio cable, such as an optical cable. Now the digital audio can be processed by the AV amps DAC and can be heard at the speakers.

Video:

The digital video is read from the DVD disc by the DVD player. The player then outputs this digital video via HDMI into the AV amp. We know from above that in AV amps that use HDMI switches, the HDMI input is not connected to anything other than the HDMI output. This means the digital video can only pass straight out the AV amp and into the display device. The display device can now use its video DAC and digital processors to convert the digital video into an image that we can see.

However, as the HDMI output of the AV amp is only connected to the AV amps HDMI inputs, no other type of inputs can be output using HDMI. In other words, an AV amp that uses an HDMI switch can never perform and video conversion to HDMI.

HDMI Switches do not really add any functionality to an AV amp, in fact they actually mean more cables are required in order to make use of the HDMI Switch and get the most from your AV amp.

HDMI Repeaters

The alternative option to manufacturers to fit to an HDMI AV amp is called an HDMI Repeater. This device still allows users to switch between HDMI inputs to a common output but has fundamental differences to an HDMI Switch.
As we know, the data that is transferred by an HDMI cable is always digital. Digital audio and digital video can be passed from an HDMI source, such as a DVD player to an HDMI AV amp. We also know that in order for us to hear this audio and see this video, the digital data must be converted into analogue data by DACs and decoded by decoders. Again we can look at the signal paths when using an AV amp with an HDMI repeater:

Audio:

The digital audio is read from the DVD disc by the DVD player. This is usually Dolby Digital 5.1 sound. The player then outputs this digital audio via HDMI into the AV amp. Unlike the HDMI Switch AV amps, the HDMI Repeater is connected to the internal electronics of the AV amp. This means the AV amp can perform the necessary DAC and decoding to the digital signal so that it can be amplified and output to the speakers connected to the AV amp. This means no further connections are necessary from your HDMI source device to the HDMI AV amp as all data can be sent and handled by the HDMI repeater

Video:

The digital video is read from the DVD disc by the DVD player. The player then outputs this digital video via HDMI into the AV amp. We know from above that in AV amps that use HDMI switches, the HDMI input is not connected to anything other than the HDMI output. This means the digital video can only pass straight out the AV amp and into the display device. The display device can now use its video DAC and decoders to convert the digital video into an image that we can see.

As the HDMI output from the repeater is connected to the internal electronics of the amp, self generated data such as an On Screen Display (OSD) can be output too, assuming the amp supports this feature. Also, options such as converting analogue video inputs (such as composite or component) to digital to allow them to be output using HDMI (less cables) can be used, as can options such as video scaling and deinterlacing to improve the picture.

HDMI Repeaters add a great deal of functionality to the amp and have potential quality improvements over HDMI Switching amps, as well as requiring less connecting cables making them easier to install and use".

So, if you want more indepth idea about HDMI, use the following link given by Yamaha Corporation.

http://www.yamaha-uk.com/pdf/hdmi.pdf

Regards

sub

 

[venkatcr]

Today I just ask some query abt HDCP,you gave the details today. I read Chip article saying even LCDtv shld have HDCP standards.
So now buying AV products,do all support HDCP?

Well, any unit that supports HDMI 1.3a should and will support HDCP standards. Unless a manufacturer, specifically says no, the product will support HDCP. Look for the following in their specifications:

1. Support full HD audio.
2. Support deep color.
3. Support HDMI 1.3 / 1.3a

If these are mentioned, the unit supports HDCP standards.

Cheers

 

[spirovious]

from that i mean, one which can process audio source from hdmi cabling.

Onkyo 576 is for 30k & can accept sound from HDMI & even decodes DDHD too.

The newer entry level models can decode HD audio too with reasonable price.
Receivers | Product Line | Onkyo USA Home Theater Products

 

[nfsfan]

Onkyo 576 is for 30k & can accept sound from HDMI & even decodes DDHD too.

The newer entry level models can decode HD audio too with reasonable price.
Receivers | Product Line | Onkyo USA Home Theater Products

thanx..but the cheapest reciever capable of doing this is the 507, or yamaha 465. i wouldnt group them as entry level by indian standards.

 

[spirovious]

thanx..but the cheapest reciever capable of doing this is the 507, or yamaha 465. i wouldnt group them as entry level by indian standards.

Right but they are yet to come(it may come in July).

 

[Yogesh]

I am asking this question at the risk of called ignoramus. But, I will ask it anyway.

HDAudio processing is Software based OR hardware based? Is it possible that future upgrade of software in AVR enables todays pass-through HDMi to process multi-channel audio?

Yogesh.

 

[venkatcr]

HDAudio processing is Software based OR hardware based? Is it possible that future upgrade of software in AVR enables todays pass-through HDMi to process multi-channel audio?

Though most of the processing may be software based, unlike computers that have an operating system in which you can run any program, AVRs are more hardware based. That is even if a software is used, these are written onto processing chips which are soldered onto boards inside the the AVRs. There are only a few multi channel processors such as Lexicon that allow software upgrades. With most other brands, if you current AVR does not have a feature, you have to buy a new one that has the feature. There is no way to upgrade a product excepting from some specific debugging feature that the manufacturer may allow you to write onto the AVR.

AVRs and amplifiers are closed system and are thus very difficult to upgrade.

Cheers