M
mpw
Guest
jai
... i am not too sure about that... but a discussion on this would take the thread on a different tangent.. so maybe i guess we have a topic to discuss whenever we meet next :cheers:
Dac shootout. Hex vs Vega vs Yggdrasil
- Thread starter prem
- Start date
jai
... i am not too sure about that... but a discussion on this would take the thread on a different tangent.. so maybe i guess we have a topic to discuss whenever we meet next :cheers:
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
I know Yggy only from the nose squished on glass perspective. I don't have USB going into my DAC.
from
Schiit Audio, Headphone amps and DACs made in USA.
Adapticlock and USB Gen 3: Advanced Input Optimization
Yggdrasil accepts up to 5 digital inputs and carefully manages them with our Adapticlock clock regeneration system. Adapticlock is the most sophisticated clock management system in the world. It assesses the quality of all inputs, measures their incoming center frequency and jitter, and automatically routes the input to the best clock regeneration system. Yggdrasil also features our all-new USB Gen 3 input module, for exceptional USB input performance.
see also Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up - Page 80
"unique Adapticlock system, which actually assesses the quality of the input signal (in terms of center frequency and jitter) and routes it to either a VCO or VCXO oscillator"
"the real story of Gungnir is probably Adapticlock, its unique feature. Thats a Mike Moffat original that hes justifiably proud of. As far as we know, no other DAC tells you if your source is good or bad, and, even if bad, still provides clock regeneration. It took a ton of code to make that one workand some very expensive VCXOs.
If its bad, well light up a front panel light, Mike said. We could call it the buy better gear light.
And Buy Better Gear is what stuck. Its technically the VCO Mode light, but thats a whole lot less interesting, right?**
**And theres not a lot of really bad gear out there, to be honest. Pretty much any computer wont light it. It really only comes on with really, really awful stuff, like satellite receivers and Apple Airport Express sources. And some old CD players that have gone off-frequency. Thats about it. Everything else runs in high-precision VCXO mode" (VCXO voltage-controlled crystal oscillator where frequency can be ironed and smoothed and altered at the few tens of parts per million range)
from the manual
Hey, the buy better gear light came on. What does that mean?
That means you have a crap source. Yggdrasil analyzes the incoming
center frequency and jitter to determine if it can use VCXO reclocking,
which requires a precise center frequency and reasonably low jitter.
If it cannot use VCXO regeneration, it switches to VCO regeneration,
which still provides orders of magnitude improvement in the
reconstructed clock. However, the source is still crap. Yes, even
if its a $10000 CD player you purchased 15 years ago. Those go
off-frequency all the time.
center frequency and jitter to determine if it can use VCXO reclocking,
which requires a precise center frequency and reasonably low jitter.
If it cannot use VCXO regeneration, it switches to VCO regeneration,
which still provides orders of magnitude improvement in the
reconstructed clock. However, the source is still crap. Yes, even
if its a $10000 CD player you purchased 15 years ago. Those go
off-frequency all the time.
So, maybe your listening will not suffer if you do have a USB source and the light does not go all bright.
But like I said above, I don't know at all and I don't use USB. But I'd think not bad, at all. I however have a constant BBG light on in my head it seems
ciao
gr
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
Most serious DACs do have it..but then standards in home audio are perhaps not so binding . In pro audio they will have AES but very often not have coax
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M
mpw
Guest
Does that imply customers who spend usd 2500 are not serious ?
Regards
Regards
AES/EBU ports are more commonly found on pro audio devices. The number of hifi devices (CDPs and DACs) that sport it are rather low. If one wants to use AES on DAC then there are only two options for source: a CD player or transport that has AES output, or a sound card that has AES output port. (Ignoring specialized, audiophile-grade player boxes which are too miniscule in numbers).
The reason for the proliferation of USB interface in DACs - despite its many known shortcomings - is because practically every computer has an USB port (or two or three), but not AES or SPDIF or TOSLINK unless one installs a high grade sounds card. A good sound card having these interfaces costs as much, if not more, than a decent desktop computer. And laptops have clearly subsumed desktop PCs so sound cards are no longer an option to the vast majority of audio enthusiasts.
But one must admit that USB audio has come a long, long way from the days when most USB implementations outside of dCS' RingDAC was rubbish.
The reason for the proliferation of USB interface in DACs - despite its many known shortcomings - is because practically every computer has an USB port (or two or three), but not AES or SPDIF or TOSLINK unless one installs a high grade sounds card. A good sound card having these interfaces costs as much, if not more, than a decent desktop computer. And laptops have clearly subsumed desktop PCs so sound cards are no longer an option to the vast majority of audio enthusiasts.
But one must admit that USB audio has come a long, long way from the days when most USB implementations outside of dCS' RingDAC was rubbish.
Am sure in a couple of years, we will have USB gen 4 and probably even a gen 5, by which time all issues would have been sorted out.
Mpw, all the dacs I was considering in the USD 2000 to 3500 range had aes as a digital input. The problem, as jls001 mentioned, is on the source side.
Mpw, all the dacs I was considering in the USD 2000 to 3500 range had aes as a digital input. The problem, as jls001 mentioned, is on the source side.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Not sure if it's due to the definition of the standard but most AES implementations are limited to 24/192. Similarly TOSLINK is commonly limited to 24/96 but there are 24/192 implementations of TOSLINK.
Not sure but i think SPDIF/AES both have a max of 24 bits ?
another advantage of AES is that they are much better at RFI rejection. I used AES with my older Yellowtec converter to the dac and it was pretty good.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
I guess if you are not using a regular pc, you should stick to Spdif / Opt / AES.
USB became a big thing because audio manufacturers decided to make dacs for the pc as well. PCs are flexible and you can do a lot of hitherto unimaginable things in the playback domain. Hence, a lot of retrofitting and band aid mechanisms are in place.
USB became a big thing because audio manufacturers decided to make dacs for the pc as well. PCs are flexible and you can do a lot of hitherto unimaginable things in the playback domain. Hence, a lot of retrofitting and band aid mechanisms are in place.
Interesting product from PS Audio
https://www.facebook.com/PositiveFeedbackOnline/posts/10154189948176066:0
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https://www.facebook.com/PositiveFeedbackOnline/posts/10154189948176066:0
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
What previously unimaginable things are now happening in the playback domain? How is that related to DAC's? To the best of my knowledge, PC manufacturers are not doing anything now (audio related) that they've not been doing for at least 10 years now. So then who is doing the retrofitting and implementing band aids? DAC's? If yes, what retrofits are there at the DAC end? Why are you terming them "retrofits"? And band aids? Elaboration/Clarification would be appreciated.
regeHA
Well-Known Member
s_w probably means in the domain of playback software... lots of them like HQP, Bughead upsample music and most of them need a powerful processor... then others like Roon make music an interactive session... and for all of them playback is limited to a PC. Yet another extension is a 2 PC setup, one for playback and another as a renderer (can be a PC or a small SOC type device like Pi or even a CCA). All of this is possible/available only with a PC based setup. No can do with a streamer, network player, CDP, etc. and most of them are limited to Windows and Mac.
Whether you can hear things differently or not depends on the Kool-Aid you are drinking... but I've been using a 2 PC setup for a couple of years now starting with JRiver and cannot go back to a regular PC or streamer or even a single all in one device like a CDP or network player.
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
I present my interpretation of that post by square wave.
Exhibit A : Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up - Page 47
from my linky above said:
But DAC manufacturers (like Schiit) had to support that sucky thing anyway.
Such solutions (that make a bad thing work) are therefore "band aids" and not a real cure.
That was the kool aid I drank when I decided to spend on a dabba with an optical out (also for galvanic isolation)
That motivation is because PCs (which tend not to have optical or coaxial outputs) are darned good at sourcing/ streaming, organizing, massaging (what your favorite bitperfect player probably does without your knowing it, or so I have read OR DRC at your behest)
What is the "retrofit" stumps me. I guess I am with you on that one.
ciao
gr
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
I get all that. But how is that related to the USB interface? Or DAC's in general that support USB input. My question came mainly because of the usage of the word "hence" in s_w's last sentence in his post in question. That implied a cause (tied to the sentence before the "hence" word) and effect. That part threw me off.
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regeHA
Well-Known Member
My assumption would be that USB is a bad interface for audio. It's ok with computer speakers and for YouTube playback, but leaves a lot to be desired in a proper audiophile setup. My own experience was a $35 Pi squarely beating my highly optimized $2500 PC that's a dream machine for gaming... but the Pi achieved galvanic isolation and the PC was noisy via USB.
Most folks using USB need to put in a lot of work. I've seen one setup with 4 devices all for the purpose of cleaning and reclocking audio via USB. Of course a lot of it is snake oil and I personally find only electrical noise to be a major issue via USB... but all things said and done you cannot really achieve the best results via USB from a PC. You do need to spend on cleaning the electrical noise. OTOH simply get a soundcard with optical Toslink and you are good to go with any device for source including a PC... at least till 24/96 and RBCD content.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
The so called "bad thing" works VERY well. And if these solutions are band-aids then the world needs more band-aids.
sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
I would bet on it, it is there on the Yggy! (though I did call it differently multiple times when spending the money a) while buying a source b) while buying a DAC without USB and again c) deciding against spending a $100 for usb input option while upgrading DAC from b
I had posted up thread in response to that "USB input, while not sounding as good as the ideal input, doesn't sound outright bad"
So, maybe your listening will not suffer if you do have a USB source and the light does not go all bright.
ciao
gr
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