Double Blind Test (DBT)

[square_wave]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Hmmm... Quite a few people insist that it doesn't work because they didn't get the result they expected. That is not quite the same thing.

This is quite true. The regular version cannot distinguish between a 100$ dvd player and a high end purpose built studio grade source. Anyone with tin ears can heard the difference under normal conditions. So there is a problem with the test right ??

To give you a better perspective, I know a few cases where people ditched total system upgrade plans and saved themselves a lot of money just by upgrading their digital source and cables. The systems changed from boring to one which elicited joy. Surely, better speakers will bring more dramatic change but in most cases, they were not really looking for such a change. Better sources and cables are sometimes such a revelation..

Your response to this post would to test this under DBT..The people will not because it is not a difference that is hard to tell.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

The regular version cannot distinguish between

It's the person who is supposed to do the distinguishing! :lol:

cannot has to be a massive assumption or generalisation. Do you think that blind tests have some sort of built-in function that makes everything sound identical? They can just as easily show that, yes, the difference a person thought was there is there. It's just a tool. It's a tool to clear doubt, or to help establish that something that should not be happening is happening. It is a tool to rid tests of our built-in expectations and biases. If a person does not admit those, then all their judgements are a little suspect --- but still, of course, fine for what they do in their own lives.

Your response to this post would to test this under DBT.

Have I mentioned that I have never double-blind-tested any of my equipment?

Yes, I think I have. I do find the ear trusters are often not good listeners :lol:

(No offense: no, of course I don't expect you to keep track of every word everybody says; I don't. But if you claim, "You would say..." then perhaps that ought to be tested. In a double-blind test :lol: :lol

 

[coaltrain]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

there's a good read by art dudley in the latest stereophile (nov. 2014).
an article on dbt.

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Yes, I think I have. I do find the ear trusters are often not good listeners :lol:
....QUOTE]

Me confused. Care to elaborate? Meanwhile, Online Audiogram and Hearing Test | Unbiased & Free

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Is it available online?

John Atkinson hates them, and, notwithstanding his famous quote about lack of basic honesty in the industry, it seems that J Gordon Holt may never have used them.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Yes, I think I have. I do find the ear trusters are often not good listeners :lol:
....

Just a gentle dig suggesting that some of those who loudly proclaim their trust in their ears don't listen to what is said to them hyeah:

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Thad, golden eared audiophiles genuinely hear the differences. That perception is real to them. Their opinions are true based on their experience.

 

[square_wave]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

We can flog the DBT horse to death....but the two camps will still remain continuing to do whatever makes sense to them....because making sense and making a difference is the only thing that matters. When the DBT camp device a practical method to manufacture and assemble mind blowing systems without the harrowing experience of extended sighted auditions, I may join. At this point I cannot see any use for it at all..

 

[Soundstage]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

I am somewhat intrigued by the "trusting your ears" tag line, which is often the last refuge and brought in to put a full stop to any further debate, as it cannot ostensibly be challenged.

So how and where does this trust disappear when it comes to DBT's?

 

[square_wave]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Thad, golden eared audiophiles genuinely hear the differences. That perception is real to them. Their opinions are true based on their experience.

It is the same for DBT proponents too...not able to hear difference between a $100 DVD player and a prism Dac is very real..

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

It is the same for DBT proponents too...not able to hear difference between a $100 DVD player and a prism Dac is very real..

That is not an argument: it is a kind of technique called a slur. I think you need to do some research before you talk like this about "DBT proponents."

We could start taking this personally, you know. What makes you think that all people who do not dismiss DBT tests know nothing about music, never enjoy it, have never heard it played on good equipment, in short are not qualified to bear the hallowed title of audiophile, which, in this context, is just snobbery.

Well thanks... but you're wrong.

Thad, golden eared audiophiles genuinely hear the differences. That perception is real to them. Their opinions are true based on their experience.

All our experiences are real to us. Even if we come to understand that the experience was not what we thought, or was not caused by what we thought caused it, it is still a real experience. If someone tells me that they met god yesterday, I don't question the fact that they had a mind-blowingly powerful, real experience ...but, at least to myself, I question what actually happened.

 

[asliarun]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

For what it is worth, I saw a documentary called Somm - about a group of people who are training to pass an exam that gives them the title of master sommelier.

Besides the theory of wine and wine history, the most crucial part of their exam is being able to correctly identify a series of red and white wines in blind tasting. They have to correctly identify not just the wine type (chardonnay, pinot noir, and thousands of obscure wine types), but also the geographical origin including the part of the country it came from.

It is superb to see how they train for it. They have a well defined matrix approach that they use to systematically narrow down their options until they are able to identify the wine type and origin.

But what I found amazing is that the training and practice is so systematic, thorough, but most importantly, unambiguous. If I hear a master sommelier describe a wine, I now *know* that he is describing the wine correctly.

And their adjectives are even flowerier that what audiophiles use. On the face of it, the descriptions are so exotic that one feels they are making it up. But I now know they are telling the truth because they can also correctly identify 45 out of 50 wines - by tasting blind. That single ability adds so much credibility!!

Sorry for digressing. I thought of the audiophile world when I saw it. Perhaps it would be interesting for us to figure out a way to do the same? If a senior reviewer (or even us) could identify audio equipment in a blind test, would it not add credibility to all their other adjectives and suggestions?

Does not blind listening test force us to analyze music and system sound based solely on our ears and what we hear?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

A nice thing about that is the blind test used as part of training; the blind test used as confirmation.

Apparently, most drinkers cannot reliably even tell white from red in blind tests, let alone the detail. I guess that does not prove that all wines are the same!

Such tests also show that, among group of drinkers, a favourite may emerge, but it is not necessarily related to cost or fame of the name.

Very much related to audio.

If a senior reviewer (or even us) could identify audio equipment in a blind test, would it not add credibility to all their other adjectives and suggestions?

Yes, it would, and I am quite prepared to believe that such people may exist.

 

[Santy]

All discussions on DBT goes here!

 

[Ambio]

Ahh ok so that is the case!
Believe me, from the day 1 when Ambio joined this forum, seeing his all good equipments list and at the same time he is non-believer of cable, Amp, CDP etc I thought something is wrong because his system is supposed to be revealing enough to find these differences.
I was unaware of the Herbeth case. So this clears pretty much everything.

I am not using Harbeth anymore and have no regrets. Speaking of discovering micro details, nothing could revealed as much as speakers do. Yesterday, I wanted to add another Harbeth vs SL from prem Joshua's Water down the Ganges and I couldn't figure out which portion of the track Trust that I recorded. The music was so rich with so many new sounds. Destiny Child Writing on the Wall was a shocker. You want real SQ than go for the real things. You want a fast car buy a faster car. But you would see many modify the engines add a low profile tyre and a spoiler and expect them to perform like a real sports car.


No cables upgrade could reveal more than a simple better speakers upgrade. I was a strong believer of good power suply, vibration control, jitter reduction and almost everything else. Despite that I never let my emotion clouded my mind. In fact, in the early 2000s I even stated in a Newsgroup participated by Kal Rubinson ( no forums in those days) that I don't see SACD multi channel or even SACD to grow because the sound quality was not as obvious as I wanted. In fact, I wasn't even satisfied with stereo and thought multi channel gave a better experience but it lacked the accuracy.

The only way, I wanted to be sure that I am on the right track is to experiment. I don't trust my ears if it involves emotion in my decision. remember the saying - you only see what you want to see. in audiophiles case, you will hear what you want to hear. I could just stop bothering anyone in this forum about their cables obsession but this is a community that we all have common objective of a better sound with what we have.

I could have taken the advice of the guru and upgraded the cables and what not. Initially, I took their advice but as times go by I realised despite the term audiophile connotes high fidelity but it turned out to be a cult with more rituals than substance. I could alway move back from ambiophonics to stereo and start to buy cables and speak the language of the audiophiles. No I won't and if one guy in this forum could safe himself from wasting his money in trivial upgrades than I am satisfied. Go for real upgrade. The next time someone talks about depth or soundstage bring them to a live unamplified band and ask them to play the same song that you have.

 

[sarith]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Me confused. Care to elaborate? Meanwhile, Online Audiogram and Hearing Test | Unbiased & Free

Thank you for the link. It was fun. Saved my graph

 

[Ambio]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

Thank you for the link. It was fun. Saved my graph

You are most welcome. Mine down by 5 dB at 8 kHz vs my 15 year son's hearing. :sos::sos: but still within 10 dB. Not bad for a fifty year old ah?

 

[sarith]

Re: Are CD Player still relevant?

You are most welcome. Mine down by 5 dB at 8 kHz vs my 15 year son's hearing. :sos::sos: but still within 10 dB. Not bad for a fifty year old ah?

Thankfully, mine looks good for someone in early 30's. 8k in 1st row and the rest in the second row.

 

[captrajesh]

Mods have bifurcated the thread and posts have gone haywire. Hence quoting all the threads that are relevant to my post below:-

Some would rather use their ears to judge sound but when it comes to buying gold or 1kg onion or 1 liter petrol they would rely on measurements rather than their senses. Dr.Bowes described this as a new form of neurosis known as audiophilia. He discovered that long before I was even born!

Forget apple to apple comparison this is not even fruit to any other fruit comparison. Do you sincerely believe stereotyping all of them as one bunch is a correct thing to do!

Why not? It applies to all who rather rely on their senses rather than science. To illustrate how poor is our hearing. Ask someone to play the same track everyday at 0.1dB difference and you try to guess the correct level. 0.1dB is too small? Ok...make it 1dB . Than, at least we can believe that the person who could hear the difference indeed in possession of super hearing. Ever seen any audiophiles tried to prove their hearing superiority by identifying pitch? phase? loudness? highest audible frequency?

The topic of discussion is whether one should rather use his senses or the so called specifications to base ones judgement on which sound is pleasing to ones ears. Hope we are on the same page here. What has science got to do here!! FYI I've graduated with pure sciences as majors so there is no confusion on my part.

Just because an average person's hearing cannot differentiate 0.1 dB / 1 dB change in amplitude (as per your post) it doesn't mean that he would be unable to perceive what pleases his ears. It is like saying, a person who doesn't have 6/7 eyesight cannot be a marksman.

It's a totally different ball game. :argue:

The next significant sound level is +/- 3 dB (from a given reference level). Human hearing acuity is not blessed with the ability to distinguish 0.1 dB difference (or even 1 dB), but most people can make out a difference when difference is of the order of 3 dB.

Actually, you could tell 0.1dB after some training and side by side comparison. There must be a few recording engineers in this forum. Anyone?

And a few posts later you say this!! I'm not sure what your point is!!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The topic of discussion is whether one should rather use his senses or the so called specifications to base ones judgement on which sound is pleasing to ones ears.

Rajesh, i thought it was about double-blind tests. That has nothing to do with specifications, or even measurements, and it is certainly not double-blind tests versus hearing. As I understand it, it is completely the opposite: it is very much about using one's hearing, and allowing it to function unencumbered by other senses or mental processes.

Blind testing is about listening: pure listening. Using the ears, trusting the ears. Ears can be trusted: it's other stuff that gets in the way.

What's not to like about that?

(It's hard work and a pain to set up. Anything involving hardware means planning, preparation and team work. It is not something one can do on a whim at 3.00am. That's what I don't like about it! Thing is, though, most "audiophiles" are really a great deal more dedicated than I am.)