Dsd
- Thread starter sidvee
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IndianEars
Well-Known Member
Hi Sidvee,
I am a Hi Res fan, and have been collecting music in Hi Res ( 24/xxx and DSD formats ).
A local rip of a Red book ( 16/44 ) is good, but has the CD sonic signature ( Digital Sound).
The Hi Res version of the same takes the sound up progressively, adding better resolution, better in all respects, but maintaining the digital sonic signature.
DSD (or SACD) changes the sound and makes it far more analog sounding ... smoother, without loss of detail.
I have with me the Redbook, 24/96, 24/192 and SACD versions of several albums, and they all point in the above direction.... to my ears !
I am a Hi Res fan, and have been collecting music in Hi Res ( 24/xxx and DSD formats ).
A local rip of a Red book ( 16/44 ) is good, but has the CD sonic signature ( Digital Sound).
The Hi Res version of the same takes the sound up progressively, adding better resolution, better in all respects, but maintaining the digital sonic signature.
DSD (or SACD) changes the sound and makes it far more analog sounding ... smoother, without loss of detail.
I have with me the Redbook, 24/96, 24/192 and SACD versions of several albums, and they all point in the above direction.... to my ears !
Thanks IndianEars. I also have a few albums with redbook, hi rez and SACD versions. Other day I was playing the SACD (via my ancient oppo bdp83) of the Miles davis classic "kind of Blue" - I also have 16/44 & 24/192 of the same version, and to my ears the SACD sounded very nice (smooth & musical). So I am quite curious how the DSD version would sound. Hence, I have begun a hunt for replacing my Ayon Skylla II dac, with either the Sigma/Stealth from Ayon or some other options. Lets see how it goes.
There seem to be a lot of mixed reviews on superiority of DSD both from users and even mfrs, however it appears only way for me to resolve that will be by taking the plunge.
Cheers,
Sid
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I have not extensively listened to DSD music though I was living with a DAC supporting this format for several months due to obvious reasons (lack of content). The main issue in such a comparison is availability of same music originally mastered in DSD as well as in PCM. I for one believe DSD is slightly a better format if all else is the same. The sound is somewhat darker, more lively and natural (eerily so). But 24-bit PCM is very close I would say. I guess it all depends on the mastering process. A well mastered album on red book format would sound better than an average quality mastering done in DSD. On of the biggest challenges with DSD is that it is technically un-editable posing difficulties in mixing. So recording studios may not prefer it even if the hardware becomes cheaper.
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And that is also my main concern at this point Santy. Specifically for the music I like to listen to, appears a lot of DSD realeases are western classical which is not a genre I listen to much. Hence I held off so far on looking at DSD dacs, but now there seems to be a momentum building.
Cheers,
Sid
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Any DSD release would have been converted to PCM 352k DXD at some point in time during the mastering and mixing process since as santy mentioned, DSD can't be edited directly. This basically negates any process advantage that pure delta sigma modulation might have.
So it basically it boils down to the dac's conversion and filtering abilities on what format will sound better. Many so called DSD DACs that accept DoP input actually perform an internal PCM conversion which is worse than feeding pure PCM. The ideal case would be to have a pure 1-bit delta sigma converter with DSD optimized filtering and an r2r ladder DAC with PCM optimized filtering for everything else.
Disclaimer: Personally I have never heard a DSD DAC. Would love to listen sometime in the future.
So it basically it boils down to the dac's conversion and filtering abilities on what format will sound better. Many so called DSD DACs that accept DoP input actually perform an internal PCM conversion which is worse than feeding pure PCM. The ideal case would be to have a pure 1-bit delta sigma converter with DSD optimized filtering and an r2r ladder DAC with PCM optimized filtering for everything else.
Disclaimer: Personally I have never heard a DSD DAC. Would love to listen sometime in the future.
IndianEars
Well-Known Member
reignofchaos: I agree with the theoritical aspect as outlined by you. Even my DAC does DoP.
However as always, the Proof Of The Pudding is in the Eating.
Do Sample DSD. On a well set up system, the difference is subtle but quite distinct. 100% recognisable as DSD ... to me atleast !
sidvee: For DSD content, be careful! I guess you are aware, but let me restate it anyways.... You cannot rip a SACD... except in a roundabout way using the 1st Gen PS-3, and some convoluted procedure.
For all practical purposes, getting DSD content into yr HDD is via Downloads of a PS-3 rip.
Each PS3 Rip is 2.5GB to 3.5GB ( Yes G b ! )
I am currently burning 175GB per month collecting HiRes !
However as always, the Proof Of The Pudding is in the Eating.
Do Sample DSD. On a well set up system, the difference is subtle but quite distinct. 100% recognisable as DSD ... to me atleast !
sidvee: For DSD content, be careful! I guess you are aware, but let me restate it anyways.... You cannot rip a SACD... except in a roundabout way using the 1st Gen PS-3, and some convoluted procedure.
For all practical purposes, getting DSD content into yr HDD is via Downloads of a PS-3 rip.
Each PS3 Rip is 2.5GB to 3.5GB ( Yes G b ! )
I am currently burning 175GB per month collecting HiRes !
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with you - that is why there was a huge disclaimer in my post :lol:.
Would love to listen to DSD sometime in the near future once some real content that I listen to appears. Similar to sidvee, I do not listen to western classical much and as a result have ignored it so far. It would be great if someone launches a high quality mid-fi DSD only DAC which is optimized for the same. Something similar to schitt did with one of their dacs - only something better.
Fantastic
Well-Known Member
I heard the Mytek DSD DAC over headphones. Don't remember which one but it was a high end headphone.
All I can say is that the sound was very good but I couldn't really make out the difference between regular 16/44.1 and the DSD format like 'night and day'. Both tracks were unfortunately different but both were outstanding !
I see a lot of debate about the standard 16 bit/44.1Khz being really good enough. But I have heard higher bit rates that appeared smoother. Is that due to the filtering behaviour of the DAC ? Higher bit rates being easier to filter and possibly leaving less artifacts in the audio domain ? We can't be sure right now. Marketing WILL always push for higher priced offerings to make more money more easily even if they are really not much better !
I have heard some regular CD's sounding superb. Obviously a lot depends on the original recording method also.
I just listened again to a recording of Allan Parsons I Robot. One side is a 24/192 version and the other side is the 24/96 version of the same recording. They sound different not as in better or worse but in sound stage. The 24/192 seems to have some sounds a bit recessed ! Wonder why. The player is an OPPO-BDP93. I have never been convinced that higher bit rates are inherently much better sounding. Some of the older 16bit /44.1Khz recordings are also outstanding. Depends on who recorded it and the quality of the DAC used to play it back!
High res is certainly not yet good enough for the extra expense and trouble that one has to go to.
I came across the following Youtube video that some of you might find interesting. This one is nicely done and restricted to audio applications. He has put it across very nicely and I think even the layman would be able to get to grips with what it's all about. Check it out. Enjoy !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM
Also this article on high res downloads.
http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
All I can say is that the sound was very good but I couldn't really make out the difference between regular 16/44.1 and the DSD format like 'night and day'. Both tracks were unfortunately different but both were outstanding !
I see a lot of debate about the standard 16 bit/44.1Khz being really good enough. But I have heard higher bit rates that appeared smoother. Is that due to the filtering behaviour of the DAC ? Higher bit rates being easier to filter and possibly leaving less artifacts in the audio domain ? We can't be sure right now. Marketing WILL always push for higher priced offerings to make more money more easily even if they are really not much better !
I have heard some regular CD's sounding superb. Obviously a lot depends on the original recording method also.
I just listened again to a recording of Allan Parsons I Robot. One side is a 24/192 version and the other side is the 24/96 version of the same recording. They sound different not as in better or worse but in sound stage. The 24/192 seems to have some sounds a bit recessed ! Wonder why. The player is an OPPO-BDP93. I have never been convinced that higher bit rates are inherently much better sounding. Some of the older 16bit /44.1Khz recordings are also outstanding. Depends on who recorded it and the quality of the DAC used to play it back!
High res is certainly not yet good enough for the extra expense and trouble that one has to go to.
I came across the following Youtube video that some of you might find interesting. This one is nicely done and restricted to audio applications. He has put it across very nicely and I think even the layman would be able to get to grips with what it's all about. Check it out. Enjoy !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM
Also this article on high res downloads.
http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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M
mpw
Guest
Sometimes folks enjoy sensory experiences like audio when they are told beforehand what they will experience.
For example..a signal coded 44 times and upsampled 96 times and with 144 cycles of jitter...and then matrixed
Into PCM is glory inducing ( or joy !! or even bigger !! ) ...than what the poor artist wanted to put out with his limited means in 1970.
we invent new means of listening to the same old stuff.
and maybe thats why a Blind test is good to have a reality check.
Njoi !!
Rgds
For example..a signal coded 44 times and upsampled 96 times and with 144 cycles of jitter...and then matrixed
Into PCM is glory inducing ( or joy !! or even bigger !! ) ...than what the poor artist wanted to put out with his limited means in 1970.
we invent new means of listening to the same old stuff.
and maybe thats why a Blind test is good to have a reality check.
Njoi !!
Rgds
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Sid,
DSD is the real deal. I had posted info on another thread but reposting on here again two articles from Positive Feedback by Andreas Koch who is a pioneer in SACD and DSD. Koch along with Ed Meitner developed practical DSD conversion.
DSD - the New Addiction
Resolving for Resolution
The argument in favour of DSD scheme is best described by this illustration below:
DSD is the real deal. I had posted info on another thread but reposting on here again two articles from Positive Feedback by Andreas Koch who is a pioneer in SACD and DSD. Koch along with Ed Meitner developed practical DSD conversion.
DSD - the New Addiction
Resolving for Resolution
The argument in favour of DSD scheme is best described by this illustration below:
Fantastic
Well-Known Member
Fantastic, that article refers to PCM only i.e. 16 bit PCM vs 24 bit PCM.
DSD is a totally different from PCM.
Fantastic
Well-Known Member
Right. That was about the bits. I thought it would be interesting to some people.
Sunday is a long day !
Sunday is a long day !
Didn't realize the file size is so big. Wow!
Not much into the technical aspects but have some DSD files which i play thru the IFI IDSD Nano using Jriver 20 and they sound great but they do take up a lot of space.Just found a site called DSD Database link below.
https://docs.google.com/a/nativedsd...Kcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0
https://docs.google.com/a/nativedsd...Kcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0
Thanks Nikhil,
Though I have not heard DSD ripped/downloaded files, I have about 30 SACD's and I have always preferred these over the same Cd's during my disc listening days. My test of great sound has always been simply defined by the fatigue I feel after long duration of listening (+2 hour sessions), and I never ever felt any fatigue what so ever after 2-3 hours of SACD spinning . So BT/DBT/ABX tests aside (anyways my fatigue test is way beyond any scientific test - imagine all the poor listeners /testers sitting for over 2 hours to determine the best sound:lol:, and it is not subjective at all, the discomfort in my ears with some substandard recordings/equipment is so real that I can identify them 100% correctly every single time), I am quite convinced about DSD being better if not superior and the closest convergence between digital and analog. Only issue is availability of downloads and the scary file size that IndianEars alluded to. However storage is cheap, so I guess I will take the plunge soon.
Cheers,
Sid
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sud98
Well-Known Member
I thought all SACD's were encoded using DSD technology. So if you have SACD's how havent you heard DSD tracks esp. if you are using the oppo bdp83 which can handle the native DSD.
I guess I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was that I have not heard DSD ripped/downloaded computer based files played back using a music PC and Jriver MC 19 vs having heard physical SACD discs via my oppo bdp83.
Similar to Cd players and music pcs playing back 16/44 rips of the CD.
Also there is no way to rip DSD from SACD's other than using the first gen sony ps3.
Cheers,
Sid
The difference between PCM and DSD is pretty noticeable.
It gets even better when you go from DSD to Double DSD (DSD128).
Since my DAC doesn't support DSD I use JRiver to handle the conversion.
Even though this isn't native DSD it sounds noticeably better. This is a puzzle to me.
I have been trying to get more information on why this is - just to understand what's going on.
I have to qualify this by saying this has been my experience so far. Still a work in progress ...
It gets even better when you go from DSD to Double DSD (DSD128).
Since my DAC doesn't support DSD I use JRiver to handle the conversion.
Even though this isn't native DSD it sounds noticeably better. This is a puzzle to me.
I have been trying to get more information on why this is - just to understand what's going on.
I have to qualify this by saying this has been my experience so far. Still a work in progress ...
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