Ear Fatigue

[Thad E Ginathom]

is there any proof of such claim that different types of interconnects can change the sound to the extent that our ears can detect the change in sound signature or quality !!!?

Actually, yes, there is. Or at least, there are reasonable explanations about what does and does not do so. Start with Speaker Wire: a History. It busts some myths, but also talks about what really can happen.

Copper, silver, warm, cold? Such correlations don't make sense to me personally, but hey, I have friends who think otherwise, just as I have friends who swear that power chords make a difference...

 

[corElement]

what about the other components in the chain!? amplifiers, preamps, source...those don't have any effect on the sound?

Everything has an effect on sound. Including not having something. The challenge is matching components to achieve good synergy that match one's personal preference.

I think it should be possible to remove whatever brightness or harshness with proper design of box, xover and especially component quality used in xovers

Unless the designer of the speaker thinks whats bright to you is normal for him. What then?

This is relative. Because brightness is not limited to direct firing speakers or crossovers only.

People may find it in electrostatic and manger full rangers designed with no crossovers at all.

The objective is achieving synergy. To what extent you want to go to achieve that is relative to each.

...experts in the forum should be able to explain this in detail...i believe interconnects and connectors can possibly contribute not more than 5% in deciding sound quality/signature....

In the real world few go opening up a speaker or amp and changing things inside. Speakers are designed as how their designer envisioned them to sound as. Only a minority do so who want to design their own sound. While the rest of the world tries to find components which have synergy according to their preference.

It's like a painting, you either appreciate the artist and put it in a gallery in a specific lighting to bring out it's qualities, or you put it on a wall in a shabby room with neon tube lights and it's no different from any other piece of work.

Would you go and tamper a painting like the Mona Lisa just because you don't like it? Not if you valued it, if you didn't then obviously you can if it were in your bedroom. But it's not, and for good reason.

The 5% you mention is very very relative. To you it's 5%, while to another the 5% can make or break the system. That 5% multiplies into 50% and makes it unbearable.

 

[kanwar]

what about the other components in the chain!? amplifiers, preamps, source...those don't have any effect on the sound?
i think it should be possible to remove whatever brightness or harshness with proper design of box, xover and especially component quality used in xovers...experts in the forum should be able to explain this in detail...i believe interconnects and connectors can possibly contribute not more than 5% in deciding sound quality/signature....

+1

Placebo effect of brain should never be underestimated. RLC of cables is not that much significant which would alter the sound 100%.

 

[corElement]

+1

Placebo effect of brain should never be underestimated. RLC of cables is not that much significant which would alter the sound 100%.

Ears hurting on two people are not placebo man Cables have as much potential as an amp or source to ruin a setup to the extent it's painful to listen to if not matched properly. It may be just 5% but it's an unacceptable 5%.

I and avid have experienced this first hand when we inter matched each others interconnects and were shocked to hear so.

 

[soundnovice]

unless preamp, amp and drivers have flat or near flat response, then the only solution left is to run around trying diff. types of cables from diff. manufacturers selling at exotic prices!

 

[kanwar]

Ears hurting on two people are not placebo man Cables have as much potential as an amp or source to ruin a setup to the extent it's painful to listen to if not matched properly. It may be just 5% but it's an unacceptable 5%.

I and avid have experienced this first hand when we inter matched each others interconnects and were shocked to hear so.

Then it seems something else is grossly wrong, if you think its due to cables then you are mocking the science in itself.

Maybe improper terminations/shielding etc could have changed the sound but just having a different material won't make up for the cause. Different materials have different resistances for sure, but those level of impedance won't alter the sound to that degree unless there is wrong with the gear in itself.

The case is different if the cables are speaker cables and lossy passive crossovers are in path between amp and drivers. But in case of interconnects from pre to amp, this doesn't matter to that much degree.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

I think the people in this thread are missing the obvious, even if the cables change the sound then -

1) It is doing so by altering the input signal and thereby the frequency response and possibly the distortion profile. It is probably being designed to do this by the companies who make them. I think people do not understand that the distortion profile of speakers is audible even at lower levels and typically people associate distortion with heavily distorted sound when speakers are in severe thermal and/or mechanical distress rather than realizing that pretty much all sound from speakers contain some amount of distortion which imparts the tone/flavor/(insert audiophool word here).

2) A cable is meant to NOT color the signal in anyway. Doing so takes away from the goals of accurate signal reproduction, and even hinders the ability of one to EQ the system to taste.

Speakers,amps and the lot like cables are NOT meant to alter the sound, this is the job of DSP. However this is exactly what audiophools prefer. Rather than learn about the science of audio and use DSPs they prefer to use equipment that naturally alters the frequency response and THD profile to suit their tastes and then proclaim it to be transparent and accurate or whatever though it is far from the truth. Tube based equipment are excellent examples of this. The room is also a major player, I don't believe most people here realize that the room is at the very least 1/3rd of what you hear and routinely underestimate its importance or neglect it altogether.

Learn to use a DSP. It really does help if you know what your doing and can measure the systems performance.

 

[corElement]

Then it seems something else is grossly wrong, if you think its due to cables then you are mocking the science in itself.

Maybe improper terminations/shielding etc could have changed the sound but just having a different material won't make up for the cause. Different materials have different resistances for sure, but those level of impedance won't alter the sound to that degree unless there is wrong with the gear in itself.

The case is different if the cables are speaker cables and lossy passive crossovers are in path between amp and drivers. But in case of interconnects from pre to amp, this doesn't matter to that much degree.

I think you misunderstood..

While my setup sounded great with my IC it was unbearably bright with Avids.
And while Avids setup sounded great with his IC, it sounded half dead with my IC.

Both our cables are copper... but two entirely different configurations...with entirely different terminations.
There is nothing wrong in either of the cables in question.

It is purely a matter of what has synergy with something and what doesn't.
The high-end audio industry doesn't exist for nothing.
As you go up the ladder, your gear becomes extremely sensitive to what components you pair them to.

All I'm saying is that have an open mind. I have heard speakers and amps which sound the same regardless
of what you put on the chain. This does not mean it's flat or uncolored. It simply means it is not transparent
enough to reveal the change. If a rusted copper cable and an new copper cable sound the same, then 100%
for certainty the components on the chain are unable to reveal the shortcomings.

Everything is coloured in their own way regardless of how much people say this or that is not coloured.
Even the lack of colouration is a type of colour. All we can do is find that which we prefer.

I can't afford to tinker around with power cables nor can I provide clean power because of India's power,
but if I were in a country where power is regulated properly, and I had the money to invest in high end power cables.
I am 100% sure that I can alter the signature of my setup's sound. High end power cables wouldn't exist otherwise.

 

[arj]

I think you misunderstood..

While my setup sounded great with my IC it was unbearably bright with Avids.
And while Avids setup sounded great with his IC, it sounded half dead with my IC.

Don't waste your time explaining those who believe are happy with the belief and the changes they make and those who don't are happy in theirs and the lack of change





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The high-end audio industry doesn't exist for nothing.

Some of it does, and, of course, one can fool some of the people some of the time. Not all of it does.

I have heard speakers and amps which sound the same regardless of what you put on the chain. This does not mean it's flat or uncolored. It simply means it is not transparent enough to reveal the change.

Or that it is designed not to be affected by it? I'd have to do a lot of searching to quote anybody on that, but it is a point of view that I think some senior engineers and designers would agree with.

Actually, one of those quotes came from the boss of Kimber, something to the effect that, with some kit, whatever they cable it with didn't seem to make much difference --- and he did not add, "because it is cheap and unresolving." I like that!

If I ever do a cable upgrade, Kimber might well get my money, on the strength of honesty. (I think they make expensive USB cables too, but hey, nobody's perfect :lol: )

I think Decadent Spectre makes some very good points, but that they do not apply to much of the hifi industry, low mid or high. The aim is not transparency, unless setting up a pro monitoring system. The aim is the sound that people choose to listen to. As well as the many more on cables, we have a thread on that too, don't we?

If hifi really was about high fidelity, and transparency was seriously sought by designers and buyers, there would probably very much less mixing and matching, because what would be the point? If two amplifiers are both transparent, then why would one change one for the other?

The only thing is... i do think we have a right to shop for, research, buy and tweak until we get the sound that we want.

Transparency could even be ...fatiguing!

 

[kanwar]

I think you misunderstood..

While my setup sounded great with my IC it was unbearably bright with Avids.
And while Avids setup sounded great with his IC, it sounded half dead with my IC.

I can't afford to tinker around with power cables nor can I provide clean power because of India's power,
but if I were in a country where power is regulated properly, and I had the money to invest in high end power cables.
I am 100% sure that I can alter the signature of my setup's sound. High end power cables wouldn't exist otherwise.

Dear,
Am i missing something here?

High End Power cables......................There is a term known as snake oil and so called high end manufacturers are brilliant in doing such magic....
So as per you the quality of so called high end power cables few meters in length makes difference against the wire/cable which is used from grid main lines running thru locality having much less copper content in them running kilometers length......???????:clapping:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

i think there are any number of threads where this controversy can be rekindled. It would be nice to focus on what it is that actually happens when sound that it not overtly bad causes fatigue.

 

[corElement]

Some of it does, and, of course, one can fool some of the people some of the time. Not all of it does.

Completely true.

Or that it is designed not to be affected by it? I'd have to do a lot of searching to quote anybody on that, but it is a point of view that I think some senior engineers and designers would agree with.

Actually, one of those quotes came from the boss of Kimber, something to the effect that, with some kit, whatever they cable it with didn't seem to make much difference --- and he did not add, "because it is cheap and unresolving." I like that!

Most definitely, there is nothing wrong with unresolving sound if it's as how one prefers it. Infact I myself often am drawn towards unresolving sound on days I feel like listening to certain genres.

I think Decadent Spectre makes some very good points, but that they do not apply to much of the hifi industry, low mid or high. The aim is not transparency, unless setting up a pro monitoring system. The aim is the sound that people choose to listen to.

Yep, I totally agree in regards to people choosing what sound they want to listen to and going that direction.

If hifi really was about high fidelity, and transparency was seriously sought by designers and buyers, there would probably very much less mixing and matching, because what would be the point? If two amplifiers are both transparent, then why would one change one for the other?

It's a lot more than just transparency though, that's one of the base criteria.

The only thing is... i do think we have a right to shop for, research, buy and tweak until we get the sound that we want.

Yep, till we get the sound we prefer to listen to.

Transparency could even be ...fatiguing!

It is! It often feels like food being shoved down your throat when you don't want it

I find myself switching between a Hi-fi and Ho-fi setup as per mood.

Don't waste your time explaining those who believe are happy with the belief and the changes they make and those who don't are happy in theirs and the lack of change

I shall take your advice

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I should like to get off the cable thing here, but,

Most definitely, there is nothing wrong with unresolving sound if it's as how one prefers it.

No, that wasn't about unresolving systems, it was about hifi systems and whether cables make a difference or not. If you have ever followed any of my links, you'll have been there --- and when I say "my" links, it's quite possible I followed it from someone else's post here. It's the tale that, perhaps more than anything, puts this thing in perspective for me. I'll get that link.

EDIT: it's here and I might have misrepresented it. He talks about "mundane" systems as well as "systems designed to handle difficult loads," and I thought I understood it before but now I am not quite sure.

Anyway, the full story starts here and it is only a couple of pages in all --- it's worth reading whichever end of the cable debate one sits at.


.

 

[corElement]

I should like to get off the cable thing here, but,

No, that wasn't about unresolving systems, it was about hifi systems and whether cables make a difference or not. If you have ever followed any of my links, you'll have been there --- and when I say "my" links, it's quite possible I followed it from someone else's post here. It's the tale that, perhaps more than anything, puts this thing in perspective for me. I'll get that link.

??? confused but ok

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Yes... a bit confused tonight

 

[deba]

If you listen to bright speakers or make it bright by increasing the low and high frequencies, you will enjoy such sound for certain time but your ear will fatigue and there will be a sense of listening tiredness.

 

[soundnovice]

If you listen to bright speakers or make it bright by increasing the low and high frequencies, you will enjoy such sound for certain time but your ear will fatigue and there will be a sense of listening tiredness.

+1
aim for flat response. not bright, cold, warm or dark or whatever.
you will experience the 'bliss' when u hit the flat response on your system. and that will never fatigue

 

[corElement]

+1
aim for flat response. not bright, cold, warm or dark or whatever.
you will experience the 'bliss' when u hit the flat response on your system. and that will never fatigue

It's very easy to say "Aim for flat",

but the fact is flat on paper does not always translate to real world bliss.

Whats flat to you can be bright or dull to me.
Then someone comes and says it's too warm for them.

What then?


It's all relative to each individual. If you notice my earlier comments on the thread it mentions how one's body finds the same setup unbearable at one point of the day, and fine at another point of the day.

There is no such thing as flat/neutral/uncoloured. It's an imaginary destination represented by a line on a chart and not by our bodies.

My setup is flat with my IC and bright with another IC. But even then on certain days I find it fatiguing and other days I don't. Suppose I got the setup based on your comments on get a flat response, and now I'm suddenly finding it bright. Who do I blame? do I blame the gear? do I blame you? do I blame myself?


The context I'm trying to bring up is not to use common denominators when you select sound for yourself and to use common denominators only reference has to be made or taken, as it is something very relative to a considerable number of variables. If I sat down now to write a list of the variables I wouldn't finish. We can't change the variables because it's all relative. We just need to find something that we like, and go with it

 

[joyous]

It's very easy to say "Aim for flat",



The context I'm trying to bring up is not to use common denominators when you select sound for yourself and to use common denominators only reference has to be made or taken, as it is something very relative to a considerable number of variables. If I sat down now to write a list of the variables I wouldn't finish. We can't change the variables because it's all relative. We just need to find something that we like, and go with it

Being content with 'perceivable' possibilities is anti-scientific spirit. If something is a 'need', there must be a way to obtain it. That's how all inventions are made.