Few questions about fullrange speakers

[Hiten]

Hello everyone,
after review of swami69's DIY speakers it seems with DIY amp and speaker building you have more control of things you want in Hifi.
kindly answer my few questions regarding speakers...

1) Which are good quality/efficient value for money fullrangers ?
2) In speakers, are backwaves always unwanted or are there any advantages of them other than bass reflex/low fq. enhancement ?
3) Are there any 'classic' speaker cabinet designs for full rangers which give good fq. response and controls backwaves with minimum effect on efficiency of speakers?
4) Can shortcomings of fullrange speakers and cabinets design be overcome by passive crossovers or multidriver or anything else ?
5) What about totally enclosed speakers ? Does that mean drivers of totally enclosed cabinet are 'super' efficient ?
6) SQ wise which are better ~ fullrangers or 2/3 way speakers with active/passive crossovers ?
7) A full range driver mounted on heavy single panel which has totally open backside and walls facing backside of this driver has sound absorbers ~ wouldn't that be a good approach ?

Thanks

 

[GeorgeO]

Hi HIten

I have had 2 ways for many years until the single driver bug finally bit and i built a Fosext based system.As Cranky said , there are many drivers used for FR, and in addition to those that he mentioned, Lowthers, CSS and Jordans are also popular, though at different price points.

My own experience has been that a sub is needed, with my speakers. Many designs are available, either free or at a price, from simple bookshelfs to TLs to the more complicated horns, you have to make your choice.

 

[swami69]

Thanks Cranky for your detailed explanation. Very informative and shall keep as ready reckoner for future projects .

Hiten - particularly on cabinet designs - there are plenty of proven designs available over the web and you need to do a thorough study and analysis based on each driver configuration (atleast on paper) with those information incase you want to get into serious building. Many plans, test results etc.,

While i read many things over the net, i just wanted to try something as a start up and ended up with a beginners FR. Mine may be no comparison to something built with precise dimensions, structure, materials etc.,


All the very best.

swami

 

[stevieboy]

aha hiten, fingers itching to get something going eh? all the best! single drivers do sound good lets see how you like them

regards

 

[mekr]

i am also looking for drivers of vintage like RCA Altec or western electric and start DIY project for speakers,these were basically used in old theatres

 

[Rajiv]

i am also looking for drivers of vintage like RCA Altec or western electric and start DIY project for speakers,these were basically used in old theatres

Hi,

You should be able to find the post war RCA's and Altec drivers ,However the pre war WESTREX,RCA stuff is very rare and you will have to be very lucky to find them.

There is a person in Bangalore who deals in this stuff on Ebay,he has the RCA field coils,westrex field coils and Lansing 287 field coil drivers.

He will sell only at top Ebay prices,he is also one of the top rated vintage sellers on Ebay.His network extends all over the country and will be able to source top quality stuff at top Ebay prices.

The south east asian dealers have also been scouring the country for tubes and vintage stuff from the late 80's.Most of the good stuff is gone but it is possible to get lucky.

Altec 288C drivers which were going for Rs 1000/ a few years back are now being quoted at Rs5000-6000/ for singles with blown diaphagrams.

A pair will set you back $200 and replacement dias from Great Plains Audio is another $200.So you are looking at about $500 for a good set of Altec 288c drivers.

Altec 802's are around Rs.500-1000 each.

Altec 416 woofers are more common than the 515 's.They will be arund Rs.1500-3000 each but will certyainly need reconing which will be around $200/ a pair from Great Plains .

The Rca's are slightly cheaper ,and most often the Diaphagrams are OK as they are phenolic but they will have the rear bakelite cover damaged.

Get in touch with an old cinema repair tech,he will be able to source stuff.For RCA try to contact the old Photophone guys.Altec was marketed by Westrex India.Klangfilm had an office both in Bombay and Madras but our friend from Bangalore bought the entire lot(tubes ,speakers crossovers etc) from them and made out like a bandit on Ebay these past few months.He sold a mono field coil speaker for over $10,000/.


Regards
Rajiv

 

[keith_correa]

1) Which are good quality/efficient value for money fullrangers?

Take a look at the Audio Nirvana drivers from CommonSense Audio - though these sometimes provoke/d some extreme reactions from people who have heard them and people who have not heard them but who rely on graphs/charts/measurements to decide what's good or bad.

Also check out the Betsy here

Cranky mentioned this:

4. I believe the best way to run a wideband speaker is like that - wideband. Which means you should cross over at the top (with a super tweeter aka Fostex) and the bottom (aka the Amitys and similar) and let the fullranger do the rest of the honours. Crossovers are used to restrict the bandwidth to individual drivers in a multi-way system. Inherently they bring some compromises (phase and impulse response issues) but do have advantages (better dispersion, power response, power handling and polar response).

For a classic implementation of this see here

 

[keith_correa]

There's also the so called BOFU. It's a Pioneer driver. See here

 

[anilva]

Hi,

You should be able to find the post war RCA's and Altec drivers ,However the pre war WESTREX,RCA stuff is very rare and you will have to be very lucky to find them.

There is a person in Bangalore who deals in this stuff on Ebay,he has the RCA field coils,westrex field coils and Lansing 287 field coil drivers.

He will sell only at top Ebay prices,he is also one of the top rated vintage sellers on Ebay.His network extends all over the country and will be able to source top quality stuff at top Ebay prices.

The south east asian dealers have also been scouring the country for tubes and vintage stuff from the late 80's.Most of the good stuff is gone but it is possible to get lucky.

Altec 288C drivers which were going for Rs 1000/ a few years back are now being quoted at Rs5000-6000/ for singles with blown diaphagrams.

A pair will set you back $200 and replacement dias from Great Plains Audio is another $200.So you are looking at about $500 for a good set of Altec 288c drivers.

Altec 802's are around Rs.500-1000 each.

Altec 416 woofers are more common than the 515 's.They will be arund Rs.1500-3000 each but will certyainly need reconing which will be around $200/ a pair from Great Plains .

The Rca's are slightly cheaper ,and most often the Diaphagrams are OK as they are phenolic but they will have the rear bakelite cover damaged.

Get in touch with an old cinema repair tech,he will be able to source stuff.For RCA try to contact the old Photophone guys.Altec was marketed by Westrex India.Klangfilm had an office both in Bombay and Madras but our friend from Bangalore bought the entire lot(tubes ,speakers crossovers etc) from them and made out like a bandit on Ebay these past few months.He sold a mono field coil speaker for over $10,000/.


Regards
Rajiv

Tried various places to buy Altec 802s but did not find any. Seems easier to buy on Ebay rather than going around country. Problem is getting that heavy stuff from US to India. Everyone talks of this guy from Bangalore who buys all the vintage stuff and sells on Ebay.

Regards

 

[hemantwaghe]

I am a novice in this field but anyway anyone Heard tannoy gold monitor -dual concentric speakers? Are they same? Sometimes back I healped a guy to procure 12 Inch one....

Of late I saw increased demand for these

 

[Rajiv]

Tried various places to buy Altec 802s but did not find any

Hi,

If you are still interested in getting Altec 802's I can give you the contact number of a cinema service tech in B'lore.He has helped me get some drivers in the past.

You might find Altec 808's which are the same as the 802 but with a different diaphagram.(Symbiotic)
You will have to get new replacement diaphagrams from Great Plains Audio as I have never found altec 802/808 drivers with original diaphagrams.

A pair of 802/808 drivers should not cost more than Rs.2500.The best version of the Altec 802 is the 802G/808B.This is the FINAL Alnico version with the Tangarine phase plug and bigger magnetfor increased/better frequency response.

Later Altec 902's with ceramic magnets and the tangarine phase plug should also be available.

I am a novice in this field but anyway anyone Heard tannoy gold monitor -dual concentric speakers? Are they same? Sometimes back I healped a guy to procure 12 Inch one....

You should have kept the 12 inch Monitor Gold for yourself.

I have a pair of 15 inch Monitor Golds and they are fantastic.Though they are around 95db sensitive I found that they like to be driven by amps with a bit of grunt. Though they sound nice with the SET2A3/45 amp they really come alive with a little more power.
Tannoys are remarkably musical and non-fussy. they are a lot more forgiving than the Altec's.Tannoy can sound good with solid state amps too.

Personally I like the Tannoy with el84 or tight el34 amps. SE amps should only be used if they are greater than 8 big watts.

You will need big heavy cabinets around 200 liters for them to sound their best.

The big Tannoys and ALTECS are hard domestic beasts to tame but once you get them to work right then there is no going back to regular loudspeakers.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[Rajiv]

An elderly audiophile friend in Calcutta uses his aged 15" Gold that he brought from UK in the '60s with Sun Audio 300B Push-Pull monoblocks with Tamura Transformers & inter-stage transformers. --> SV-300B MKII
Tubes being either Kron KR300 BXLS OR Western Electric OR JJ - depending on mood!
Source strictly only vinyl on Thorens TD-226 with dual tonearms.

Hi,

Audio- Engr,that system must sound amazing.

I would love to listen to this set up and the other with the field coil Klangfilm speakers.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[Rajiv]

On the other end corner of the same room, is his other Reference - sitting on a 2" high carpeted wooden podium, A 9-ft Baldwin Concert Grand Piano SD10.

Hi,

Is your friend Mr.Rusi Modi by any chance?

again +1 to that!
Rajiv : Hats-off to you with your depth of understanding of these vintage stuff to this level..... Just wonderful !!

Thank you,I am but a novice in these matters compared to you.

That audiophile is using 350-380 litres cabinets. Placement is practically 2 corners of his lush Living Room of size 22 ft wide x 30 ft long with 16 ft ceilings.

The word among the Tannoy folks is that 15 inch Monitor Golds in corner loaded 300 ltr cabs with an EBS alignment sound better than the Westminister Royals.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[hemantwaghe]

You should have kept the 12 inch Monitor Gold for yourself.
se

No ,they were not mine

A guy outside mumbai happened to interact with me on net when I was selling my Nad....a dealer friend of mine had these so I just passed the info.The price was out of my budget! I think the dealer have 2 15 Inch drivers too.

Also I got a call month back reg british LEAK sandwitch speakers rated @ 15 Ohms... in OK condition....now I read about them on net , they were made for tubes,but any use today???

 

[Hiten]

Sorry could not post yesterday due to holiday.
@ Cranky
One more Question...
- Does large Fullrangers mean good fq. response specially for lower range?
Sorry one more...
- Since fullrangers have difficulty with lower fq. range will an amp which are known to put more emphasis on lows compliment them ?

@ George

have had 2 ways for many years until the single driver bug finally bit and I built a Fosext based system.

I agree, minimalist approach is what I like. Full rangers, Gainclones etc. There is some cleverness involved in designing this and is exciting. Thanks for info on subs.

@Stevie

aha hiten, fingers itching to get something going eh? all the best! single drivers do sound good lets see how you like them

Yes, learning and working out on things which I hope would be within my budget.

@ Keith
Thanks for those links.

Thanks a lot everyone

 

[spirovious]

The joke is sat are to said to be fullrange by many spk manufacturer where they meen they can accept all freq ,but doubt if they can actually reproduce them.

 

[gobble]

The joke is sat are to said to be fullrange by many spk manufacturer where they meen they can accept all freq ,but doubt if they can actually reproduce them.

Good one.

Hiten,

And to all skeptics who believe FRs cannot reproduce low freqs well - just come and listen to my speakers. It will simply disintegrate this notion in your head and you will never repeat this again. Thats a promise. I am talking about low freqs good enough for musical reproduction not the movie spl effects that hit 20hz which you will never miss when enjoying music.

With the extended frequency range of my new preamp, at below 9OClock position I can feel reverbs through my fingers not just with kanjeera and other percussion but also with vocalists that go low low down (T.V Gopalakrishnan )

If a 6.5" FR cannot do this ( I haven't heard a 5" FR so cant comment), you should ignore all the "audiophile" boasts and mumbo jumbo about the complexity and his "superior cabinet design" that the speaker cabinet maker will throw at you and assume his project is really a failure (matter-of-factly).

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I am "eating" it everyday

Regards

 

[GeorgeO]

Yes indeed. Everyone who has their version of nirvana thinks that theirs is the only way there! As Mao or Deng said, there's more than one way to skin a cat or did he say black or white the cat must catch rats?

Anyway, IMHO the key to it is how one personally enjoys sound, and the route one takes to reach that holy grail.

Cheers

George



>The problem with sound is that it's very subjective. I've had opportunities to hear setups that are completely rolled off beyond 10KHz with no air and sparkle, as well as those with no baffle step compensation (and irritatingly honky as a result), some with absolutely zero bass extension and systems with no definition after about 1KHz - and in all cases the owners/interested parties claim to have the best system under the sun. The best systems are neutral, with low distortion and smooth and even response across the spectrum and listening area. It is not a mean task to achieve, and that is why there are so few of them [/QUOTE]

 

[gobble]

Anyway, IMHO the key to it is how one personally enjoys sound, and the route one takes to reach that holy grail.

Cheers

George

Spot on! If ones setup shakes him or her up and excites the listener/owner then the search is over ... it is futile to look at "scientific" data like frequency spectrum graphs and point out "deficiencies" and try and convince it is not the ideal setup for the owner or that he needs a new pair of speakers ...

For example you've heard my speakers and rightly pointed out the high frequencies do not match a 2 way setup. But I already anticipated this before making the choice and dont miss it at all. Yes the treble definition was poor without a good preamp earlier, but I am happy with what is now and intend to add a super tweeter simply as an audiophile hobby thing later not because the setup feels "incomplete" ...



Cheers

 

[rams1977]

... The best systems are neutral, with low distortion and smooth and even response across the spectrum and listening area. It is not a mean task to achieve, and that is why there are so few of them

Yeah, this is what we are afte right? the 'Holy Grail' so to say.