Fulton Length Wires

[drlowmu]

The classic version of my amp, monoblock pair, sings daily in my setup. CLCRC B plus.

Second set parts are mostly sourced. Low DCR Power Transformer. Separate filament transformer. I wont deviate from the basic topology of my amp except the B+ part. It uses Philips 1561 rectifier tube, one each mono block.

I am awaiting chokes. My chap is hand wounding them for me. The value I would have in hand would be 1H, 130mA and minimum DCR he can manage. (chokes in current amp measure 70 ohms and new ones would be way less)

The beefy OPT has a DCR of 136 ohms for the 0-5K Primary tap and it compares favorably to the Hashimoto 507S which reads 130 ohms. R cores may measure lower but I don't have any. (All my future builds will have made in India OPT, as the chap is doing a great job at winding)

I will measure DCR of all the components once I have full set in hand and share. Yes, I intend to use low value capacitors, MKP. Currently I have under 10uf in hand but may need little higher values. Will share these too.

The amp is F2A SE, no feedback, no its NOT a DC amp but a classic simplified version of Siemens/Klangfilm. EF12 at driver stage, 1561 tube rectified, F2a at power stage, triode strapped. My objective is to build exactly same second set but with lowest possible DCR components on the B + supply and compare both sets. This one will have LCLC B plus as you suggested, using lowest DCR chokes.

Yes, I am in contact with Hari for any queries I may have.

Will skim through your above posts again, if I have missed anything

 

[drlowmu]

Thanks for the details. We need to better coordinate . WE need to find out what the power supply should be, VAC and VDC -wise in PSUD, first, with your "existing" Power Transformer.

Can you tell me what the DCR is of the primary, and the VAC of 1/2 the high voltage secondary is, with no load, just plugged in at 230 VAC line, or whatever is close to your average line voltage? Also : What VDC do you need at C2, and what is each mono amp's idling current??

I am quite sure it is extremely premature and not a good idea for you to be specifying a choke to wind !!

The Power XFR you may really need, is possibly not be the one you have ! I don't know. Nor do you. PSUD is needed. Shilchar, fortunately, is inexpensive for 320 VA R-Core Power Transformers. Similarly, they could clone 159ZAs easily, cheaply. Ask Hari.

Thank you for doing L1/C1/L2/C2 !! Very good topology in practice.

You state :

" The value I would have in hand would be 1H, 130mA and minimum DCR he can manage. (chokes in current amp measure 70 ohms and new ones would be way less) ".

Sadly, this is likely just not going to work. Sorry. Let me show you what we have used from 1989, to 2022.

The Stancor C-2708 was rated at 0.32 HY at 600 mA. ( not 130 mA. ), and 10 Ohms DCR.

Ten Ohms DCR Stancors, as I reported in Post #6 of the 2021 6005 build thread, initially used, did NOT sonically cut the mustard, as was it reported - BORING for me to hear .

Any choke designed for 130 mA. ( which I assume is your load, plus some overhead ) will most likely not work well in a C1 position. Why ?? PSUD it, ......current spikes will cause it to BUZZ and be saturated continuously.

The Hammond 159ZA is rated at about 0.30 HY, at 1 AMPERE, and is 6 Ohms DCR.

It is THE proper off-the-shelf inductor to use, two in series. WHY? because with a 1 A. rating, all of the non - critical inductance current spikes, simulated in PSUD, will be well within the inductor's continuous 1 A. current rating. Also, 6 Ohms Yogibear sounds the best, music-timing-wise, in that entire Hammond series. This is what Dennis, myself, and Hari Iyer presently use in our reference amps.

The 1 HY rating you quote is not needed nor wanted. WHY ? It will be too high in DCR, too large in size, too large in weight, to get it to have 6 ohms of DCR. Six ohms is paramount, four Ohms would be superb,...... wind and send me four !!! Seriously, Yogibear, have your winder or Shilchar COPY four 159ZAs .

Here is the key Hammond published data :

https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/choke/153-159.pdf

You can deduce core / lamination size and note overall weight, with their published data. Leads are best as 12 AWG m22759/11 single wires. I can send you some m22759/11 wire, if necessary, or, there is APEX JR.

Can you send me the data typed above in bold, second sentence, and we can try to get some PSUD simulations done ?

Yogibear, I made the mistake of suggesting too marginal of an L1 and L2 inductor in about 2006, on Audio Asylum Forum., and the DIYers generally failed . I didn't hear the end of that !! Made enemies inadvertently. Never do I seek to have that happen again. Stay in contact please. I hope this post helps people, now or in the future. .

Best wishes,

Jeff

 

[drlowmu]

Power transformers, not a problem as I have a few choices. B plus is targeted at 350 to 380 volts. I will share chokes specs to my winder and see if he can wind a pair or two.

Will share details you asked for power transformer.

The DCR of the Power XFRs is not anywheres near as critical as the Ls' DCR !!! Reread my post as I continuously edited it until I was somewhat pleased . Time to go to bed, almost 2 AM . Total mono amp current load ???

Jeff

 

[drlowmu]

very interesting bit of Arcania. but if it were a more secularly heard difference, it would have found its way into other equipment in the 45 years since its discovery. More likely a more select group only can hear the difference.

I just love @Hari Iyer 's ability to pull out such interesting yet arcane stuff. always entertaining, and sometimes informative

I have only found one person, in the last 42 years, who had a system good enough to confirm the 57 1/8th inch length as being subjectively ideal. The original determination was done objectively in a well equipped Lab by Mr. Fulton. He had a Radar and Amplifier studies background, during WW 2.

Jeff

The DCR of the Power XFRs is not anywheres near as critical as the Ls' DCR !!! Reread my post as I continuously edited it until I was somewhat pleased . Time to go to bed, almost 2 AM . Total mono amp current load ???

Jeff

The Power Transformer is actively excited, whereas the two supply chokes are passively driven.

Jeff

 

[drlowmu]

Jeff, awaiting some news from my winder. He is good at tube amps too. He had been telling me for long to replace 1561 with 5U4G. I think it’s time to take this step.

Will take up from there including all other details you asked for once I have some news about the new chokes.

Sounds good. Start with one 5U4GB ( E.H. is a favorite, after 75 hours plus of break in ). Put a second tube socket hole in the new chassis topside, so you can experimentally hear two. Some of the greatest sounding power amps in vintage audio, used double 5U4Gs.

( That is all my Mentor and I will now use, since mid 2019, two E.H. 5U4GBs. Hari Iyer's KT88 monoblocks - are the same. )

The very best sounding McIntosh tube amp, of their vintage tube amp line up, is their Mac-60 monoblocks, it uses two 5U4Gs.

The ALTEC 345A, a lower priced consumer amp also ATE all the popular vintage amps, and it used two 5U4G rectifiers.

Jeff

 

[RtoR King]

RE: Fulton, Halijak, et al.

If Fulton did all this scientific research with animals and audio systems, where is the official documentation of that work? Research work of that caliber is most often documented in relevant technical journals and peer reviewed.

All we seem to have here are post copies from other hobbyist forums and in the sole interest of promoting theories that go against long published and established findings.

If we are to accept these gentleman as legitimate research scientists, we're going to need to see some accredited documentation of their work.

 

[drlowmu]

RE: Fulton, Halijak, et al.

If Fulton did all this scientific research with animals and audio systems, where is the official documentation of that work? Research work of that caliber is most often documented in relevant technical journals and peer reviewed.

All we seem to have here are post copies from other hobbyist forums and in the sole interest of promoting theories that go against long published and established findings.

If we are to accept these gentleman as legitimate research scientists, we're going to need to see some accredited documentation of their work.

LOL. How silly IMHO.

Put some effort into what you are trolling me about today !!!

Your post was a perfect example of why SOME ( not all ) EEs and others, can never get ahead in audio, and are doomed to mediocre audio systems in their homes. Audio implementation, like music itself, is not purely EE or Science, it is also an ART !!

When you mention Dean Charles E. Halijak , simply go on line and see his esoteric and fascinating published papers. He helped the USA put the first monkey into space flight, etc etc etc. Brilliant E.E. and ultra cool audiophile. He would not let an E.E. pass his course, until they analyzed and wrote a paper on all that was wrong - design - wise, with the Marantz Model Nine monoblock.

Robert W. Fulton, was a musician and audio consultant, ( and not a research scientist ),. No official documentation is ever needed, wanted, it does not exist.

When you publish something, everyone and his Uncle can easily compete with you.

Robert gave seminars, across the USA for several years then, discussing all of this, so people will know. I put-on one with Robert for Los Angeles, just the two of us, at the Sutro Auditorium, 5900 Wilshire Blvd. Over 150 people attended. I don't recall about Arnie being there, but my audio friend Bascom King sure attended.

Robert W. Fulton singularly started the " wire for audio " business in my lifetime. He was the very first person in my lifetime to do so. Maybe this was all before your time, .... fine.

I do not really care what you, or any others, need ( documentation - wise ) to have to accept honestly - posted information.

This justification is your problem, for now - certainly your loss, not mine !!

If you, or any one else, doesn't like my posts, does not believe me, needs documentation other than my written word in public, please do not read or follow me. Thankfully, the performance of my amps, justify me. What justifies you in audio ??

I don't seek to waste limited time - with people who doubt me. I do NOT write in your behalf.

Stop your unwanted trolling please. This is an audio forum, the DIY division. We are trying to have FUN in our wonderful hobby. I usually do. Thank you.

Jeff

 

[RtoR King]

You posted about a unique and rather interesting study with audio and animals from some university. These areas of research are typically formally documented to rigid scientific standards.

I don't think it's too much to ask to further study this? You seem to know all about it, I would think you could point those who are interested in the right direction. A cursory Google search brings up nothing about this as it relates to Robert Fulton. Of course aside from your posts of this on various audio forums.

And you need to stop these relentless statements where people you disagree with have inferior audio systems. Unless these people post the makeup of their systems, you have no idea of the relevant quality and performance.

As for Mr. Halijak, yes there are some impressive papers by him. In fact as an IEEE member, I will read a few of these myself. But these subjects represent rather advanced electrical engineering concepts. This doesn't strike me as someone who would bother with a consumer HiFi audio amplifier as subject material. And I don't see any evidence of that in the papers below either.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/author/37705999300

 

[drlowmu]

University of Minnesota. Robert W. Fulton's home town.

Dr. Charles Halijak was an audiophile. read my post above more carefully.

Dr. Halijak also HATED the design of a Marantz Model Nine power amplifier, and he would require his EE students to write a paper, on what was wrong with the amp. He would require the EE students to offer suggestions on how it could be better designed.

It was really a pleasure to interact with him. He was a nice person.

My very favorite sentence from him, was in his " Figure Of Merit of a Power Supply " letter to me of 1989. Imagine the DEAN of the College of E.E., of The University of Alabama in Huntsville *, writing the following words to me :


" *. Most tube and transistor electronic engineers are unconscious about power supplies, but good. "


Jeff


* Please NOTE : I had previously incorrectly stated that Dr. Halijak was associated with the University of South Carolina. That was in error. Charles lived in Huntsville, Alabama, and he and The University of Alabama in Huntsville, his employer, did much work with N.A.S.A. back then.

 

[Dr.Gary]

Not quite.

You have to start with healthy baboons, not sick ones.

You do not play music, but rather, 20 kHz test tones, and study how they react. Press a button at feeding time and get food.

Next, increase the test frequency to 60 kHz. The baboons, well tested and documented previously, will become confused and sick.

As a consultant, you will visit the University Lab with electronic measuring equipment. You will see a nice 60 kHZ signal at the output terminals of the tube amplifier. You will also see an almost perfect signal level at the speaker's terminals, some 25 feet away. Maybe down 0.2 dB. No big deal. BUT, when you check phase, at both ends of your 30 foot speaker leads, you will see that it has shifted about sixty degrees, through the speaker wire at the speaker's end, when at 60 kHz.

Your job, as the consultant, is to figure out how to engineer a set of speaker leads, that does not shift phase 60 degrees at 60 kHz. Simple requirement.

Mr. Fulton had a radar and amplifier design background, and he applied himself uniquely in his Lab to solve the speaker wire problem. Mid 1970s. No one else had ever done that in a Lab before then, and seemingly since.

I have nicely had two gifted people as audio mentors. My second audio mentor, Dennis, subjectively confirmed Fulton lengths in 2020 on his excellent audio system. I do not ignore either of these two gifted audio people.

Do you grasp this a bit better?? You should do as you wish. I am only the messenger. Don't shoot me.

Jeff

You must be mistaken about the specifics because the numbers that you cite are inconsistent with well-established principles in physics, engineering and mathematics that govern and describe the attenuation and phase shift associated with a 30-foot length of standard zip cord that is connected between an amplifier and a tweeter. Specifically, the zip cord and the tweeter constitute a first-order, minimum-phase L/R low-pass filter. Because the filter is minimum phase, its attenuation and phase characteristics are not independent. Consequently, it is possible to calculate the phase shift from the attenuation and vice versa with a high degree of accuracy. And that leads to the fact, which can be easily confirmed by direct measurement, that it is impossible for a 25-foot length of zip cord that connects a tweeter to an amplifier to have 0.2dB of attenuation and sixty degrees of phase shift at 60kHz.

You posted about a unique and rather interesting study with audio and animals from some university. These areas of research are typically formally documented to rigid scientific standards.

I don't think it's too much to ask to further study this? You seem to know all about it, I would think you could point those who are interested in the right direction. A cursory Google search brings up nothing about this as it relates to Robert Fulton. Of course aside from your posts of this on various audio forums.

And you need to stop these relentless statements where people you disagree with have inferior audio systems. Unless these people post the makeup of their systems, you have no idea of the relevant quality and performance.

As for Mr. Halijak, yes there are some impressive papers by him. In fact as an IEEE member, I will read a few of these myself. But these subjects represent rather advanced electrical engineering concepts. This doesn't strike me as someone who would bother with a consumer HiFi audio amplifier as subject material. And I don't see any evidence of that in the papers below either.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/author/37705999300

Your comment about the formal documentation of research involving animals is spot on. Even if Fulton desired to keep his alleged discovery of the cause of the alleged massive amount of phase shift in commonly-used 18ga speaker wire a secret, the need for and use of special speaker wire would almost certainly have been required to be included in the materials and methods section of any article that was peer-reviewed and approved for publication. It is therefore both perplexing and noteworthy that no published research involving baboons, which describes this particular phase shift problem and its associated Fulton-discovered solution, has ever been identified. Additionally, at this point, which is 45 years after the fact, the story that is being told amounts to little more than hearsay. And that fact naturally leads one to wonder if there is any truth at all to the Fulton baboon story, or if it is a total fabrication. In order to find out, there are two rational approaches that one can utilize. One approach is to assess the validity of what the story claims on the basis of the physics and mathematics that describe the phase shift that exists in a cable that connects a speaker to an amplifier. Unfortunately, that approach runs into an immediate brick wall because the claims of 0.2dB of attenuation and a sixty degree phase shift at 60kHz for a 25-foot length of 18ga zip cord are a theoretical impossibility. That leaves only one other approach which is to make direct measurements of the phase shift that exists in 18ga zip cord vs the phase shift that exists in a Fulton speaker cable that, according to the story, was developed to eliminate the excessive phase shift and prevent the baboons from getting sick. The results of measurements that I have just made on a 28-foot length of 18ga zip cord show that the phase shift between the amplifier and a 7.5-ohm load amounts to 20 degrees at 60kHz. And now for the unexpected result which is that the phase shift for a 28-foot length of Fulton Gold speaker cable is also 20 degrees, EXACTLY the same. While initially surprising, this is in fact the expected theoretical outcome because for any specific load the phase shift is determined by the inductance of the cable, and it turns out that the published inductance per foot of 18ga zip cord is exactly the same as the published inductance per foot of Fulton Gold speaker cable.