Good Stereo System

Wharfedale Diamond 12 Series

madhujith

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Hi All,

I'm very new to this forum and request help from all the experts here to get a stereo system for my home. I have a Samsung LCD and a Sonodyne 5.1 Genie system (Have monster cables for the front 2 speakers), but not entirely convinced with the quality of stereo output- specially the depth of sound. I listen to a lot different music, with instrumental dominating a lot (say Yanni, Kenny G etc, also Old Rock like Eagles, Pink Floyd etc).

I like a balanced output with good depth. My budget is around Rs. 1 lac (+ or - 15000 is fine).

Can you please sugget- A 2 channel amplifier+ Speaker system.

Thanks,
Madhu
 

gopi

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Madhu,
Add one more important component - the CD player. You should be having a DVD player, but for a good stereo playback a CD player or a very high end universal player needs to be used typically.
Decide if you can buy second hand items - this will widely open up and constrain your options :)
Next would be to decide if you need a floorstander or a bookshelf. This is one crucial decision because the bass extension provided by the floorstander might simply be mandatory for some and not for other. Given that you are used to Genie 5.1 I would say you might prefer a floorstander. Best thing is to walk to a nearby dealer and check any floorstander or bookshelf to get the basic idea.
For a given price the rest of the spectrum (except for the bass extension) will typically be better for a bookshelf than a floorstander.
A floorstander in this budget might slightly be tough if new.
My suggestion would be:
Marantz CD6002/Cambridge Audio 640C v2 - 25k
or alternatively make your DVD player better and play mp3's from computer
through Cambridge Audio Dacmagic
Marantz PM6002/NAD C325bee - 25k
(if floorstander you might need more power than above)
Speaker Options:
bookshelves: Monitor Audio RS1, Dynaudio Audience 52, Usher S520, Usher X718, Dali Ikon 2,
Floorstanders: Monitor Audio RS6, Dali Ikon 6, Usher V602
Since, you are in Bangalore drop into arn systems and they have some nice deals going on right now:
http://www.hifivision.com/special-offers/2958-xmas-new-year-specials-arn-systems-soon-2.html
 
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dinyaar

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Hi All,

I'm very new to this forum and request help from all the experts here to get a stereo system for my home. I have a Samsung LCD and a Sonodyne 5.1 Genie system (Have monster cables for the front 2 speakers), but not entirely convinced with the quality of stereo output- specially the depth of sound. I listen to a lot different music, with instrumental dominating a lot (say Yanni, Kenny G etc, also Old Rock like Eagles, Pink Floyd etc).

I like a balanced output with good depth. My budget is around Rs. 1 lac (+ or - 15000 is fine).

Can you please sugget- A 2 channel amplifier+ Speaker system.

Thanks,
Madhu


Hi Madhu,
Basically a cdp+integrated amp + SM speaker for about a lac plus/minus a bit.

Start by hearing a few speakers like Monitor Audio, B&W, Dynaudio,Dali to name a few. Choose the sound that appeals to u. Unless u crave deep bass or have a large room to fill a stand mount in this budget will out perform a floor stander.
Once the speaker is decided go for electronics from Arcam, marantz.

Unless u have exceeded the budget keep about 10K for a decent interconnect and speaker cables and about 7/8 K for speaker stands. So in theory restrict ur component purchase to about 1L so it reaches ur expanded allocation of 1.15 in all.

Rgds
 
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srramanujam

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Dear Madhu,

I am looking at a system more or less close to your budget (a bit less actually). You might want to see the suggestions that have come in the following thread.

http://www.hifivision.com/what-should-i-buy/2705-options-2-channel-system-around-60k-music.html

The budget has now gone to close to 1 lac now.

So far, i have heard KEF IQ5, Morduant Short Mezzo2 and B & W 685. I found the KEF IQ5 powerful, but weak in vocals. Both Mezzo 2 and B & W sounded good. I am planning to check Dali Ikon 2, Monitor Audio BR2 and Monitor Audio RS1. Among the amps the suggestions that the forum provides are among Marantz, CA and NAD. All of them have atleast two models that would fit among your budget.

I will keep reading this post since it could be helpful in my decision as well.
 
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madhujith

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Thanks for the response. Casually I went into a showroom here close to my office tat sells Acoustic Energy. The guy said 2 floor standing+Amp+CD player is for Rs 1,15,000...what do you guys think...I found the sound good...meaning definitely more depth than my satellite Sonodyne. Also help me clarify...I was told by a friend of mine that bookshelves don't give that good depth...is that true. Also I have a Panasonic music system, which has 2 speakers, not bad, but not great either, because of their thumping bass. Any odea if I could use them or is it best to sell them off?
 
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Asit

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Hi madhujith,
Let me put in my two cents.

1. Let me also first recommend bookshelf speakers. For the price (say up to 40K or so) the available good bookshelf speakers would any day beat floorstanding speakers, unless you are ready to sort of double the allocation on speakers.

2. You should allocate the maximum amount of money for speakers. I do not see any point spending money on amp and source (CDP, turntable or tape deck) unless you have good speakers.

3. Because of the choice on the amps being restricted by the budget constraints, I think you should look for bookshelf speakers with a good efficiency and not-low nominal impedence. If you can choose such speakers, then you will have a better freedom of choosing your integrated stereo amplifier.

4. There are a number of good bookshelf speakers mentioned above. I would also like to include Epos 12i (about 40K, nominal impedence 8 ohm, sensitivity 87 dB). People who are better informed than I am can tell how easily drivable are they. But when driven properly, they sure produce excellent sound for a great variety of music. The Dali Ikon 2 may be out of your range (just above 50K, I think), but they are excellent. Basically you have to go around and audition and see what you like best for all your choices of music.

5. Next you consider the amp to go with your bookshelf speakers because the amps and the speakers should be considered as a pair (although in terms of expenditure, for the given budget I would spend more money on the source (CDP) than the amp. This is a philosophy to maximize the performance for a given budget. One can always go for upgrades later on.

6. Now about the choices on the amp and CDP. Dinyaar has suggested Arcam and Marantz. I have recently auditioned entry level Marantz CD player and heard reviews on entry level amps (upto 7001) and my impression is that while they produce very civilized and refined and warm sound, they are not very detailed and as a result they were not that involving for me. On the other hand whatever little I have heard from Arcam was very much to my liking. They have a very clean kind of sound, dynamism is good, and at the same time very measured. I found their sound much better than the entry level separates. However all this comes at a price. Their current lowest priced amplifier is called FMJ A18 and the Indian price would be around 40K. It's a model just released, and there are still no magazine reviews on it, but I have heard some user reviews and they were very good. I have also read the results of a German testing which was also good.
However, they are only 50 watts per channel at 8 Ohms. This is more than adequate power for me but I do not know about you. If you want a bit of refinement in your amp, at these prices it may not be possible to get more power than 50 watts rms per channel. But that is usually enough, provided your speakers are properly matched (as mentioned above in item 3).

7. At around 30K I think the NAD amps are very good because of their dynamic capabilities even into difficult speakers although they are not as refined and precise as the Arcams (in my opinion) (I hope experts agree with me here). But I still like them because of their musicality and appreciation of dynamic ups and lows of music. For the price I would tend to ignore their imperfections and enjoy the music they deliver. You can take a look at C325BEE (50 watts at just less than 25K), C352 (80 watts, old model, still available with dealers I think, really worth the money) and the new C355BEE (this new replacement of the 352 may be a bit pricier than the 352).

8. For the CD player you can use your DVD player for transport and draw a good quality digital coaxial cable from the DVD player's coax-out into a DAC (digital to analog converter). The Cambridge Audio DACmagic is going to be a available in India soon (or is it already available?) and at 25K I think this is going to be by far the best solution for you.
The DAC will come to use for your computer-music also (please do not use a lossy format for your computer music).

9. Of course the above is only a suggestion. You have to first make some kind of a shortlist and then audition them all and then only go for the purchase. Please do not be in a hurry. Take your time and decide.

10. I would suggest you to wait for the speaker stands. If you really go for the Dali Ikon 2 (or the Epos M12i) + Arcam FMJ A18 + CA DACmagic + Decent interconnects and speaker cables, you will spend all of your budget. Put speakers on stools or tables for the first month or a couple. Then whenever your budget permits, buy good quality stable and heavy speakerstands. The reason I am saying this is that a good pair of spearstands is an integral part of producing good sound. In order for meeting your budget, please do not end up buying some poor quality lightweight and unstable (that is undamping) speaker stands. Putting them on stools for a few months initially is a better option.

Boy, I am tired after all that typing at the end of the day!

Note added later: I would let others comment on the Acoustic Energy system you mentioned above.
 
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neo

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@ madhujith & srramanujam.

Hello! I would suggest you guys to take time out & listen to diff combos before making up your mind & do not buy unless you are certain of your choice.
I know the process is tedious. Ive noticed seldom that people buying their first real hifi at times mature very fast & get dissatisfied with their set up. As most of them will get in to the analytical mode while listening to music & the shortfalls start becoming obvious. Also since most of them step up form a normal hi fi they are most likely to like a whole lot of stuff & are unable to narrow down on the best solution.
Youll def have to make some compromises but I guess being patient will help you narrow down to your set up even better, unless of course you wouldnt mind to upgrade in short time.
All the best
Cheers.
 
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srramanujam

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Pretty much following that path. I have been reading up for close to three months now, before i ventured out for the first audition.

I think it is going to take me atleast another months before i zero in on the speakers. Hopefully, the rest of the decisions will be a little faster as i am toying between only three combos for the CDP-AMP.
 
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madhujith

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Hi srramanujam,

Can you please let me know what config you are looking at and what have you zeroed in on....what is the maximum budget that you are looking at??

Also, as I was doing my share of reading came across these 2 interesting Indian companies- Cadence and Lithos...anyone who can share some light on these, they seem good from their website.

Madhu
 
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srramanujam

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The choices that i am looking at will fall into two budgets, essentially because of the difference in speaker prices.

a) at around 80,000 - based on MA BR2, CA or Marantz CDP + AMP, keeping some money for cables, stands

b) at around 1.1 lakhs - with Dali Ikon 2 or MA RS1 or RS6 speakers. Same CDP + AMP choices as above.

I have summarised my experience so far in the thread that is linked earlier.

Next round of exploration is this weekend. I may have more to say after that.
 
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spirovious

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Madhu,
Add one more important component - the CD player. You should be having a DVD player, but for a good stereo playback a CD player or a very high end universal player needs to be used typically.
Decide if you can buy second hand items - this will widely open up and constrain your options :)
Next would be to decide if you need a floorstander or a bookshelf. This is one crucial decision because the bass extension provided by the floorstander might simply be mandatory for some and not for other. Given that you are used to Genie 5.1 I would say you might prefer a floorstander. Best thing is to walk to a nearby dealer and check any floorstander or bookshelf to get the basic idea.
For a given price the rest of the spectrum (except for the bass extension) will typically be better for a bookshelf than a floorstander.
A floorstander in this budget might slightly be tough if new.
My suggestion would be:
Marantz CD6002/Cambridge Audio 640C v2 - 25k
or alternatively make your DVD player better and play mp3's from computer
through Cambridge Audio Dacmagic
Marantz PM6002/NAD C325bee - 25k
(if floorstander you might need more power than above)
Speaker Options:
bookshelves: Monitor Audio RS1, Dynaudio Audience 52, Usher S520, Usher X718, Dali Ikon 2,
Floorstanders: Monitor Audio RS6, Dali Ikon 6, Usher V602
Since, you are in Bangalore drop into arn systems and they have some nice deals going on right now:
http://www.hifivision.com/special-offers/2958-xmas-new-year-specials-arn-systems-soon-2.html

Thanks,

I wld like to know whether Marantz CD6002 can play WAV too?
Secondly where is DAC magic available in India?

Which will be better buy between two?why?
1.Marantz CD 6002
2.universal budget DVDp + DAC magic
 
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gopi

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Not many would have heard a Dacmagic here. Infact the suppliies are so short even in UK. Not avaialable in the rest of the world as of now. I have listened to CA 640C and Marantz 5001. I prefered 640. People say Dacmagic sounds similar to 640 or slightly better. 6002 is said to be sounding better than 640. What does all this mean is that they will be not to much away from each other. Slight difference in sound mostly. So, the important factor between the two is the list of features. For me, given that there are music at my laptop and I have an Airport Express, Dacmagic is simply the easiest choice. But, if you are not going to use the system for anything else other than CD playback, then probably Marantz is better as you need a seperate DVD player for Cambridge. Also, the DVD player used as transport does affect sound. So, a very cheap design with lots of jitter will not be a good choice.
 
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Asit

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A Question on Jitter

Not many would have heard a Dacmagic here. Infact the suppliies are so short even in UK. Not avaialable in the rest of the world as of now. I have listened to CA 640C and Marantz 5001. I prefered 640. People say Dacmagic sounds similar to 640 or slightly better. 6002 is said to be sounding better than 640. What does all this mean is that they will be not to much away from each other. Slight difference in sound mostly. So, the important factor between the two is the list of features. For me, given that there are music at my laptop and I have an Airport Express, Dacmagic is simply the easiest choice. But, if you are not going to use the system for anything else other than CD playback, then probably Marantz is better as you need a seperate DVD player for Cambridge. Also, the DVD player used as transport does affect sound. So, a very cheap design with lots of jitter will not be a good choice.

Hi Gopi,
I have recently auditioned both the CA azur 640c v2 and Marantz 6002 quite extensively. I really did not like the CA 640c v2 even though it reportedly has won many awards. The Marantz 6002 was definitely significantly better. Since their prices are very similar, between the two I would go with the 6002 with my eyes closed. I ultimately ended up buying CA azur 740c which sounded much better than these two, but also at about double the price.

My question to you is why do you think the dacmagic should be about the same quality as the 640c v2. They should be around the same price which is quite a lot for a DAC. I thought the dacmagic with a reasonable transport is supposed to be significantly better than the 640c v2 from the specifications, magazine and whatever user reviews available (I usually value the user reviews in a good forum better than the magazine reviews, because for obvious reasons the magazines may often be biased, I think).

My next question is about jitter. Theoretically I think it is some kind of error contributed by a bad transport in reading the discrete data stream. Is that correct? From the two reasoanbly good CD players I have owned (the CA 740c bought this year and a very good Denon DCD 920 CDP bought in 1989, had another even before that) I have not been able to detect any effects of a jitter. Can you tell me what I have to look for so that I can detect it?

Strangely I also do have a DVDP (Sony DVP-NS708H) which by today's standards a very low-end DVD. I have hooked up this DVDP with the 740c by a digital coax cable (the 740c can act as a DAC and has 2 pairs of optical and coax inputs). Sometimes I have tried the DVDP as a transport for my CDs and have used the 740c as DAC. This way the audio quality is not quite the same, but still very very good. The details of the audio is still there, the most prominent effect I hear is a minor shift in strength towards the treble region and as result the sound is slightly brighter. The soundstage and imaging remain more or less the same. However, I again do not observe any jitter.

That prompts me to ask all of you: Am I looking for something that is very hard to observe? In that case why should we worry about it? Or is it just my ignorance or inability to detect it or my system is good enough not to demonstrate it?

Gopi, or anybody else, please explain, because although I have been listening to stereo music with separates from the mid 1980s, all I really cared for was good sound within my very limited budget and never bothered about these technical discussions, but recently the net is filled with all kinds of technical discussions, the word "jitter" is sprinked quite generously in all technical reviews of a CDP, and I and many others I suppose are starting to have some kind of inferiority complex because we do not understand what these people are talking about.
 
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venkatcr

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asit said:
My question to you is why do you think the dacmagic should be about the same quality as the 640c v2. They should be around the same price which is quite a lot for a DAC. I thought the dacmagic with a reasonable transport is supposed to be significantly better than the 640c v2 from the specifications, magazine and whatever user reviews available (I usually value the user reviews in a good forum better than the magazine reviews, because for obvious reasons the magazines may often be biased, I think).

The DACMagic has DAC processing more at the level of 740C not the 640C. Though all three use the Wolfson WM8740 DAC chips, the 740C and the DACMagic have more refined upsampling and filtering methodologies in place.

asit said:
My next question is about jitter. Theoretically I think it is some kind of error contributed by a bad transport in reading the discrete data stream. Is that correct? From the two reasonably good CD players I have owned (the CA 740c bought this year and a very good Denon DCD 920 CDP bought in 1989, had another even before that) I have not been able to detect any effects of a jitter. Can you tell me what I have to look for so that I can detect it?

Do you remember the old days when the record player use to skip, or the tape player would play at a slower speed? These were the worst nightmares of a vinyl system or a tape player.

Digital storage and transmission of data do not have these issues, but have a slightly different problem. A digital data has a finite quantum of information that is exact in nature. This information is read by, say, a CD Player, and sent to an amplifier in digital form. The amplifier reads the digital data, converts it into analogue form, amplifies it, and plays it on our speakers for our ears to understand.

Now how do you send digital data from one end to another of this chain? Using electrical current which are called carrier waves. Now the carrier waves by themselves are useless. So you add the digital data as 'modulations' to the carrier waves. In other words, the carrier wave is modified to represent the data we want it to carry. Modulation is the process of varying some characteristic of a carrier wave with an external signal. The carrier waves are generally electrical current in physically connected devices, or radio waves for devices that are far away from each other. In both these cases, the basic characteristics (amplitude, frequency, or phase) of the carrier signal are varied in accordance with the information bearing signal.

Now take the first case - of a CDP reading the data from the media. If the data in the CD and the one that is read is different even by a tiny amount, we have what is called 'jitter'. This difference could be just a few bits, but in the highly accurate digital system, this is supposed to be enormous. Now let us assume that the CDP has read with 100% accuracy. It sends the data to the amplifier through a carrier wave. Has it reached across with the same 100% accuracy? If not we again have jitter.

Jitter is, thus, any variation or dislocation in the pulses of a digital transmission. The usual causes include connection timeouts, connection time lags, data traffic congestion, and external interference.

The key to understanding jitter vis-a-vis digital transmission is precision, or acuracy of data. As digital information is sent out in small packets, if jitter occurs, synchronization becomes a problem and the receiving unit finds it difficult to correctly assemble the incoming data stream. Jitter can occur in both transmitting and receiving ends.

Generally to avoid jitter, devices use a localised buffer. Here the incoming signals are assembled before being used. This also gives the receiving station time to ensure that the data is accurate before it uses it.

Advanced CDPs read the same data packets multiple times and compare the copies or what are called 'samples'. If there is large amounts of similarity, it is happy. Else it will read it again. If needed, it reassembles the data from the samples to create the correct data stream.

In computer transmission, when the data is transmitted from one end to another, the carrier wave carries a checksum which allows the receiver to calculate the accuracy of the data received. If not, the receiver instructs the transmitter to resend the data. In audio and video, as they are in real time, this is not possible. Unless there is complete loss in signal, the receiver can use advanced mathematics to interpolate and guess the missing data.

Now what we are talking about is a loss or difference of a few bits. Sophisticated CDP, amplifiers, and DAC have the capability to compensate for these losses. Our ears will not be able to discern the loss, and in most cases, the music will sound as sweet as ever.

asit said:
Strangely I also do have a DVDP (Sony DVP-NS708H) which by today's standards a very low-end DVD. I have hooked up this DVDP with the 740c by a digital coax cable (the 740c can act as a DAC and has 2 pairs of optical and coax inputs). Sometimes I have tried the DVDP as a transport for my CDs and have used the 740c as DAC. This way the audio quality is not quite the same, but still very very good. The details of the audio is still there, the most prominent effect I hear is a minor shift in strength towards the treble region and as result the sound is slightly brighter. The soundstage and imaging remain more or less the same. However, I again do not observe any jitter.

This is because the DVD player may not able to read with the same frequency range as the CDP. That is all.

asit said:
That prompts me to ask all of you: Am I looking for something that is very hard to observe? In that case why should we worry about it? Or is it just my ignorance or inability to detect it or my system is good enough not to demonstrate it?

Gopi, or anybody else, please explain, because although I have been listening to stereo music with separates from the mid 1980s, all I really cared for was good sound within my very limited budget and never bothered about these technical discussions, but recently the net is filled with all kinds of technical discussions, the word "jitter" is sprinked quite generously in all technical reviews of a CDP, and I and many others I suppose are starting to have some kind of inferiority complex because we do not understand what these people are talking about.

If I were using a 740C, I will be walking with my nose in the air. Not feeling inferior at all. The 740C is one of the best players in the world in its price class. Keep your CDs clean, and wipe them before using. Similarly use good cables, and keep you CD Player and amplifier covered when not being used.

Beyond this, I would suggest you forget about all the technicalities of 'jitter' and enjoy your music.

If you are curious, please also read the following link where I have explained jitter within digital circuits.

http://www.hifivision.com/audio-video-cables/2959-noob-question-sub-woofer-cable.html

Cheers
 
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gopi

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asit, let me tell you clearly - i am no expert :)
but, let me tell you based on reading. You have yourself seen that there is a difference between the sound quality using CA 740C directly versus using Sony DVD player. Theoritically both are just passing the digital data to the DAC and so, there should be no difference. Transport typically seems to mostly have issues in the way in which this data is given - there can be 2 problems here I know off.
1. the data has to be given in real time and any error caused during the reading has to be quickly corrected by some error correction mechanism and hence, modify the original data as a result. so, a transport thats not good can give you some more incorrect data than the one thats good.
2. tis is mostly the idea of jitter i suppose : the issue of being able to give the data in time and how synchronous it is between the master and slave (the player and the dac). There is a clock that governs this and different transports do a different job here and hence, affect the sound quality. Many DAC's claim that they eliminate jitter or atleast reduce jitter by reclocking the input and probably using some buffer and hence eliminating the effect of source. but , even this is disputed.
While mostly the difference between to high end transports might be almost negligible, something between the cheap dvd player and 740c should be audibile which is what you are stating. In short, the difference in sound you noticed is attributed to this jitter i suppose.
I know of Dacmagic users who have claimed there is definitely different results with different players - audible, but not much.
secondly, regarding dacmagic being costly for a DAC - I doubt it would be called costly - probably in india if its 25k. but, in us for $400 they are very competitive. infact to get a dac with balanced output you need to go higher. obviously diy dac's and more smaller companies might have a better pricing , but from a mainstream company this is one of the cheapest. regarding the sound difference between 740c, 640c and dacmagic - while they can be sharing the chips and the other things, there is no gaurantee that the output stage of them are same or different. for that matter - 640c and 740c - both uses the same wolfson dac's. there is some difference that 740c can upscale to 384khz, but more than that i think the different output stage should be the reason for the difference in sound. so, we are not sure whats the output stage of dacmagic is and hence, without listening we cannot say if its better/equal than 740c. the user reviews seem to suggest they are all good, but those who had 740c seem to think this wasn't as close.
 
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spirovious

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The DACMagic has DAC processing more at the level of 740C not the 640C. Though all three use the Wolfson WM8740 DAC chips, the 740C and the DACMagic have more refined upsampling and filtering methodologies in place.



Do you remember the old days when the record player use to skip, or the tape player would play at a slower speed? These were the worst nightmares of a vinyl system or a tape player.

Digital storage and transmission of data do not have these issues, but have a slightly different problem. A digital data has a finite quantum of information that is exact in nature. This information is read by, say, a CD Player, and sent to an amplifier in digital form. The amplifier reads the digital data, converts it into analogue form, amplifies it, and plays it on our speakers for our ears to understand.

Now how do you send digital data from one end to another of this chain? Using electrical current which are called carrier waves. Now the carrier waves by themselves are useless. So you add the digital data as 'modulations' to the carrier waves. In other words, the carrier wave is modified to represent the data we want it to carry. Modulation is the process of varying some characteristic of a carrier wave with an external signal. The carrier waves are generally electrical current in physically connected devices, or radio waves for devices that are far away from each other. In both these cases, the basic characteristics (amplitude, frequency, or phase) of the carrier signal are varied in accordance with the information bearing signal.

Now take the first case - of a CDP reading the data from the media. If the data in the CD and the one that is read is different even by a tiny amount, we have what is called 'jitter'. This difference could be just a few bits, but in the highly accurate digital system, this is supposed to be enormous. Now let us assume that the CDP has read with 100% accuracy. It sends the data to the amplifier through a carrier wave. Has it reached across with the same 100% accuracy? If not we again have jitter.

Jitter is, thus, any variation or dislocation in the pulses of a digital transmission. The usual causes include connection timeouts, connection time lags, data traffic congestion, and external interference.

The key to understanding jitter vis-a-vis digital transmission is precision, or acuracy of data. As digital information is sent out in small packets, if jitter occurs, synchronization becomes a problem and the receiving unit finds it difficult to correctly assemble the incoming data stream. Jitter can occur in both transmitting and receiving ends.

Generally to avoid jitter, devices use a localised buffer. Here the incoming signals are assembled before being used. This also gives the receiving station time to ensure that the data is accurate before it uses it.

Advanced CDPs read the same data packets multiple times and compare the copies or what are called 'samples'. If there is large amounts of similarity, it is happy. Else it will read it again. If needed, it reassembles the data from the samples to create the correct data stream.

In computer transmission, when the data is transmitted from one end to another, the carrier wave carries a checksum which allows the receiver to calculate the accuracy of the data received. If not, the receiver instructs the transmitter to resend the data. In audio and video, as they are in real time, this is not possible. Unless there is complete loss in signal, the receiver can use advanced mathematics to interpolate and guess the missing data.

Now what we are talking about is a loss or difference of a few bits. Sophisticated CDP, amplifiers, and DAC have the capability to compensate for these losses. Our ears will not be able to discern the loss, and in most cases, the music will sound as sweet as ever.



This is because the DVD player may not able to read with the same frequency range as the CDP. That is all.



If I were using a 740C, I will be walking with my nose in the air. Not feeling inferior at all. The 740C is one of the best players in the world in its price class. Keep your CDs clean, and wipe them before using. Similarly use good cables, and keep you CD Player and amplifier covered when not being used.

Beyond this, I would suggest you forget about all the technicalities of 'jitter' and enjoy your music.

If you are curious, please also read the following link where I have explained jitter within digital circuits.

http://www.hifivision.com/audio-video-cables/2959-noob-question-sub-woofer-cable.html

Cheers

If we connect good CDp like marantz 6002 to Onkyo AVR with
analoge method & keep AVR setting as Direct(to avoid etra circuits),should it not sound as good as stereo amp?
 
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venkatcr

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If we connect good CDp like marantz 6002 to Onkyo AVR with analoge method & keep AVR setting as Direct(to avoid etra circuits),should it not sound as good as stereo amp?

Spirovious. I see you are asking this question many times in many threads. I have also answered many times that it is very difficult to answer these general questions.

Have you already purchased these items or are you looking for confirmation of your choice? If you have purchased, are you looking for confirmation or reassurance? Do you want some help in optimising the sound from your existing system?

It is very difficult to tell you yes or no, unless you tell me which CDP and stereo amp you want the AVR to be compared with.

Let me give you some purely hypothetical examples. A good DVD player such as a Oppo 980 along with a AVR such as the Denon 1909, Yamaha 663/863, Marantz 4003, or Onkyo 606/706 will deliver good music up to something like a CA 540C/540A combination. CDPs such the 640C and stereo amplifier such as the 640A move into a different league and have specialised circuitry to optimise the acquisition and rendering of two channel sound. All these is valid only if you use the same speaker, the same interconnects, and same speaker cables. That is everything else in the chain must be the same.

Of course with the same AVRs, if you connect a good CD player, and keep the chain analogue and stereo all the way, you will get very good sound.

Beyond this, unless you have specific model numbers and do a side by side comparison, it is very difficult to say anything.

Many of the members here including me are happily listening to music using AVRs and DVD players. If you have not yet bought any system, do an audition with a good dealer who can show you the magic that AVRs can do with music. Most dealers use the AVRs for HT, and do not have the capability to demonstrate it for music.

Cheers
 
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odyssey

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There seems to be a lot of importance on jitter, re-clocking, etc while this is important, it will take a very revealing high end system to actually make out such a significant difference. The biggest difference between two DACs is philosophy and execution, this is what will determine the sonic signature. The transports - PC or DVD, etc will not matter so much. From reading this, it seems that the DACmagic and the CA640/740 have the same DAC chips, pls - this no way says whether one is better sounding than the other. What matters is how its executed assuming the sonic philosophy is the same - what components are used, the quality, etc. Whoever is interested in buying should listen to it make sure there is synergy with other components in the chain and then make a decision. Generally design philosophies being the same (same chip, same company, etc) a DAC may have a "better" (or more closer to their goal) sounding unit than a CDP, why? simply because they may not make the same compromises that they do on a CDP whether its PSU related or layout/shielding, component quality, etc after all they are working keeping a budget in mind.

cheers
sridhar@arnsystems.com
 
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Asit

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Hi venkat,
Thanks a lot for the care with which you have explained "jitter". I tend to think I have understood all of it.



If I were using a 740C, I will be walking with my nose in the air. Not feeling inferior at all. The 740C is one of the best players in the world in its price class.

That's a great feeling! After some time, when I think the 740c has comepletely broken in, I would like to present my brief non-technical impressions on it.


Hi Gopi,
Thanks to you also for your reply. Nice to know your views as well.
 
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