Help me to choose between these MEGA MONSTERS!!!

While you can argue using Ubers quite advanced inbuilt parametric equalizers provided for each of the channels one can tune to send LFs to the woofers (say with the rear surround terminals) while the rest to the tweeters (through the front terminals), I still think the equalizers does not have the sufficient adjustments needed to deal with this situation and most importantly was not designed to take over the work of a dedicated passive crossover present inside the speaker. Yes one could have definitely stopped unwanted high frequencies sent to the passive crossover of the speakers dealing with woofers but whether it would have made a difference I seriously doubt it.

The real benefit of bi-amping with AVRs is to have more power delivered to the front speakers especially while listening music in stereo mode. Ofcourse you do not have twice as much power but still get substantially more. Say a Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S with 130 watts X 2 @ 8 ohms rated power output under bi-amp mode will deliver as much as 200 watts X 2 to the fronts speakers in stereo playback. So now one has REAL 200 watts per channel to take care of bi-ampable hulking BAD ASS floor-standers.:D

The reason for the power output not to double up (i.e 260 watts X 2) is due to the limitation in power supply unit. Mind you REAL 200 watts X 2 = 400 watts will require a 800 watts power supply with Class-AB power amps which means a 800+ VA EI Core power transformer weighing nearly 10 kilos, which is exactly what VSA-AX10Ai-S have got. Using the same configuration in multi-channel mode will yield 5.1 channels, but now since the other extra three channels are also active the bi-amped fronts will have much less power, maybe around 140 watts per channel or so.

Hmm... so what if I I bridge instead of bi-amp? For example combine the rear surround left and front left into one, and combine the rear surround right and front right into another and put it into the two inputs on the speakers? This would basically make it bridged instead of bi-amped. What would the power rating be then and is there danger in damaging the speakers or the amplifier? I would set it in Bi-Amp mode so that the Rear surrounds will become the front left/right like in a bi-amp setup... This is much easier and I wouldn't need external electronic crossovers for my speakers...
 
Hello can you compare the denon 5803 version 1 vs denon 5800 . I currently have the 5803 version .i am currently bi amping thru zone 2 my fronts to deliver the extra power but by doing this I notice I loss some processing on certain movies. I had the 5800 and like it a lot but wanted to try the 5803 . Any little will help me thank you.
 
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Any info on a pioneer sc-37 ultra 2 . How those it stack up to my denon 5803 , minus the hdmi part.
 
... so what if I I bridge instead of bi-amp? For example combine the rear surround left and front left into one, and combine the rear surround right and front right into another and put it into the two inputs on the speakers? This would basically make it bridged instead of bi-amped. What would the power rating be then and is there danger in damaging the speakers or the amplifier?

I believe one should not bridge AV amplifiers or for the sake any stereo/ multi-channel power amplifier until it is designed to do so. Bridging amps requires additional circuits built into it so that it can be bridged otherwise there is cent percent chance of damaging the unit.

More technically inclined persons like our very own Kanwar (and we are lucky to have him onboard on HiFiVision as a moderator:)) can fully describe the technical details you are looking for. Ping him.
 
I have had the opportunity to own a JVC DP20VBK as well as JVC DP9VBK.
First, the DP9VBK has only 5 channels of in-built amplification vs 7 channels for the DP20VBK. This prevents the DP9VBK from getting a THX Ultra certification but otherwise they are very similar. Considering how similar in weight they are, the DP9VBK might have more juice per channel than the Dp20vbk.

About how they sound. They are plenty powerful and very detailed but their tonal signature is not my cup of tea. They have a lean sound. Light on bass and heavy on the mids and high. I have tried them with multiple speakers over a couple of years. They might pair well with warm speakers (like the Vintage Kefs) but even that is doubtful. They both have immense build quality and detail but their sound characteristics lead me to believe that their audience is rather limited.

Another receiver in this near-uber category is the Harman Kardon AVR 8000. This is a 60 lb beast with only 5 channels of amplification but oh what glorious five channels they are. Superb detail, low noise floor, well defined and nuanced bass.. If you can find one that is.. I see them come up on ebay once every couple of months..

I got involved in this quest for audio quite long, there have been days I was proud owner of pioneer and hitachi stereo receivers. Since this thread is more related to multi-channel avrs whom the OP states as ubers, I will limit my experience to these last of the Mohicans I owned.

Denon 5800: One of the best sounding receivers of its time, it entered market like a storm. I was there on dealers showroom for some good stereo amps for my newly purchased b&ws and was introduced. At those times I was purely into av separates having little adventure with a Yamaha a3090. The A3090 was great for HT, sound was quite good for its price, unfortunately SQ wise as expected nowhere near to my lexicons separates. In contrast to the Yamaha the denon had much more dynamic headroom with an easygoing, self-confident sound that, though arguably lacking the nth degree of high-frequency transparency, was never inappropriately edgy or aggressive. I started liking the smooth sound and bought it. Apart audio it was so much better than my lexicons in the video side, though limited to switching only, it performed flawlessly. After owning the z9 the denon had to go, but it served me well. A truly excellent product from denon.

Pioneer 59txi: I cannot quantify whether 59txi was better than the 5800 other than to say denon was louder while the pioneer was brighter. I admit to grasp the pioneer over 5800 any day though. Certified by air studios, this avr was more focused on clarity with more detailed and resolved sound exposing the intricate detailing of delicate soundtracks which defied my conception of avrs being merely a switching device with minuscule power. It raised the bar single handedly which left me thinking the use of separates other than outright power. After first few hours I was stunned..Yes it was that good SQ wise. One point to add is the imminently recognizable clarity may become a little fatiguing in my ears on long runs. If memory serves me right it was either sony or pioneer who introduced the ilink digital connectivity in avrs so while using the latest pioneer sacd/dvda players the 59txi went to another realm, bass became more taught, highs became more airy. If music is what you want while lacking the budget to gun for separates, this receiver was the best bet. Movies were good but not sounded as good as denon.

Yamaha Z9: The z9 was a true revelation. I was so elated with its performance; I sold my Lexicons within few months. Lexicons for sure had more driving power but I was in ruthless trimming mood. Comparing sound signatures it was neither smooth like denon or as sharp as pioneer and be best described as neutral to bright sounding. Its defining characteristics are terrific transparency, incisive dynamics, deeply extended bass that offers excellent pitch definition and superb three-dimensionality. From very onset it was equally balanced for both music and movies. SQ wise it offered every flavor an audiophool (a later realization after being a self proclaimed audiophile) like me will ever want. Z9s breakthrough pre amplifier design hidden in separate chambers in the chassis to counter electromagnetic interference, a true hifi philosophy, offered unheard neutrality, resolution and musicality in avr category which led many of my friends (including me) use it as a dedicated AV processor powered by separate monoblocks. Whats more, the preamps contained better than entry level phonostage offering surprising textural finesse, giving HT users a warm welcome to the world of analog. Later on I found its internal amp to be powerful enough for my loudspeakers as it effortlessly pulled my seven 804s. Till now I have not spoken about its video upscaling prowess which was tour-de-force among avrs, my HDTV offered never before seen clear and pristine upscaled videos from VHS tapes. Lastly I must add Z9 has the best built-in headphone amp I've heard. One fine day I was just listening to my headphones on the Z9 and was pleasantly surprised it was more than just an afterthought. I have listened to many preamps/amps/receivers using the internal headphone amps over the years, and have always observed a limitation in terms of distortion at reasonably high listening levels. With Z9 the sound doesn't become unlistenable and grainy when pushed, there's just more presence. Bottom line, I find Z9 to be the best receiver in last two decades.

Lexicon RV8: I admit to be a Lexicon fan from the very beginning and had to bring this up as rishiguru missed it. I had their separates, touted them to be better than others (even mcintosh) and when they finally made an avr, I immediately grabbed it. Naturally due to hi end brand credibility it initially retailed at seven grand (2.5 grand more than z9), was most expensive receiver in the market. SQ wise it almost had the magical ability to create something like the audio equivalent of persistence of vision with clarity, transparency, liquid mids and highs, and an ability to render dynamic contrasts second only to that of the z9. In short a shade better than z9 in having a slightly forward-sounding midrange with equal grunt. Apart for sound quality it did not even contain half the functionality/feature set of z9. No ilink was a real bummer. Released a few months later than z9 it only supported 5.1 channel inputs for its 7 internal amps which was frankly absurd for a receiver of this class & price. With two successive internal amp failures I finally admitted z9 had better build quality than lexicon (very hard for me to digest) while offering ton more usable functionalities. I sold it on an impulse to have a denon 5805, it still shares my memory with its beautiful tonal balance, wonderful soundstaging, and high resolution. In terms of SQ what set RV8 and Z9 apart from the rest are their astonishing dynamic coherence, with a bass response that was both controlled and detailed and utterly effortless reproduction of the most demanding bottom-end transients unheard in the receiver market. I still regret selling the RV8.

Denon 5805: Bought this thinking an upgrade from z9 & rv8 and right out of the box, the first thing I noticed was how the Denon was not as richly voiced in the upper bass and lower mids as the Z9, which is not to say that 5805 didn't have excellent drive or offer bass slam. 5805's portrayals of inner detail and transients were quite good as was its localization of images, it seemed a touch dry-sounding compared to Z9 in terms of a more elusive quality: tone. On its side was a real multi room capability with two full 5.1 channel zones, inbuilt 10 channels of amplification. I used to power my other two rooms but it never caught up on me. It was said to be denons hurried response to Yamahas z9, which was at its helm at those times. Retailing at 1.5 grand more, looked big enough to walk around on its own, gargantuan in my eyes, and got many scathing remarks in respected forums to copy almost all components from z9. It used the z9s DACs, ADCs, the video scalers, and many more. Other than multi-room capabilities the z9 was just better in almost every regard. It also had hdmi, but supported the same resolution of z9 as I was not in the mood to change my beloved HDTV.

Yamaha z11: The first of its kind to offer hdmi 1.3 with inbuilt hd audo decoders and was an anticipated model from my part as a replacement for z9. Never fructified to anything close to z9 thus sold within few weeks. Sound was good, video was great, but after you hear a z9 or rv8 it simply does not come close. The most offending part was the inability to drive my seven 807d, I was not going to follow the separate monoblock route again after moving to my new smaller house, thus refrained. SQ wise never close to z9, sounded undue bright and the pre-amp phono section was a total sucker.

Denon 5308: After the z11 I had this for a week and then sold it. Perhaps the z11 and 5308 was the end markers for me to no more continue my quest for top avrs. The z11 being quite complex to operate, the 5308 was a revelation. On screen menus where more logically laid out, video part was better than z11 while sounding quite constricted and undue bright at higher volume levels. The z9, rv8 and 59txi had so much in reserve their tonality remained unchanged as you pump up the volume, not so with z11 and 5308.

I had to mention about this relatively unkown avr below, though it does not fall in the class mentioned above:

JVC DP20: The most underestimated receiver of its generation, it had so much to offer while being ignored due to lack of snob value. On the day I went to buy the Yamaha z9, a friend of fine being a relative newcomer to the world of music and HT asked a favor to buy cheap receiver for him as starter. As I shelled 4.5 grand for my z9 I saw this jvc branded dp20 selling for mere 850 dollars brand new. They had an initial retail price of 2.5 grand but due to the lack of hi end brand image the re-sellers was selling them cheap. My friend being out stationed for over three month due to shipping business, I had enough time to spend a do direct comparison with z9 and 59 txi. Lacking the hi-class WOW effect of Z9 it was enough sound wise to put smile across my face. Its defining characteristics are an unfailing smoothness through the midrange and on up through the upper midrange, a gentle touch of warmth with high-frequency transients cymbals, vocal sibilants just where you'd want them: naturally smooth, yet exceptionally detailed and convincingly non-mechanical. However, relative to z9, the DP20 comes up a little short in terms of high-frequency transparency, more of a seethrough sound and in terms of midbass punch. It had separate 5.1 and 7.1 channel inputs though lacking ilink. It had bass and distance management system that operated flawlessly and I was awed at how much this avr provided for its mere asking price. If I had to describe dp20 in short it will be like having the sound signature of denon while having the grunt of 59txi and in having a little limited feature set of lexicon rv8. In the end I gave it ten out of ten in terms of SQ, power and features relative to its asking price. No other avr can get that good relative to price other than z9.
 
I had both Harman/Kardon AVR 8000 and AVR7300. Unfortunately I experienced lot of scary moments with them that just left bad taste in me. This was the very reason why I never bothered mentioning them in my review post. Both of them had the worst built quality among avrs I had ever come across.

AVR8000: This was their flagship 5.1 channel receiver, very plasticky to look at with plastic knobs, switches and everything. There was gaping gaps in the front panel window which later broke off not to mention the general adieu of the company name with time on the front panel. Speaks quality. Still it was bit better built than 7300 and came with high quality gold plated connectors and speaker terminals which you generally find in avrs twice its price. The most bizarre and weird problem was the sudden crank up to maximum volume right out of the blue, and even when you try to turn in down it goes on continuing to pump up the volume until are compelled to shut it down. Also there was strange buzzing sound from the center channel sometimes. When it worked SQ wise it was great, much warm, smooth and dynamic with enough dynamic headroom to feel full bodied no matter what volume you are listening at. Sound wise I put it above denon 5800 and in the same league of pioneer 59txi except for the grudging reliability problems I faced. The remote control was totally pathetic and once I thought to throw it out but the service guys from H/K after months of useless tries finally gave up and an offer was made to upgrade to 7300 for a little extra cash. I vouched for it.

AVR7300: This was better than 8000, which looked better, was less plasticky and offered more features like proper HDTV support with progressive scan video but strangely retaining the same scary phenomenon of automatically cranking up volume and then suddenly blasting at full. I cannot fathom what the H/K guys were doing other than grazing grass as two successive flagships had same identical problem. It was a proper 7.1 channel avr with equal power to avr8000 but was worth 500 bucks less. As some people was overwhelmed by how much the H/K offered as so less a price, truth about cost cutting got revealed and I found connectors and speaker terminals were just ordinary ones, thx ultra was gone. I admit the sound was just as good as avr8000 removing layers of sonic glaze that you find in todays avrs and delivering a vast improvement in resolution, transient speed and clarity. Its strengths was in rendering musical detail, it was in same league as a good entry level dedicated two-channel system harmonically and dynamically.

In the end I will say it was sonically as good at say a top end denon or pioneer on those times, but the all around product was just not at the same level from their Japanese counterparts retailing at twice their price. They may be available at ebay, but I believe there owners just want to shove those somewhat ill designed pieces. On the other hand a pioneer 59txi, Yamaha z9 or a denon 5800 was just better in every way and built like a tank. These are just my personal feelings, dont take otherwise.
 
Another receiver in this near-uber category is the Harman Kardon AVR 8000. This is a 60 lb beast with only 5 channels of amplification but oh what glorious five channels they are. Superb detail, low noise floor, well defined and nuanced bass.. If you can find one that is.. I see them come up on ebay once every couple of months..

I had both Harman/Kardon AVR 8000 and AVR7300. Unfortunately I experienced lot of scary moments with them that just left bad taste in me. This was the very reason why I never bothered mentioning them in my review post. Both of them had the worst built quality among avrs I had ever come across.

AVR8000: This was their flagship 5.1 channel receiver, very plasticky to look at with plastic knobs, switches and everything. There was gaping gaps in the front panel window which later broke off not to mention the general adieu of the company name with time on the front panel. Speaks quality. Still it was bit better built than 7300 and came with high quality gold plated connectors and speaker terminals which you generally find in avrs twice its price. The most bizarre and weird problem was the sudden crank up to maximum volume right out of the blue, and even when you try to turn in down it goes on continuing to pump up the volume until are compelled to shut it down. Also there was strange buzzing sound from the center channel sometimes. When it worked SQ wise it was great, much warm, smooth and dynamic with enough dynamic headroom to feel full bodied no matter what volume you are listening at. Sound wise I put it above denon 5800 and in the same league of pioneer 59txi except for the grudging reliability problems I faced. The remote control was totally pathetic and once I thought to throw it out but the service guys from H/K after months of useless tries finally gave up and an offer was made to upgrade to 7300 for a little extra cash. I vouched for it.

AVR7300: This was better than 8000, which looked better, was less plasticky and offered more features like proper HDTV support with progressive scan video but strangely retaining the same scary phenomenon of automatically cranking up volume and then suddenly blasting at full. I cannot fathom what the H/K guys were doing other than grazing grass as two successive flagships had same identical problem. It was a proper 7.1 channel avr with equal power to avr8000 but was worth 500 bucks less. As some people was overwhelmed by how much the H/K offered as so less a price, truth about cost cutting got revealed and I found connectors and speaker terminals were just ordinary ones, thx ultra was gone. I admit the sound was just as good as avr8000 removing layers of sonic glaze that you find in todays avrs and delivering a vast improvement in resolution, transient speed and clarity. Its strengths was in rendering musical detail, it was in same league as a good entry level dedicated two-channel system harmonically and dynamically.

In the end I will say it was sonically as good at say a top end denon or pioneer on those times, but the all around product was just not at the same level from their Japanese counterparts retailing at twice their price. They may be available at ebay, but I believe there owners just want to shove those somewhat ill designed pieces. On the other hand a pioneer 59txi, Yamaha z9 or a denon 5800 was just better in every way and built like a tank. These are just my personal feelings, dont take otherwise.

Pure dominance of Japanese manufacturers in AV amplifier/receiver market blinds many of us from some revered brands arising from USA. One of them that first come to mind is Harman, and there motto, led by legendry founder Sidney Harman who use to say that technology is their to serve music and not the other way round.

Harman International since then has grown and given birth to many well known brands like Lexicon, Harman Kardon to name a few serving different category of customers. While Lexicon is targeted to uber expensive audiophile group through specific dealer chains ending up for a basic processor + multi-channel power amp package in north of US $10,000, Harman Kardon was mostly targeted for mere mortals and common people like me who wants best bang for their buck and enjoys music/ movies.

Apart from marketing there are obvious differences between the two; while both being designed in United States (US), Lexicons are also assembled there packing better built quality, exotic designs schemes using selected, expensive Grade-A quality electronic components for supreme performance & reliability wrapped in an elegant, sturdy chassis to sustain prolonged lifespan for next quarter of a century, the average minimum life of Ubers. Looking at the innards of 2004 released US $7,000 Lexicon RV-8 avr revels this. More of Lexicons in my next post.

Lexicon RV-8

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AV receivers from Harmon Kardon on the other hand being designed in US, were manufactured in China. The main theme were to provide true VFM products with cost effective designs, to fit within a designated price bracket, use of mediocre quality electronic components mostly sourced from China (which when bought in huge quantities were dirt cheap) in a low cost bare bone chassis while keeping overall price amazingly low. Built quality was well Chinese at best, failure rate was alarming over 20 percent for their AV receivers. So every fifth customer had a good chance to receive fresh defective piece which was replaced after a call to the company, still people went on buying as they were killer VFM products and opted for a five year extended warranty at nominal US $95.

Here in this post I will once again be referring to the receiver war era between 2000~2009 which led to the creation of some of the most expensive & iconic AV amplifier/ receiver from Japan, leading audiophile marks like Lexicon to even consider building their first and only Uber AV receiver, the RV-8, as market was ready for it. Brands like Harman Kardon from the other end of the spectrum also upped their game to produce the best they ever made and to whom by above comments are targeted. In this post I have selected four Harman Kardon multi-channel AVRs from their two separate series, AVR 7xxx & AVR 8xxx which by general consensus are considered to be their best ever made while limiting my views to technical perspective only, I am yet hear these avrs. For those looking for a subjective view, I believe their owners in quotes above have already done that. Lets dig deep now.

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An AV amplifier/ receiver when looked upon from AV separates point-of-view happen to be an amalgamation of a separate AV processor with a multi-channel power amp on a single chassis. Hence from here on I have tried to put my views under similar headings.

Harman Kardon AVR 7000

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AVR 7000 when released in 2000 was a bold move by Harman Kardon to up its performance game offering great sonic performance at an extremely competitive US $1,800 price tag. Even with only five channels of amplification this TOTL had superb sound out gunning its competitors on the same price range and nearly reaching the realms of US $4,000 Ubers like the mighty Denon AVC-A1SE and Pioneer VSA-AX10. They were also marketed as AVR 7500 in Europe & Asian countries.

AVR 7000 also known as AVR 7500 in Europe & Asian countries

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Chassis: It was a basic, low cost affair here, the entire unit being built in China. The chassis/ cabinet being a single box affair have a single metal plate separating the internal pre-amp, video and dsp boards from power supply section while power amp remains completely exposed to the power supply and AV processor sections. If one is expecting Yamaha DSP-Z9 Uber type fully electromagnetically shielded triple chamber chassis hull only for AV processor part, let alone a separate dual chamber for power amps and one for power supply, its time to better wake up. The front face plate, knobs and switches were made of black plastic keeping cost low. It is clear Harman Kardon from very onset NEVER wanted to make an Uber with their AVR 7xxx series. Still for a mere street price which hovered around US $800~900 they were really great VFM stuff, selling in huge quantities.

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AV Processor: The in-built AV processor was below mediocre at best. Supporting only 5.1 channel analog inputs, it had only two inputs for co-axial & optical while one outputs for each. The DSP processor was a low cost affair containing a single Cirrus Logic CS492604 capable of 24-Bit processing and taking care of Dolby Digital & DTS processing with a maximum sampling processing capacity of 48 kHz. For stereo to multi-channel expansion technologies Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby 3 Stereo were provided. The six digital audio channels from this processor were fed to three 24-Bit, 96 kHz stereo AKM AK4393 DACs having 116dB dynamic range, finally arriving to the power amp section.

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Harmans own VMax and famous Logic 7 processing, exclusively developed and used by their Lexicon processors were also present, though a trickled down version. While selecting Logic 7 Music & Cinema DSP modes any digital or analog stereo signal was expanded in digital domain to 5.1 or 7.1 channels. Harman Kardon was lagging a lot behind their competitors with no bass management over multi-channel analog inputs even in TOTLs like AVR 7000 and the only supported DSP processing from analog sources was from stereo channels for Logic 7. Hence it required only one cheap 20-Bit, 48kHz stereo A/D converter AKM AK5392 with 99dB dynamic range to transfer the analog signal to digital domain.

The video section supported low bandwidth switching between composite, S-Video and component video. There were two component ins and one monitor out, limited to 10Hz-30MHz (-3dB) not being HDTV complaint. 480p is the maximum it could deliver via components. Pretty ancient and low cost stuff here which strictly speaking is of no use today, offering very limited processing speed even though its full 5.1 channel pre-amp outs may come handy sometimes.

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Power-amp: The real reason I believe TOTLs like AVR 7000 sounding so good was due to its superb power amp & power supply sections. One balancing the other, they sucked every bit of information from their mediocre in-built AV processor and made up for this inherent deficiency. It is usually the other way round for similarly priced Japanese avrs. They power amp stages were absurdly good for a receiver of its price range. With a power supply consisting of huge 1,000 VA toroidal transformer mated with 44,000uF of capacitance, it provided ample wattage to power amp output stages to play its game and make its Japanese competitors in the same price range sound puny. The power amp rail voltage was quite high with 65 VDC X 2 with ample current to feed dual matched pairs of Toshiba 2SA1943/2SC5200 power transistors for each of its five powered channels. These are 150 watt devices in dual configuration, means 200 watts of clean full bandwidth power per channel with residual 100 watts of overhead. With Harmon Kardon modestly rating AVR 7000 with 110 watts X 2 @ 8 ohms @ 20Hz 20kHz, <0.07% THD, both channels driven, I expect 100 watts X 5 @ 8 ohms all channels driven simultaneously a childs play and will easily handle 4 ohm loads on all channels simultaneously. These are REAL powerhouses with 22.3 kilos of bulk, affirming to contain large power supply and power-amp sections.

Power-amp IN options highlighted in RED

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Summary: With dedicated five channel power-amp in option, as of today its only use is of a dedicated five channel power-amp. Ebay prices ranges at around US $200 used, so great power-amp for its price.

AVR 7000 paired with Yamaha NS-1000

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Harman Kardon AVR 8000

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The truth is apart from sound quality and output power, AVR 7000 was never able to meet the standards of TOTLs from Japan, let alone Ubers which resided above TOTLs. By standards one can call it the quality of precision engineering, component quality used, product quality, overall reliability, all around ease of use, flexibility, and higher life-span with seal of Japan. But then again they were never intended to do so with US $1,800 price tag when TOTL models from Japan hovered around US $2,800 like Yamaha DSP-AZ1 released in 2001. I believe Harman Kardon understood this performance gap thus making a bold move in 2001 to up the ante and in deciding to go head on with their new lineup AVR 8xxx in-order to reduced this gap. AVR 8000 was born, entering a completely uncharted territory with an equal US $2,800 price tag. In Europe & Asian countries they were better known as AVR 8500. To me this is the best AV receiver Harman Kardon ever made.

The under-body of AVR 8000 chassis (Look at the M10 bolt holding the huge toroidal transformer)

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Chassis: Unfortunately the same low cost chassis of AVR 7000 was retained with all plastic affairs. I believe it was better decided to spend the extra US $1,000 cash over AVR 7000 on better internal electronic components, connectors and certification like THX Ultra which people trusts. They were right on doing so as it is clear Harman Kardon from very onset wanted to reach one step higher over their ever popular AVR 7xxx series with their newer AVR 8xxx series. Still for a street price which hovered around US $1,600~1,800 the AVR 8000 was a gold deal and a real VFM stuff.

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AV Processor: Harman Kardon made huge strides with their in-built AV processor, reducing the performance gap massively compared to TOTLs like DSP-AZ1 or Denon AVC-A11SE. AVR 8000 now supported full 7.1 channel analog inputs and increased the number of digital inputs from two to four each for co-axial & optical providing greater flexibility to connect multiple digital devices. Two digital outputs for co-axial and optical each were also provided. Newest VMax and Logic 7 Music & Cinema DSP processing where included though limiting to stereo inputs only as there was no processing from multi-channel analog sources. In order to process Logic 7 in digital domain from analog stereo sources a single upgraded 24-Bit, 48kHz stereo A/D converter AKM AK5392 with 116dB dynamic range was used.

AVR 8000 also known as AVR 8500 in Europe & Asian countries

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On DSP front the new Cirrus Logic CS49326 was not only more powerful than previous but there were actually two used, having over twice the processing power over AVR 7000. As AVR 8000 contained much revered THX Ultra certification, requiring special meticulous attention from the very input to the speaker output terminals, one CS49326 was dedicated for THX Ultra and THX Surround EX post processing while the other did duty with the rest like Logic 7, Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby Pro Logic II and Dolby 3 Stereo. Newly included was THX Ultra processing, THX Surround EX and support for two new DTS formats namely DTS ES and DTS Neo:6. AVR 8000 was also one of the few avrs which was HDCD complaint.

Harman's Logic 7 Processing

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THX Ultra Post Processing

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The eight digital audio channels from both the CS49326s capable of 24-Bit processing were then fed to four upgraded 24-Bit, 192kHz stereo Analog Devices AD1852 DACs delivering 114dB dynamic range, finally arriving to the power amp section. The point to note is the entire dsp processing was able to handle a maximum sampling rate of 48 kHz, so forget about six times denser SACD and DVD-A quality processing at 24-bit resolution and up to 96kHz sampling rates found on Ubers like DSP-Z9. It requires humongous processing power. There was no bass management over multi-channel analog inputs.

The video section was same as AVR 7000 supporting low bandwidth switching between composite, S-Video and component video. Number of components inputs were increased to three and the monitor out was limited to 10Hz-30MHz (-3dB), not being HDTV complaint which requires 10Hz-60MHz (-3dB) or above. 480p is the maximum it could deliver via components.

Good quality in-built AV processor having gold plated connectors to reduce noise

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The internal electronic components though Chinese were much better in quality than stock low quality Chinese stuff used in AVR 7000. All AV input/output terminals were full gold plated as was the two way speaker binding posts being all metal, very high quality. All la THX to reduce noise. Pretty decent stuff here with assured THX Ultra sound quality and processing with addition of THX Surround EX, DTS ES, and newest Logic 7 along with complete 7.1 channel pre-amp outs. Similar priced DSP-AZ1 came with only 5.1 channels inputs and no THX processing.

Power-amp: The real reason for AVR 8000 sounding exceptionally good for its price and much better than AVR 7000 was mainly due to much improved AV processor side mated with an even better power amp & power supply sections. It had an ultra smooth, detailed and warm sound of high end tube amps. People started comparing AVR 8000s sound signature and SQ to high end McIntosh and Naim amps. With high current power amp stages, power rating became irrelevant and suddenly the modestly rated 125 watts X 2 @ 8 ohms @ 20Hz 20kHz, <0.07% THD, both channels driven AVR 8000 sounded like 200 watts per channel Japanese Ubers.

Look at the size of the toroidal transformer and those heatsinks denoting massive power-amp output stages

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Mind you, and this is the only chink in AVR 8000 armor, even though AV processor part had full 7.1 channel support the power amp had only five channels of amplification. Hence for the rest two surround back channels separate power amp like Harman Kardon PA 2000 (100 watts X 2) need to be used in tandem. This was the very reason why AVR 8000 was not able to pass THX Ultra 2 certification which requires seven identical powered channels. The reason Harman Kardon stated behind the lack of two power channels was that it became physically impossible to fit an extra two audiophile grade channels of amplification which produce a true minimum of 125 watts each with extremely high current output capability in the same chassis of previous AVR 7000 without making AVR 8000 size totally impractical or compromising the quality of the amplification. After going through the service manual I confirm this to be true, though one more channel could have been easily added.

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If the picture above, the left bank for power-amp section contains three channels of amplification while the right bank with equal space just two. They could have easily relocated the tuner circuit at the end of the right heatsink (which they did with later models) empting the space to add one more channel having six channels of amplification. This would have greatly benefited the customer and improved sales as AVR 8000 contained two new 6.1 channel formats, namely THX Surround EX and DTS ES which were rave those times.

AVR 8000s real competitors like DSP-AZ1 typically use a common power supply for both output drivers and outputs power transistors, so when maxed the driver stages will eventually get starved as there is less voltage/current available for them reducing the bandwidth of the driver stages which in turn effects the drive to power transistors, sounding constricted at high volume. Retaining the huge 1,000 VA toroidal transformer of AVR 7000 in the power supply section mated with even larger pair of 27,000uF, 80V power capacitors (54,000uF in total), Harman Kardon cleverly opted for dual amplifier power supply topology where one voltage rail (60 VDC X 2) goes directly to feed the output power transistors while the other independent of the former to the output drivers. So when the amplifier is operated at full power the driver stages are not at all affected and starved of voltage/current as it is independent and are able to adequately drive the power transistors retaining the full bandwidth even at full power. This is US $4,500 DSP-Z9 Uber technology trickled down to an avr half its price!!! Kudos to Harman Kardon, but wait we are not finished.

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AVR 8000 uses wait for it not one pair not dual pair but TRIPLE matched pairs of Toshiba 2SA1943/2SC5200 power transistors in output stages for each of its five identically powered channels. These are 150 watt devices in triple configuration, meaning 450 watts per channel yielding 300 watts of ultra-wide bandwidth, clean power per channel with residual 150 watts of overhead. This is phenomenal power-amp output stage for any AV receiver and their modest claim of just 125 watts X 2 @ 8 ohms @ 20Hz 20kHz, <0.07% THD both channels driven, frankly speaking, I will not be surprised if it even eclipses many 170 watts X 2 rated Japanese Ubers in raw power!!! With the huge power reserve over its rated power at 8 ohms load means when 4 ohm loads are applied it will open the flood gates of hi current reserved power per channel, and operate much better than quintessential Yamaha DSP-Z9 or Denon AVC-A1SRA in stereo. For multi-channel performance the Ubers will have upper hand as they use even bigger power supplies and this time the power will be distributed to all channels retaining more power per channel. On the other hand AVR 8000 will obliterate its real opponents like DSP-AZ1 or AVC-A11SE where power output is concerned being more optimized to operate with full range 4 ohm floorstanders on all five powered channels simultaneously without breaking sweat at extremely high volume levels. It was no doubt the best high-current power amp stage ever built by Harman Kardon for an AV receiver. So, double kudos to them.

View of the AVR 8000 with the center sub-assemblies and the rear panel removed

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Overall weight of AVR 8000 increased by nearly two kilos to 24.1 kg thanks to bigger power capacitors, bigger and more complex AV processor and yes the heat sinks where upgraded with larger solid aluminum types for superior heat dissipation an in holding thirty power transistors capable to achieve 1500 watts of clean power when supplemented with a proper power supply. Even though a six channel power amp section in that chassis was entirely viable, a seven channel power amp would have definitely required an even bigger heatsink with no space to accommodate another 12 output transistors.

Dedicated 5-channel Power-amp IN options

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Summary: With ebay prices hovering around US $300, these are real gold mines. Stereo & multi-channel music lovers like me will rejoice in their SQ, offering Uber quality sound at so less a price. Movie lovers can by-pass the entire AV processor side and take advantage of the high-current power-amp using its dedicated five channel power-amp in option mated to newer 7.1 channel avrs with pre-outs. AVR 8000 was a landmark AV receiver and the best there is from Harman Kardon.

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Harman Kardon AVR 7200

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AVR 8000s sold really well leading Harman Kardon to hibernation mode for next two years. Why fix something when its working? Finally in 2003 their next TOTL arrived, this time with full seven channels of amplification with near identical advertised power per channel to that of AVR 8000 while costing US $800 less. Amazing as it sounds AVR 7200 was never an upgrade over AVR 8000, it was the other way round. There is no doubt the aggressively priced US $2,000 AVR 7200 was a winner from marketing point of view with in-built support for full seven channels of amplification which was becoming a necessity.

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Chassis: Again the same old, mediocre quality chassis saga continued. It is clear Harman Kardon from very onset NEVER wanted to create a real successor of AVR 8000 with their AVR 7200. On the other hand technically speaking it was the successor of aging AVR 7000. Still for a mere street price which hovered around US $1,000~1,200 they sold well, great VFM stuff.

AV Processor: The in-built AV processor was a ripped down low cost version of AVR 8000. Retaining the 7.1 channel layout, it had one less inputs for co-axial & optical each. With no THX Ultra processing, DSP processing power was halved. The Cirrus Logic CS49326 exclusively used before for THX Ultra and THX Surround EX was gone while the other CS49326 capable of 24-Bit processing was retained to support all the rest decoding/ processing with the same maximum sampling capacity of 48 kHz of AVR 8000. The eight digital audio channels from the processor were then fed to a single 24-Bit, 192 kHz 8-channel Cirrus Logic CS4382 DAC having same 116dB dynamic range, finally arriving to the power amp section. Sadly AVR 7200 completely ditched the high quality gold plated connectors and speaker terminals of AVR 8000 and went for cheaper versions on AVR 7000.

Cheaper connector & speaker terminals to that of AVR 8000

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The only game change in the entire AV processor side was inclusion of digital bass management on 7.1 channel analog inputs. It was of ancient type not containing crossover setting for individual channels, rather divided into three sets of speaker groups: Fronts, Center & Surrounds. Though Logic 7 required only one ADC for front channels, due to 7.1 analog channel bass management four 24-Bit, 48 kHz stereo Cirrus Logic CS5360 ADCs with 105dB dynamic range was thrown in to transfer the analog signals to digital domain.

The video section was improved now supporting medium bandwidth switching between composite, S-Video and component video. There were one less component ins than AVR 8000, limited to 10Hz-50MHz (-3dB) and were not HDTV complaint which requires 10Hz-60MHz (-3dB) or above. 576p is the maximum it could deliver via components. Pretty downgraded stuff compared to AVR 8000, which strictly speaking is of little use today offering very limited processing speed even though its full 7.1 channel pre-amp outs may come handy sometimes.

Power-amp: Once more AVR 7200 sounded much better than its competitors having more reserved power in the same price range, it was so damn cheap being manufactured in China while the Japanese made their TOTLs in home. The same power amp & power supply sections of AVR 7000 were carry forwarded while adding two additional channels for rear surrounds in the same chassis.

Changes in power supply orientation and hollow type Left heatsink

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Some changes in orientation of power supply section can be observed as the circuit board present vertically in front of the slight right aligned toroidal transformer of AVR 7000 was now horizontally mounted on top of transformer, freeing up space so the transformer can be moved forward and be kept on the center line of the avr, balancing the weight of the whole unit. The same 2 X 27,000uF, 80V power capacitors were plucked from AVR 8000 and had to do the duty with seven channels thus having less reserves per channel than AVR 8000. Harmon Kardon did a trick to separate power supply rails for the fronts (FL, FR, Cen) and the surrounds (SL, SR, SBL, SBR) channels, both being independent and un-effected from each other. Personally I find the AVR 8000s dual amplifier power supplies, one for driver stage and one for output stage superior than AVR 7200s dual, independent power supplies for front and rear channels where driver & output stage share the same supply.

The power amp output stages was downgraded from AVR 8000s triple to double matched pair of Toshiba 2SA1943/2SC5200 power transistors, for each of its seven powered channels fed with less voltage (55 VDC X 2). Seven powered channels were now possible in the same cabinet as it had less number of power transistors (28 of them) to accommodate the heatsinks surface area of identical length to that of AVR 8000 which had 30 of them for just five channels. The solid aluminum heat sink on the right bank containing four channels was bigger than the cheaper hollow left heatsink containing three channels.

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With all this I was expecting less power than AVR 8000 or even AVR 7000 put still it pulled out 115W X 2 @ 20Hz ~ 20kHz @ < 0.07% THD @ 8 ohms both channels driven. With less current available, with stereo as well as five channel operation AVR 8000 will have advantage. Still AVR 7200 will easily be able to handle 4 ohm loads on all channels simultaneously.

Summary: Performance (5.1 channel AVR 8000) clash with necessity (7.1 channel AVR 7200). I think this sums it up perfectly as both weighing 24.1 kilos, AVR 7200 didnt gain anything on the power-amp section other than two additional channels, had a mediocre AV processor performance with no THX Ultra. Much cheaper quality connectors were used to save cost, which was reflected in their asking price. The lack of any power-amp in options severely limited any use as power-amp as of today and reminded us why during the release of AVR 8000 they said it was physically impossible to design and fit seven audiophile grade channels of amplification with extremely high current output capability in this chassis. They contradicted their view with AVR 7200 compromising the quality of the amplification an in having seven channels in the same chassis and in doing so lost faith in the power amp capability, thus retrieving to provide power-amp in options. Change of times I believe, still no one complained as it sold in great numbers. Neither do we with their highly competitive asking price.

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Harman Kardon AVR 7300

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While AVR 7200 sold really well its successor AVR 7300 made a giant leap on AV processor technology alike AVR 8000 did three years back. Unfortunately, once more we were missing a real AVR 8000 successor which eventually never came up. There was no doubt the US $2,400 AVR 7300, released in 2004 was a real VFM and true winner right away supporting newer audio formats, video up-scaling for the first time and full HDTV support all wrapped in an extremely competitive price package.

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Chassis: The same old chassis was used while front plastic face plate was changed to newer rather stylish glossy look in silver introducing a better upmarket feel than previous all black ones. The entire cabinet continued silver color theme but where nowhere near to TOTLs from Japan like DSP-AZ1 chassis, let alone Ubers. Still for a street price which hovered around US $1,300~1,400 they sold like hot buns and were killer VFM product.

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AV Processor: Harman Kardon finally made some tinkering with their ageing in-built AV processor. 7.1 channel layouts now being mandatory was retained along with inclusion of one more inputs each for co-axial & optical relative to AVR 7200. A much more powerful Cirrus Logic CS49400 processor was chosen because it not only offered dual DSP engines plus a 32-Bit audio post processor, but it also allowed the Dolby Digital and DTS pull-up tables to be stored on-board rather than in external memory. This allowed AVR 7300 faster loading and, apparently, increased accuracy than single Cirrus Logic CS49326 of AVR 7200.

The AVR 7xxx models never had THX Ultra processing, but apart from that, those found on AVR 7200 was included. Newer and much awaited DTS 96/24 decoding finally arrived (DSP-AZ1 had it since 2001) as well as inclusion of many newer multi-channel expansion technologies like Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Dolby Virtual Speaker and Dolby Headphone. DSP processing still operated at 24-bit resolution and up to 48 kHz sampling rates. The eight digital audio channels from the processor were then fed to a single 24-Bit, 192 kHz 8-channel Cirrus Logic CS42528 DAC having 114dB dynamic range, finally arriving to the power amp section. It also contained the same cheaper connectors/ speaker terminals of AVR 7200.

Cheaper connector & speaker terminals to that of AVR 8000

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AVR 7200 was first to introduce digital bass management in their TOTL line-up and AVR 7300 continued the theme for 7.1 channel analog inputs. It improved a bit, still not supporting crossover setting for individual channels but rather adding a little more flexibility by divided into four sets (previously three) of speaker groups: Fronts, Center, Surround & Surround Backs. Though Logic 7 required only one ADC for front channels, due to 7.1 analog channel bass management four newer and improved 24-Bit, 192 kHz stereo Cirrus Logic CS5361 ADCs with 114dB dynamic range was used to transfer the signals to digital domain. Full 7.1 channel pre-outs were also provided.

Full HDTV complaint 720p/1080i Component Video Monitor Out

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The video section for the first time supported high bandwidth switching between composite, S-Video and component video. There were one more component ins than AVR 7200 with full 10Hz-100MHz (-3dB) HDTV support via component outs. Utilizing a Faroudja DCDi FLi2300 integrated video processor with patented DCDi technology, 480p progressive-scan video output was possible from interlaced 480i video sources not to mention full 720p/ 1080i pass through capability via components. The AVR 7300 simply put offered the best and most flexible inbuilt AV processor of the four TOTLs.

Power-amp: AVR 7300 retained the same power-amp output stages of AVR 7200, though some thoughtful touch ups were made to improve overall performance. The power supply section contained the same toroidal transformer brought forward by four generations but now supplemented with even bigger 2 X 39,000uF, 80V power capacitors increasing the dynamic headroom per channel over AVR 7200 even with identical 55 VDC X 2 voltage rails. Claimed power output was inflated at 125W X 2 @ 20Hz ~ 20kHz @ < 0.07% THD @ 8 ohms, but still AVR 8000 will provide more current per channel due to beefier output stages and have more control & drive over AVR 7300 over stereo as well as 5-channel operating modes.

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The power supply and power amp topologies remained identical to that of AVR 7200 with independent power supplies for front and rear channels and in containing dual matched pair of Toshiba 2SA1943/2SC5200 power transistors for each of its seven powered channels. The left bank of heatsink containing three channels was upgraded to solid aluminum types for better heat dissipation. AVR 7300 will easily handle 4 ohm loads on all channels simultaneously. Weighing 24.9 kilos it was 800 grams heavier than AVR 7200 due to bigger caps, use of solid heatsinks and improved video section all adding weight.

Massive power-amp stages of AVR 7300 visible through the cabinet

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Left bank heatsink upgraded to solid aluminum types for better heat dissipation

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Summary: As of today AVR 7300 seems to have the best balance of performance and features of the all four TOTLs discussed above. It has ample power to drive any speaker on the market today, supports 7.1 channels inputs, has 7.1 channel pre-amp outs, and supports all DVD audio formats with full HDTV support via component outs. With prices staying at around US $ 300 in ebay they are real steal.

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Which then brings us to the question as of why even spend this tiny sum on a decade old avr when the inbuilt AV processor of AVR 7300 did not support HDMI switching and are unable to decode latest blu-ray audio formats from Dolby & DTS? Who cares about 480p up-scaling when you get 1080p through modern avrs via HDMI? In case of Ubers using their in-built AV processor made sense, as no AVR as of today can vouch to match the sound quality emanated from those discrete, extremely high quality audiophile grade designs with super expensive electronic components embedded like jewels.

Harman Kardon AVR 7300

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AVR 7300 only advantage over recent TOTL avrs is in use of in-built high-current power-amp stages which performance wise simply blows all recent Japanese and American TOTLs out of the window. But then again with no power-amp in options one cannot use it as a dedicated power amp. So my preferred choice in the end will always be AVR 8000 which produce a TRUE minimum of (125 watts X 2) and (100 watts X 5) under 8 ohms load with extremely high current output capability. AVR 8000 never compromised the quality of the amplification as per Harman Kardon standards which makes it the best Harman Kardon AV receiver ever made. It sure will sound great for serious music listening in stereo as well as multi-channel with DVD-A and SACDs in Pure Direct mode even by todays standards, with the in-built AV processor having high quality gold plated connectors.

For HT lovers, one can simply go for cheapest receiver in the market supporting full 7.1 channel pre-outs and use AVR 8000s in-built hi-current power amp for the fronts, center and surrounds and let the surround backs be handled by their new receiver. With a mere addition of US $ 300 (AVR 8000 on ebay) to the total expense, sound quality will dramatically improve ten folds with the THX Ultra certified amps of AVR 8000 in action, delivering loads of current through those high quality all metal gold plated speaker terminals and in having enough power and dynamic headroom to drive all speakers you can provide to beyond cinema levels and shake your house from basic foundations.

Harman Kardon AVR 8000 aka AVR 8500

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Full gold plated high quality connector & speaker terminals of AVR 8000

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AVR 8000's supreme ability to handle hulking 4-ohm towers all around

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Hello rishiguru. First of all I want to congratulate you for this incredible thread you have put together, which is a great source of inspiration for novices like me. I have been sneaking up this forum for few months, reading few threads and this one in particular caught my eye and took some weeks to grasp & understand the technical dig as well as the amazing experience of these monster receivers owners.

This being my first post, I will try to keep it short. My brother being abroad and very much an audio/video nut recently gifted an arcam avr750 to our parents. This receiver is the top model from arcam and is coupled with paradigm 7.1 speaker set and together produces amazing sound and power be it music or movies. My Panasonic boomboxes sounds bloated to my ears now after hearing the arcam. Completing my masters I still happen to be a student with very little hand money to spend. As such I want to buy one of the uber receivers which are available now at one forth their original retail price. And by brother can really help here so I was hoping you or for the matter anyone help me here. He has already located a Yamaha z9, onkyo nr1000 and a marantz 9006. Which will I buy? Will these be as good as the arcam? Which is the best on these ubers?

EDIT: Ebay prices are about 800 to 1000 dollars of these models. z9 stretches beyond 1000 some times which becomes very hard on my wallet.
 
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Can anybody plz help me out here? My brother is travelling to India soon and we need to decide quickly. The more I read this thread more I tend to believe z9 is the best but I need inputs from the experienced people out here. I find quite a few people own the denon monster, can they plz share their thoughts. My brother had auditioned the onkyo 1000 and says it to be great sounding avr an having hdmi too. Also the previous owner has taken good care so it is great condition. We are almost fixed on it.
 
Can anybody plz help me out here? My brother is travelling to India soon and we need to decide quickly. The more I read this thread more I tend to believe z9 is the best but I need inputs from the experienced people out here. I find quite a few people own the denon monster, can they plz share their thoughts. My brother had auditioned the onkyo 1000 and says it to be great sounding avr an having hdmi too. Also the previous owner has taken good care so it is great condition. We are almost fixed on it.

I own the once Denon flagship AVC-A1SRA. It's a great machine. Two things that puzzles me about this amp are - how on earth can an AVR deliver so much power. I drive reference grade studio speakers with them on 5 channels simultaneously and they never run out of juice, despite speakers happen to be a 4 Ohms nominal load.

Onkyo has made many great sounding machines as well. More so in last 3-4 years. But I would tend to think that they won't compete with the likes of TOTL machines that are discussed in this thread.

Read this thread carefully, there is a LOT to learn here. You will have to worship the Google god for months to learn what you can learn in a few days by reading this thread thoroughly.
 
Hello rishiguru. First of all I want to congratulate you for this incredible thread you have put together, which is a great source of inspiration for novices like me.

Thanks for the complements.:)

My brother being abroad and very much an audio/video nut recently gifted an arcam avr750 to our parents. This receiver is the top model from arcam and is coupled with paradigm 7.1 speaker set and together produces amazing sound and power be it music or movies.

There always been a division of thought between HT and strictly stereo HiFi camps, with the later claiming HiFi and HT cannot co-exist. While being dismissive of this philosophical division between these camps after hearing a few Ubers AV amplifiers, once more I feel rejuvenated and stand firm on my belief when manufactures like Arcam start saying their newest TOTL AVR is also the best stereo amplifier they ever made.:eek:hyeah:

Arcam is one of the few audiophile brands (so to say) in AV receiver market. The truth is HT is a tougher business than HiFi, is ten folds technically challenging and needs extensive development time with big budgets to produce a successful, descent sounding AVR with an equal video prowess. AVR business is so technically challenging and resource intensive now-a-days that even manufacturer like Arcam & Cambridge Audio had initial hiccups with their TOTL avrs a few years back in terms of reliability and overall performance. Gone now are the dark days of Arcam AVR600, enter the new for 2013 revitalized AVR750. At least sound wise your TOTL AVR750 with their distinctive Class-G power amps will be a top performer. At being a 4000 British sterling pound, US $6,500 and more relatively INR 4 lakh plus AV receiver in India it better be.

Arcam FMJ AVR750

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Completing my masters I still happen to be a student with very little hand money to spend. As such I want to buy one of the uber receivers which are available now at one forth their original retail price. And by brother can really help here so I was hoping you or for the matter anyone help me here. He has already located a Yamaha z9, onkyo nr1000 and a marantz 9006. Which will I buy? Will these be as good as the arcam? Which is the best on these ubers?

All the three Uber AV amplifiers stated by you will be more or less in the same league of Arcam AVR750 in terms of audio quality. And then they will have more outright power if you ever needed more. I do not have a single speck of doubt about this. About which being the best, frankly I do not know as I am yet to hear the mentioned Onkyo or the Marantz. Tell your brother to audition and pick the one which sounds the best in his ears. A word of caution, all three Ubers mentioned does not support in-built HD audio decoding.

The more I read this thread more I tend to believe z9 is the best but I need inputs from the experienced people out here.

Yamaha RX-Z9

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There are reasons why DSP-Z9 is loved so much by their owners while there are even bigger reasons why Yamaha itself nominated their DSP-Z9 as their best AV amplifier ever conceived. I own a Yamaha DSP-Z9 and it surprises me every day with its fine rendering of musical details in analog Pure Direct or digital Straight PCM modes. The DSP-Z9 on those modes simply acts like a wire with gain, nothing added or subtracted. Switch to one of its Cinema DSP modes and with striking immediacy it transforms itself to testosterone filled powerful American supercharged muscle car with an ability to recreate theatrical experience at reference level, as intended from directors chair and shakes the entire house with spine fracturing power.

Way back in 2000 when Yamaha management decided to create their first, cost-no-bar Uber as market was ready for such an AV amplifier there went a major reshuffle in Yamaha AV department and a new development team was born net picking some of the best engineers from Yamaha AV , Yamaha HiFi and Yamaha Professional Audio (PA) departments. With huge budget allotted for development, billability was never an issue.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 opting for "Pure Audio Fidelity"

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When these top designers went on to design the DSP-Z9, they threw out the decade old HT amp design of its predecessor DSP-AZ1 as they believed it had reached the limit of its performance. With their first Uber DSP-Z9 the engineers choose the path of Pure Audio Fidelity, designing each sub-components from scratch, a completely new ballpark and left no stone unturned in terms of audio performance, video performance and ease of use.

As always a certain technical design of audio pre and power amplifier will lend a certain character in the sound signature of an audio amplifier. Previously with DSP-AZ1 the sound was neutral, fine, delicate & textured i.e the sound of Yamaha back then. But the newly appointed chief engineer of the elite DSP-Z9 technical team was not happy with it; to his ears it was a little bit lean sounding and lacking the powerful feeling in the sound when compared to the mighty Denon AVC-A1SE. A Yamaha AV amplifier must sound like a Yamaha, so they not only carry forwarded the signature sound elements of Yamaha with even higher levels of refinements but this time added another dimension to DSP-Z9 i.e an addition of powerful stance/ feel in its signature sound.

The feeling of powerful sound in DSP-Z9 to a certain extent came from the intended inherent design characteristics of the in-built pre-amplifier, its in-built brawny power amplifier having tons of reserve power and finally from the tuning of sound signature in their studio. Due to the current reshuffle, the main engineer now in-charge of design and development of DSP-Z9s power amplifier happened to come from their PA department. From a person who is used to design PA power amps capable to handle insane loads and deliver gut wrenching power without breaking a sweat, DSP-Z9 started to imbibe similar PA type characteristics. As such the completely new power amps design of DSP-Z9 was drastically different as well as unique from any other AV amplifiers from Yamaha or for the matter any other brand. I am yet to find one with similar design characteristics. For example, the in-built power-amp heatsink design was so unique in design while accommodating double the amount of power transistors than its predecessor DSP-AZ1.

Unique in-built power amplifer section in Yamaha DSP-Z9

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I can guarantee DSP-Z9 to be fearless of heat and fearless of any dynamic peaks you can throw at it. But to feed such a mighty power amp (by AVR standards) the in-built power supply needs to be even mightier, so they rejected the EI core typed power transformer of DSP-AZ1 and used a two times more powerful 1500 VAC toroidal transformer having an outer diameter of half foot. The power capacitors were so huge they can best be described as Red Bull cans. The brawn of the power amp was later realized when Yamaha quoted the dynamic power under 2 ohms load can reach 580 + 580 watts in stereo. Granted these amounts of power is unleashed by DSP-Z9 for a fraction of a second to handle a dynamic peak, but no-other AV amplifier can vouch to achieve this feat under 2 ohms load.

But there is more to DSP-Z9 other than outright power. For more information read the entire thread thoroughly. Sadly this elite team got dispersed after DSP-Z9 was released in 2004 as there were new needs from their HiFi department for new projects like A-S2000, A-S1000, A-S700 and A-S500 stereo integrateds. Thus the later 2007 released DSP-Z11 was led by another development team.

My brother had auditioned the onkyo 1000 and says it to be great sounding avr an having hdmi too. Also the previous owner has taken good care so it is great condition. We are almost fixed on it.

The TX-NR1000 is the best AV amplifier and the only Uber Onkyo ever made. I have not heard it, but I believe it is impossible not to be impressed with the sound quality from this mighty AV amplifier. I am not even talking about its power output capability, just stating this Onkyo happens to be two times heaftier than your Arcam.

Update us with your purchase and let your ears and heart rule the decision.

Onkyo TX-NR1000

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Thanks ranjeetrain to provide your insight regarding the denon avc-a1sra. It must be a great sounding avr. Does it support blu-ray audio as i am told it does not. I do not understand a lot regarding nominal loads of speakers other than 4 ohms loads are much harder for the amplifier than 8 ohms load and 4 ohms speakers are louder. Am I correct?

rishiguru thanks for providing such a detailed answer to my post. All your posts in this thread have become reference points to me. My brother will be visiting a secondhand seller this week for auditioning the dsp-z9. It is little bit far from his stay. If all goes well it will be either the onkyo or the Yamaha.

To both you guys, do we need to look to any specifics while buying a secondhand AVR? I am a noob here, we never bought any seconds audio/video item so do pardon me for asking this.
 
Thanks ranjeetrain to provide your insight regarding the denon avc-a1sra. It must be a great sounding avr. Does it support blu-ray audio as i am told it does not. I do not understand a lot regarding nominal loads of speakers other than 4 ohms loads are much harder for the amplifier than 8 ohms load and 4 ohms speakers are louder. Am I correct?

To both you guys, do we need to look to any specifics while buying a secondhand AVR? I am a noob here, we never bought any seconds audio/video item so do pardon me for asking this.

No Sudhir, old generation AVR's don't support newer encoding formats. This is a trade-off while buying an old generation AVR. However, most blurays do come with a DD5.1 channel audio for backward compatibility. So, if you can live with that you can look at those amps.

Your understanding of impedance rating of speaker is correct. Lower impedance rating of a speaker means that the amp will have to provide more current to drive it, a trait AVRs are not typically associated with.
 
No Sudhir, old generation AVR's don't support newer encoding formats. This is a trade-off while buying an old generation AVR. However, most blurays do come with a DD5.1 channel audio for backward compatibility. So, if you can live with that you can look at those amps.

Your understanding of impedance rating of speaker is correct. Lower impedance rating of a speaker means that the amp will have to provide more current to drive it, a trait AVRs are not typically associated with.

Thanks ranjeetrain for the info. Is there no way i can enjoy 7 channel sound of bluray format with these uber avrs? I was thinking to buy a blu-ray player. Will be keeping my avr [donno which one] for few months in our house lobby as I do have no money to buy speaker sets. May be six months down the line I can have a thought. The arcam is currently using paradigm speakers all around and they sound great. I will be using these speakers as of now. Speakers are two signature s8 on both sides of our plasma, one signature C5 below the television, two signature S6 by the side of our couch and two signature s2 behind the couch. Will this speakers be good with the Ubers? My dad will kill me if anything happens to his speakers.:D
 
Excellent comparisions and background info on these monsters.

As a current owner of a DSP-A1, do you have any thoughts on the audio quality differences beween the A1 and the Z9. Looking at the audio section specs in the user manuals they are very similar other than power output, frequency response (FR) bandwidth - though the A1 shows that it is close to flat over 20-20kHz +/-0.5db. I am usually interested in THD, S/N, dynamic headroom, FR and channel separation.

I'd be interested in any listensing comparisions of the analogue vs pure direct modes of these units.

Cheers and thank you!
 
Thanks ranjeetrain for the info. Is there no way i can enjoy 7 channel sound of bluray format with these uber avrs? I was thinking to buy a blu-ray player. Will be keeping my avr [donno which one] for few months in our house lobby as I do have no money to buy speaker sets. May be six months down the line I can have a thought. The arcam is currently using paradigm speakers all around and they sound great. I will be using these speakers as of now. Speakers are two signature s8 on both sides of our plasma, one signature C5 below the television, two signature S6 by the side of our couch and two signature s2 behind the couch. Will this speakers be good with the Ubers? My dad will kill me if anything happens to his speakers.:D

Sudhir, first of all, you have a set of great speakers. You don't need to throw them out just yet. I am wondering what is prompting you for the AVR upgrade?

Most of these AVRs come with whole set of analogue inputs. That is, once they are completely outdated in terms of decoding format, they enter their age of serving as power amp, something for which there is no expire-by date. You can use these AVRs as power amp as long as you want. They are worth buying even for the sake of their power amp section alone.

One option is to buy a bluray player with analogue outputs. But since there aren't too many of them out there, it is advisable to invest in a good decoder capable of decoding latest formats.

Another option, and a good one at that if you can handle it, is to build a media server PC. There are numerous threads on that here on this forum that you can go through for inspiration.

Excellent comparisions and background info on these monsters.

As a current owner of a DSP-A1, do you have any thoughts on the audio quality differences beween the A1 and the Z9. Looking at the audio section specs in the user manuals they are very similar other than power output, frequency response (FR) bandwidth - though the A1 shows that it is close to flat over 20-20kHz +/-0.5db. I am usually interested in THD, S/N, dynamic headroom, FR and channel separation.

I'd be interested in any listensing comparisions of the analogue vs pure direct modes of these units.

Cheers and thank you!

PmakS, it's a common mistake to associate resultant sound quality with technicalities of components. While the technical aspect of the components play a major role in the final resultant sound quality they are not everything.

Two of same AVRs (take any AVR) can sound very different in different setups. A lot depends on what they were paired with, the room where they were set up.

Such a comparison is not easy to do, until someone owns multiple AVRs at the same time and has had the privilege to use them with a lot of speakers at different times. Only then someone can offer a realistic judgement over comparative sound quality.
 
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ranjeetrain I am not throwing the speakers out, those are my dads. I wanted to have an avr for my room, so that I can use it as often I want as much as I want. One I can call my own. My room is quite large [over a thousand feet I believe] and I have a complete Logitech Z5500 5.1 set over there. I want to replace those with my avr and new speakers. My brother will be auditioning the z9 this weekend and he will decide between the onkyo and Yamaha.

I am a PC guy. As such I have asus hdav 1.3 deluxe sound card in my pc which comes with complete 7.1 rca analog outs. Can I connect these outs to my avr? The card has its own bluray player and support PAP so the audio is not downsampled. Thanks bro for all your help.
 
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