Help me to choose between these MEGA MONSTERS!!!

rishiguru

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In the Haze..
For the past year I have been desperately saving money to buy one of those hulking Polk Audio RTi-A9 floorstanders designed to satisfy even the maddest bass freaks like me. I have by now saved just over 50 grand but require patience for some more time to reach 80 grand.

Just when I started dreaming about my RTI-A9s there came a disturbing call from the previous owner of my beloved Yamaha DSP-A2070. Good communication between us resulted in a rare offer to have one of the three rare Top Of The Line MEGA MONSTER A/V amplifiers at an unbelievable price from his audiophile friend commonly known as the The Receiver Guy in their friends circle.

After a day of thinking I finally gave him a call which... well lasted for more than an hour.

His den currently consists of:

1) Denon AVR-5805 [Released: 2006, Cost: $6,000, Weight: 44kg]
2) Denon AVC-A1SRA [Released: 2004, Cost: $4,300, Weight: 29kg]
3) Denon AVR-5308CI [Released: 2008, Cost: $5,200, Weight: 29kg]
4) Marantz SR9006 [Released: 2006, Cost: $4,200, Weight: 26kg]
5) Cambridge Audio Azur 650R [Released: 2010, Cost: $1,800, Weight: 15kg]
6) NAD T-757 [Released: 2011, Cost: $1,600, Weight: 15kg]
7) Yamaha DSP-Z1 [Released: 2003, Cost: $2,800, Weight: 28kg]
8) Yamaha DSP-Z7 [Released: 2010, Cost: $2,700, Weight: 18kg]
9) Yamaha DSP-Z9 [Released: 2004, Cost: $4,500, Weight: 30kg]
10) Yamaha DSP-Z11 [Released: 2008, Cost: $5,500, Weight: 34kg]
11) Sony STR-DA9000ES [Released: 2004, Cost: $4,500, Weight: 28.5kg]

One needs a rack capable to handle 297 kilos to stack all these amps up spending a sum total of $43,100!!! Considering the generous customs duty charge plus freight cost of our country forcing the price to almost double up in India one needs to shell (43,100 X 2) X (INR 50) = INR 43 lakhs to have these babies. Man this is crazy:D

Anyway coming back to the moot point, I am currently offered to have any one of these three:

1) Denon AVC-A1SRA [Original Price: INR 3.9 lakhs, Asking Price: INR 50K, Color: Gold]
2) Yamaha DSP-Z9 [Original Price: INR 4 lakhs, Asking Price: INR 52K, Color: Titanium]
3) Yamaha DSP-Z11 [Original Price: INR 4.5 lakhs, Asking Price: INR 52K, Color: Titanium]

When asked why he is selling only these three models the answer was very simple, he got a pair of each of them one 110 volt version for the American den and the other 230 volt version for Indian den. The rest are all 110 volt versions. He had decided to move to USA and wants to sell the 230 volt versions. He bought AVC-A1SRA and DSP-Z9 in 2007 & DSP-Z11 in 2008. All of them are in immaculate condition and are just 4 to 5 years old.

I need to deicide fast coz he is moving out within a week or so, I have got a week time, and the person talks like a genuine audiophile with heaps of knowledge and technical data to supplement his point. He has promised me an audition of all these three monsters.

My RTi-A9 dream is fainting fast and I am seriously considering to have one of these coz I may never be able to get them at these price point.

When asked about his personal listening experience with each of these, he said all of them are exceptionally well engineered TOTL A/V amplifiers with top notch built quality & having sound quality rivaling separates two times its price. He said if I tend more towards audio than video (60 40) bias having sound quality as my ultimate preference along with power output capability, then DSP-Z9 is the best of the lot followed by AVC-A1SRA. But if I tend more towards video (50 50 bais) then DSP-Z11 will be my best bet.

When asked my favorite question about his pick between these three, the answer was again the DSP-Z9. He said Z9 is the best A/V amplifier Yamaha have ever made till date and is most suited to music playback of all the A/V amps he had ever heard/ owned. He prefers the the Z9's sound in stereo compared with his Music Fidelity A5 integrated stereo amplifier costing $2,500. This puzzles me since his list includes the almighty $6,000 Denon AVR-5805 and also Z-11 which happens to be its successor of Z-9 and generally successors are better than the forbearers.

On request he provided the following tech specs via mail:

Denon AVC-A1SRA

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1) Format: 7.1 channel A/V amplifier
2) Manufacturer Rated Power [20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.05%THD, 8 ohms]: 170 watts X 7
3) Continuous Power [20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.05%THD]:
2-channels
(Driven simultaneously): 8 ohms = 170 + 170 watts, 6 ohms = 200 + 200 watts
4) Dynamic Power:
2-channels (Driven simultaneously): 8 ohms = 190 + 190 watts, 4 ohms = 310 + 310 watts, 2 ohms = 390 + 390 watts
5) THX Certification: Ultra 2 [This receiver passes the 3.2 ohm all channels driven high current torture test mandated for THX Ultra2 Certification.]
6) Power Amplifier Input Fuse Rating: 12A, 250 volts
7) Power Transformer Type: Toroidal
8) Power Transformer Rating: 1200 VA
9) Power Capacitors: Nichicon 33,000uF X 2, 71 volts
10) Power Amp Section: All channels employ discrete complimentary BJT's power transistors
11) Capacitors Used: High quality Japanese capacitors
12) Diodes: Good quality Diodes
13) DAC: 24 bit, 192 kHz Burr Brown PCM1738E with DSD compatibility. Passband Ripple = 0.002 dB, Stopband Attenuation = -82dB
14) DAC Configuration: 7.1 channels use sixteen Burr Brown PCM1738E DACs in a dual-differential configuration. This means using two PCM1738E DACs per channel for better SNR & dynamic range. During stereo mode, D/A converter section is reconfigured to quad dual differential configuration using four DACs per channel to achieve highest transparency & widest dynamic range. These DACs cost INR 343/- per piece and will cost INR 5,488 for those sixteen DACs.
15) SNR: 123db [Dual-differential Configuration]
16) Dynamic range: 123db [Dual-differential Configuration]
17) Pure Direct Mode: Yes
18) Speaker Relays: Good quality relays
19) Volume Control: Highly accurate adjustment in variable steps of 0.5 db
20) Digital Link: Denon Digital Link
21) Speaker Terminals: Not Gold Plated
22) Video: Simple video switching between composite and S-Video with no up-conversion or down-conversion facility.
23) Multi Zone Support: Yes
24) Weight: 29 kgs
25) Price: INR 3.9 lakhs
26) Links: Denon.com, AV-Land

Cons:
i) Should avoid 4 ohm speaker loads.
ii) No video up conversion

Yamaha DSP-Z9

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1) Format: 9.2 channel A/V amplifier
2) Manufacturer Rated Power [20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.015%THD, 8 ohms]: 170 watts X 7 + 50 watts X 2
3) Continuous Power [20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.015%THD]:
2-channels (Driven simultaneously): 8 ohms = 170 + 170 watts, 6 ohms = 215 + 215 watts, 4 ohms = 290 + 290 watts
5-channels (Driven simultaneously): 8 ohms = 150 Wpc, 6 ohms = 180 Wpc, 4 ohms = 220 Wpc
7-channels (Driven simultaneously): 8 ohms = 130 Wpc, 6 ohms = 153 Wpc, 4 ohms = 190 Wpc
4) Dynamic Power: 2-channels (Driven simultaneously):
8 ohms = 210 + 210 watts, 6 ohms = 260 + 260 watts, 4 ohms = 340 + 340 watts, 2 ohms = 580 + 580 watts
5) THX Certification: Ultra 2 [This receiver passes the 3.2 ohm all channels driven high current torture test mandated for THX Ultra2 Certification.]
6) Power Amplifier Input Fuse Rating: 20A, 250 volts
7) Power Transformer Type: Toroidal
8) Power Transformer Rating: 1500 VA
9) Power Capacitors: Nichicon 28,000uF X 2, 80 volts
10) Power Amplifier Rail Voltage: +- 65volts
11) Power Amp Section: All 9 channels are fed with fully balanced audio signal transmission having discrete pair of complimentary BJT's power transistors in a symmetrical drive configuration with complementary FET input stage. This means four power transistors are used per channel rather than two resulting in high current amplification and having balanced output with no signal interference and highest slew rate and balanced clipping.
12) Capacitors Used: Nichicon Gold Tune [Best caps for audio]
13) Diodes: High quality Schottky Barrier Diode for High Gain S/N ratio
14) DAC: 24 bit, 192 kHz Burr Brown PCM1792DBR with DSD compatibility. Passband Ripple = 0.00001 dB, Stopband Attenuation = -130 dB
15) DAC Configuration: 9.2 channels use six PCM1792DBR DACs. It uses differential DAC configuration for the center channel, while the rest uses standard single-ended DAC configuration. These DACs cost INR 1,421/- per piece and will cost INR 8,526 for those six DACs.
16) SNR: 129db/ 132db [Single-ended Configuration/ Dual-differential Configuration]
17) Dynamic range: 129db/ 131db [Single-ended Configuration/ Dual-differential Configuration]
18) Pure Direct Mode: Yes.
19) Speaker Relays: Gold plated relays
20) Volume Control: Highly accurate adjustment in variable steps of 0.5 db
21) Graphic Equalizer: Individual 9 band graphic equalizer for each of the nine channels
22) Tone Control: Digital tone control for front & center channels
23) Digital Link: iLink
24) Speaker Terminals: 24 Carat Hard Gold Plated
25) Video: Video switching between composite/ S-Video & component video with up-conversion upto 720p/ 1080i. Down-conversion facility is also available.
26) Multi Zone Support: Yes
27) Front Panel: 100mm thick extruded aluminum front panel
28) Weight: 30 kgs
29) Price: INR 4 lakhs
30) Awards: In 2004 won the most respected and coveted EISA award --> Best Home Theater High-End Component. Link : EISA Awards
30) Links: Yamaha.com, AV-Land

Cons: Runs hot, very hot due to vertical heat sink positioning and needs ample cooling

Yamaha DSP-Z11

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1) Format: 11.2 channel A/V amplifier
2) Manufacturer Rated Power [20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.04%THD, 8 ohms]: 140 watts X 7 + 50 watts X 4
3) Continuous Power [20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.04%THD, 8 ohms]:
2-channels: 8 ohms = 140 + 140 watts
4) Dynamic Power: 2-channels (Driven simultaneously):
8 ohms = 185 + 185 watts, 6 ohms = 230 + 230 watts, 4 ohms = 290 + 290 watts, 2 ohms = 385 + 385 watts
5) THX Certification: Ultra 2 [This receiver passes the 3.2 ohm all channels driven high current torture test mandated for THX Ultra2 Certification.]
6) Power Amplifier Input Fuse Rating: 15A, 250 volts
7) Power Transformer Type: EI Core
8) Power Transformer Rating: 1200 VA
9) Power Capacitors: Nichicon 27,000uF X 2, 75 volts
10) Power Amplifier Rail Voltage: +- 62volts
11) Power Amp Section: All 11 channels have discrete complimentary BJT's power transistors using current rather than voltage feedback in all channels. This means there is virtually no phase shift resulting in good transient response.
12) Capacitors Used: Nichicon Gold Tune [Best caps for audio]
13) Diodes: High quality Schottky Barrier Diode for High Gain S/N ratio
14) DAC: 24 bit, 192 kHz Burr Brown PCM1796DBR with DSD compatibility. Passband Ripple = 0.0002 dB, Stopband Attenuation = -98 dB
15) DAC Configuration: 11.2 channels use seven PCM1796DBR DACs. It uses differential DAC configuration for the center channel, while the rest uses standard single-ended DAC configuration. These DACs cost INR 343/- per piece and will cost INR 2,401 for those seven DACs.
16) SNR: 123db/ 126db [Single-ended Configuration/ Dual-differential Configuration]
17) Dynamic range: 123db/ 126db [Single-ended Configuration/ Dual-differential Configuration]
18) Pure Direct Mode: Yes.
19) Speaker Relays: Good quality relays
20) Volume Control: Highly accurate adjustment in variable steps of 0.5 db
21) Graphic Equalizer: Individual 9 band graphic equalizer for each of the eleven channels
22) Tone Control: Digital tone control for front & center channels
23) Digital Link: iLink
24) Speaker Terminals: Not Gold Plated
25) Video: Video switching between composite/ S-Video/ component video & HDMI with up-conversion upto 1080p. Down-conversion facility is also available.
26) Multi Zone Support: Yes
27) Front Panel: 100mm thick extruded aluminum front panel
28) Weight: 34 kgs
29) Price: INR 4.5 lakhs
30) Links: Yamaha.com

Cons: Remote control is pain to use and not as easy as Z-9s two remotes.
-------------------

My Personal Thoughts: My personal choice is undoubtedly the DSP-Z11 followed by AVC-A1SRA. I have a good Yamaha A/V amp(DSP-A2070) and is very well acquainted to Yamaha sound signature, so naturally will also love to change ship and go for Denon AVC-A1SRA. On the other hand SQ have the highest preference for me so Z9 can also be great.

Right now I am thoroughly confused and am desperately seeking some solid advice from the respected members to come to a conclusion. Can anybody show some light and help me out?

Thanks in advance!!!
 
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Rishi my choice would be Yamaha DSP-Z11 but there is no doubt that these are truly monsters and its a good deal and its a tuff choice all the best
 
I know nothing about AVRs. But if the deals are really 'once in a blue moon' type, and you have the inclination, buy all three and sell off two of them for some profit. You get both an AVR and your RTIs.
 
according to power specs, Z9 seems better, but Z11 has more features, SQ in Z9 may be better

an audition will be the deal maker

all the best in your selection, seems like you have hit a jackpot
 
Its just like Cyber_cat said.... The 0.015THD of Z9 in comparison to the 0.05 THDs for the other two is probably one of the reasons the Z9 was favored by the seller. but Z11 has albeit the higher distortion rate has more features.. and the THD I dont know if we can feel the difference just by listening. Z11 it should be as per my Audioneubic choice..
 
Rishiguru,

Awesome gear you have got to make a pick from! If HT is important to you, I would say Z9, mainly because it has hdmi inputs, and I guess it would decode HD audio and also do video upscaling( I am not sure, pl correct if wrong).

If you are not into HT so much, you dont have too many HD sources etc and can live with the incovenience of having two cables running for display as well as sound( optical, coaxial) then the Z9 it is.

But then, an audition, could make all the difference. If the step up in SQ with the Z9 is substantial, go with your heart, else stick to Z11.
Whatever it is, I am sure you will have a great amp/avr at your disposal, all the best!
 
Z-11 would be my choice, if you are in HT no doubt you should pick up Z-11. Price quoted is just unbeatable.
best of luck for purchase.
 
as per the info above, denon cant handle 4 ohm loads, I would reject it just for that. my topping tp20 as well as rxv663 can handle 4 ohm loads.
 
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I know nothing about AVRs. But if the deals are really 'once in a blue moon' type, and you have the inclination, buy all three and sell off two of them for some profit. You get both an AVR and your RTIs.

Great plan thatguy. But even if I had the money to buy all three, I can purchase just one.

Well you can purchase all and sell the other two on the forum.

The scenario is that a lot of people are interested in these amps, he did not even use classifieds websites, they will be sold within his friend circle. Now I was the first one to call him and promised to buy one.

Gentleman's words so I will be the first person to audition these three and have the one of my choice, the next person do have make his choice within the remaining two, the last person gets the left over.

according to power specs, Z9 seems better, but Z11 has more features, SQ in Z9 may be better

On the audio front the Z9 has better specs.

If HT is important to you, I would say Z11, mainly because it has hdmi inputs, and I guess it would decode HD audio and also do video upscaling.............If you are not into HT so much, you dont have too many HD sources etc and can live with the incovenience of having two cables running for display as well as sound( optical, coaxial) then the Z9 it is.

As I found out Z9 uses much superior hardware components than the other two:

1) DSP-Z9 is the only Yamaha A/V amplifier in its 100+ years history to adorn a toroidal transformer. As all knows toroidal transformers are way superior than EI Core ones. With Z-11 they reverted back to much smaller EI-Core transformer to save cost.

2) Z-9 have the largest transformer of 1500 watts. 300 watts more juice than the others to the power amp.

3) Amazingly Z-9 being a 9.2 channel amp uses bigger power capacitors than 11.2 channel Z-11. It should be just the opposite. Z-9 has upper hand here.

4) Z-9 have the maximum rated continuous power of all three. 290 wpc @ 4 ohms in stereo mode having dynamic power of 580 + 580 watts @ 2 ohms is just mind blowing for any A/V amp. Also Z-9 can provide continuous power of 190 Wpc in 7.1 channel with all channels driven. Mindbogglingly.

5) Z-9 have highest input fuse rating meaning the power amp section have more muscle than the other two.

6) Z-9's all 9 channels are fed with fully balanced audio signal transmission having discrete pair of complimentary BJT's power transistors in a symmetrical drive configuration with complementary FET input stage. This means four power transistors are used per channel rather than two resulting in high current amplification and having balanced output with no signal interference and highest slew rate and balanced clipping. The design & architecture of the pre and power amp section is superior and more costlier than the other two.

7) Z-9's Burr Brown PCM1792DBR DAC's are over four times costlier than the other two implementation. Though one must put their hats of to the quad dual differential DAC setup of AVC-A1SRA, but still Z-9 have the best SNR, dynamic range and way superior passband ripple & stopband attenuation.

8) Z-9 uses gold plated speaker relays which significantly improves sound quality. The rest two use standard ones.

9) Z-9's speaker terminals are 24-carat hard gold plated for minimum signal transmission loss. The rest two use standard ones.

10) In 2004 won the most respected and coveted EISA award --> Best Home Theater High-End Component. Link : EISA Awards

The Z11 will definitively have much more features, infact it is a network A/V amp. I am pretty sure Z-11 will simply blow the Z-9 out in video related features. Still every LCD/ LED tv supports Z-9's component video. Z-9 is capable of 1080i max, while Z-11 does 1080p and supports HD format.

as per the info above, denon cant handle 4 ohm loads, I would reject it just for that.

Well according to him the Denon is simply great on handling 4 ohm loads in stereo, but in 5.1 or 7.1 formats 6 ohms is the maximum.

Any warranty on these stuff ?? They are already 4-5 yrs old.

Spidey these A/V amps are the top of the line series, when you are shelling out 4 lakhs for an amp you expect it to run without a single hiccup for the next quarter of a century. My Yamaha DSP-A2070 is 19 years old, and still running strong.

an audition will be the deal maker

But then, an audition, could make all the difference. If the step up in SQ with the Z9 is substantial, go with your heart, else stick to Z11.

Yes, I have decided to let my ears & heart rule, audition can take place either tomorrow or day after tomorrow evening. He will confirm.
 
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Both the Denon and Yamaha Z9 are legacy devices and don't have HDMI whereas Z11 has HDMI and HD Audio Decoding.
It doesn't make any sense to go with the other 2 older amplifiers. Z11 is a beast of an amplifier and I would close my eyes and pick it for the price it has been offered. This price seems too good to be true for such an Amplifier as it use to retail for 4+ Lacs and still if a dealer has a left over stock then he is not willing to sell it for anything less than 2+ Lacs. Please do check up the AVR throughly, as if anything is wrong with them then it will cost you more than the paid amount for its repair, specially the HDMI Board.
 
My choice would be the Z-9 if audio is the priority.

If HD decoding is required then of course Z-11.

Not that Denon is a kitten, I have this AVR and I know it is capable of driving a lot of speakers easily.

However it is also important to think about what speakers you plan to pick to match any of these beauties!

So choose wisely and well, for you have to live with it.

Also like you said, let your ears and heart decide. Whatever sounds the most musical to you, should do it.

Vinod
 
Both the Denon and Yamaha Z9 are legacy devices and don't have HDMI whereas Z11 has HDMI and HD Audio Decoding.
It doesn't make any sense to go with the other 2 older amplifiers. Z11 is a beast of an amplifier and I would close my eyes and pick it for the price it has been offered.

Undoubtedly Z-11 is a beast, no arguing on this fact. It is still my fav.

But when an A/V amp like Z-9 gives hi end stereo amps like Musical Fidelity A5 costing INR 2.5 lakhs a run for its money in terms of sound quality, sound-stage, precision & imaging one have to come to conclusion that he is dealing with a ultra special musical A/V multichannel amp with gut wrenching power.
 
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If you want an AVR for stereo audio and occasional movies go for the Z-9.

For movies there is nothing better than the Z11 as it decodes DTS HD master audio and Dolby HD formats and has ample power as well as great surround setup features.

Why dont you buy both the Z9 and Z11. Sell one to me. LOL.
 
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If you want an AVR for stereo audio and occasional movies go for the Z-9

I admit to be more of a musical buff than a movie fanatic. Actually my ratio of Music/ Movies :: 75 / 25

For movies there is nothing better than the Z11 as it decodes DTS HD master audio and Dolby HD formats and has ample power as well as great surround setup features.

I know for the future Z-11 will be better than Z-9 since it decodes HD audio, but in the end during the audition I will close my eyes, listen and go by my heart. The owner said Z-9 also have this amazing 9 channel stereo mode which is simply jaw dropping.

These babies will also be connected to a projector to show their video prowess. I still vote for Z-11.

When asked why he pitched Z-9 & Z-11(which happens to be the newer model) at the same price, he replied whatever Z-9 looses out to Z-11 in terms of HD decoding aspect, it gains two times of that in terms of uncompromising sound quality & power output capability be it 2, 5.1 or 7.1 channel modes, but in the end he will live it upto me to decide.

The reason why he choose to buy these three A/V amps for his Indian destination even he have all of them in USA is because he liked them most from some total 50 top of the line A/V amps he have owned till date!!! Out of them Z-9 is his favorite.

Why dont you buy both the Z9 and Z11. Sell one to me. LOL.

Which one would you choose given the option?
 
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Not that Denon is a kitten, I have this AVR and I know it is capable of driving a lot of speakers easily.

Will you kindly share your experiences with us regarding the AVC-A1SRA.

Sound quality aspects & speaker preferences.

Thanks in advance!!!
 
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