Hi-End Speaker Cables

I don't think that the car analogy applies. because Merc, Audi, etc are not trying to sell us something that only pretends to be more powerful, better made, better-fitted, etc than Maruti, and where the differences are just bling, again, nobody has a problem with saying yes, it's bling, but hey, I chose to buy something with a real rose-wood dashboard (Hey, that's probably more Bentley than Audi, but you know what I mean).

I suppose one could compare, say, noise, vibration, etc. Five hours in an M800 is not going to compare well with five hours in a Merc. You could measure the cabin noise levels, and probably the vibration too, with smart-phone apps: that is not personal.

Similarly, if a cable has a marked effect on frequency response, that is not personal either. It is only personal whether one likes that effect or not.

You can paint your room in different colours, but the paint in that can will always be the same colour. Red walls might make you feel warm and cosy; they make make me feel angry and rant about cables ;) but they are still going to be the same red. Even if we have screwed colour vision, sensation, or we are just learning to talk and saying, "No, Blue," as we point to the walls (an annoying stage in child development :lol:) those walls are still measurably "red."

If you watch the excellent video by JJ Johnston, he keeps repeating, preference is king.
 
That's true.

Once one unwinds the twist of a pair from a CATn cable, strip off the teflon insulation (like I did) and run them as per some other geometry like helix, litz braid or parallel, it is no longer CATn.

What I was trying to convey was that the solid core strands from a CAT6 cable are of good quality, of appropriate size for use as analog audio interconnect, and can be creatively repurposed to suit one's needs.

CAT6, BTW, is used for digital audio, as is without any change, by the Axia Telos Omnia company for carrying digital audio over ethernet cables using proprietary IP-like protocol. It provides amazing flexibility. Other OEMs have started adopting their technology. The advantage of this system is that a single ethernet cable is needed to wire up even a reasonably large studio console (say 24 tracks, though in theory it can support much, much more). If it were done in the analog domain, it would need to be wired up with 2x the number of tracks.

Not opposing your point as studios have high end needs. However, for home needs, $30-$50 products also solve the problem of transcieving audio signals over cat5/6. Such as this one:

Amazon.com: Niles C5A2 CAT-5 Stereo Audio Balun: Computers & Accessories

I see this whole cable business like building a PC or a custom car. If you have grossly mismatched components, then even minor component swaps will cause huge swings in performance. Same goes for an extreme build where you are targeting the last 0.1 percentile performance boost. For ultra performance systems, it usually becomes a "black art" game.

Another analogy I can give is the team that is building google maps or search. They will obsess over trivialities (say, size of the URL) because even a 1 bit saving can mean terabytes of bandwidth saving - at the scale at which they operate. There is a legend in Intel that one of their fabs was performing a bit more inefficient than all the others ( which means hundreds of millions in wastage loss). This fab was near identical to all others, and after exhaustive analysis, they found that the fab had a different coat of paint. Thus their "copy exact" strategy was born that even details out the color and brand of paint.

However, for normal system builders to start obsessing about such minute, one has to ask oneself with honesty, what am I solving for, and in what state is my system? And am I seeing these big swings because of other component mismatches?
 
Blind folded you would not know the difference between a regular 12 AWg copper cable and a snake oil 50K /mtr cable.. on very revealing systems with a willingness to spot the difference..
Interconnects with batteries slapped on them supposedly regulating the dielectric property of sheilding (25K for 0.5 mtr) and good quality interconnects within the range of sanity (2K for 1.5 mtr) would sound the same on a Sim Audio + Joseph audio as they would ona Yamaha + JBL.. only the latter would be much lighter on you pocket..

Weirdest of all "cables are directional" i almost choked and then came the advice on running the cables in or burning in of the cables and how the sound changes for good.. almost had mini stroke..

Please don't let anybody educate you about 'inductance' and 'capacitance' of cables these are the jargons which have been misused or rather abused to make us part with the hard earned money on things that add negligible value to your listening experience..
Go for a decent 700 or max 1000 rupees/mtr copper cable without cutting and joining.. spend your money on good amplification, speakers and source and you will be set..

Looks like you make your assumptions and decisions without having actually tried anything.
 
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Please don't take this personally, just taking your words as an example.

If differences were this pronounced, and many claim that they are, where are the charts? If manufacturers published them, nobody could argue with the extra-bass or exaggerated highs, it would be a matter of measured fact.

Wouldn't it be nice to see one of these reports accompanied by charts? Not that I'm really asking, because most of us probably feel that we have better things to spend our money on than measurement equipment. It's fine for us not to do this stuff, but if the manufacturers, particularly the "higher" (which simply means more expensive) -end manufacturers not do so means they are just selling us mythology. Mythology can, of course, be amazingly powerful stuff.

I really don't go by the charts. I just listen and believe in hearing myself. Given the opportunity, I would spend on Acoustics rather than any other thing in the chain. :cool:

I guess its more about system matching or even maybe given room acoustics.

Different cables have different characteristics for sure. I can hear it at my place and also hear it at many of my friends place. Although I am not saying which is the best cable but one should really try different types of cables and see what suits the best to their system and taste.

Now you will bite me :eek:hyeah: but recently we tried different power cables on a Marantz AVR. All the cables sounded different in Music as well as Movies keeping everything in the system unchanged. Again these cables were not cheap to expensive but more a less same priced stock cables.
 
I've always been amazed that power cables 'could' make a significant noticeable difference when the actual power train for the amplifier involves hundreds ( if not thousands) of Km of HT power lines + several circuit breakers + several transformers of all shapes and sizes + house wiring ( typically very standard fare ) + "mostly ordinary wall sockets" + special expensive plugs! + very expensive 2 meters power cable + connector on amp of unknown quality but certainly NOT very expensive , and internal power supply transformer or a smps.
In this massive chain the puny 1meter or 2 meter cable makes "all the difference" ?
This only means one thing. The wall socket to amp socket just needs good connectors and short cabling with wire that can handle the required current properly and filtered of all RFI.
Did any one check if differences are heard with 0.25 meter cables / 0.5m/1m/2/3m etc ?
The most significant differences could be with RF pickup and possibly internal RF filtering.
Everyone does know (?) that with some amps , differences in sound with exotic power cords appears to be negligible if not completely missing. I would guess, extremely resistant to RFI effects. H-Fi News mag used to provide freq response and distortion of amps going into the several Mhz region. The behaviour of amps was so different from each other in the RF region!

With very good wall sockets , effective RF filters in the amp and low resistance cables I would guess that different cables would not ( should not ?) make any difference.
I might suggest that all wall sockets for hi-fi be replaced with very good quality types ( not less than 15 Amps for lower contact resistance ) and install external high current capable RFI filters. Will be cheaper than exotic cables and probably will result in the biggest improvement you could make in your system wrt the power supply.
I've always pondered about the possibility of lower contact resistance of flat pin sockets compared to round pin sockets. Does anyone have any info ? I must Google this . Never done that so far !
I would guess that industrial grade power connectors are far superior wrt the contact resistance than regular consumer ones.
 
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To those who couldn't hear any difference with cables, you should be thankful. Those extra money can go into your music collection. However, I wouldn't dismiss people who could tell the difference with different cables.

It seems some could tell the difference of 5 microsecond difference in acoustic signal. That is as little as 2mm shift of your head. Even though, whatever delays in the upper frequencies running into the MHz region it seems they do have an influence in the lower audible frequencies. The extensive 5 year research paper was previously discussed in stereophiles and other forums in 2008 or thereabout.

But in the end, whether you could tell the difference or not doesn't matter if you are unable to identify the correct cable in the normal course of listening. That's the reason I stopped chasing cables because the effect is too marginal that a simple speakers movement and room treatment can easily outperform them.
 
This topic is beaten to death every time. So if we stop discussing this, will be good for everyone.
It is proved that if you use the same power cable brand ,you are going to feel the difference even if it is not there any, because human mind behaves in that way.
Thats why double blind tests were performed and result were obvious.
It is true that, one is going to hear the difference and this creates many cable believers in audiophile world. So no point in arguing that, whether cable makes a difference or not, only thing to be considered is , speaker designers and amp designers considered these exotic cables as snake oil and among them is renowned harbeth speaker designer and owner Allan Shaw. Because these people are the real time creator of audiophile equipment and if you look inside any speaker , there are very thin wires of normal copper and aluminium surrounding crossover circuit.
So-
1)Human mind hear difference whether cable is same or different(time and space)
2)Every audio grade cable is same if it is made of oxygen free 99.99% copper purity ranging from 10USD per meter to 1000000USD per meter(Anaconda oil).
Same goes with power cable.
3)Rather than spending on cables , suggestion given by Mr fantastic and Mr. Ambio followed will keep one happy(content) lifetime.
 
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...speaker designers and amp designers considered these exotic cables as snake oil and among them is renowned harbeth speaker designer and owner Allan Shaw....

Alan is yet to prove all amplifiers sound the same. His experiment is flawed to begin with. Instead of 'his' cheaper amplifier conforming to the reference, he chose to limit the true capability of the reference amp to comply with his inferior amp. That is like asking Germany to play football with 3 player against India or Msia's 11 to prove all teams are equal.

Furthermore, his favourite example of voice coil cable size does not answer the possible time alignment issue which answers all the snake oil. 5 microsecond is a very tiny fraction of time difference and it is only the most logical explanation why jitter, cables, vibration control and what not causes the audible difference to the golden ears.

If I were to restart my hobby again, I would still audition several cables before making a choice. Would I look at Belden? No. But I would definitely try Audiocadabra. Sometimes, we are just right even though we cant prove them under DBT.

All my cables were bought in the late 90s. XLOreference, Monster reference, CableTalk and Kimber cable and Audioquest. I have also added Belden, some Chinese brands and now cheap USB cables. When in comes to speaker cables, i have tried DBT for months. Honestly, I couldn't get it right. Once, I was audition the wrong cable for several months without knowing. HOWEVER, in the end I somehow find Audioquest to sound better than the Kimber and China cables. The same thing with Theta Digital, Marantz and Sony SACD player. When the comparison stops then the differences become obvious. .

Get the best within your budget but don't use them as a tool to improve your sound.
 
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Hi Ambio

This is off topic. Since you have the Sound Lab speakers, speak to DukeLeJeune of AudioKinesis. He is quite an authority on Sound Lab. You might find some of his tips useful. Duke also has his own speaker range. He is a believer in the wide dispersion angle of the speakers. He feels it recreates the live feel much better. He, like Earl Geddes, is a strong believer in the reverberant sound field.

If you can, try the JC1 mono blocs power amp with the Sound Lab.
 
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Hi Ambio

This is off topic. Since you have the Sound Lab speakers, speak to DukeLeJeune of AudioKinesis. He is quite an authority on Sound Lab. You might find some of his tips useful.

If you can, try the JC1 mono blocs power amp with the Sound Lab.

Thanks Prem. I am aware of Duke. His opinion was very helpful. Not sure if I want to change my amplifier. The dealer was using Aesthetix Atlas Mono blocks 300W per channel. the bias was set at 12 30. I am using the old Classe Audio stereo 250W perchannel and driving the SL without any problem with the bias set at 9!!! . The dealer was flabbergasted seeing how well the old amp was designed.

JC 1 in Class A mode is outstanding. I really liked it. Unfortunately, when another member was demoing it with loud music the amp went into protection mode. I prefer simple workhorse without all the fancy protection. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
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Please don't let anybody educate you about 'inductance' and 'capacitance' of cables these are the jargons which have been misused or rather abused to make us part with the hard earned money ...
I [dis]agree ;). Actually, I think the education is very important, but only came to that conclusion in recent years, before which I just believed the audiophile marketing.

Let people educate us about these things. They are important, and they can make a difference, but the last person I'd trust to tell me how much difference is a cable salesman. Especially a cable salesman who sells obviously snake-oil prodcuts (Hello Audioquest and your network-cable nonsense!).

Now you will bite me :eek:hyeah: but recently we tried different power cables on a Marantz AVR. All the cables sounded different in Music as well as Movies keeping everything in the system unchanged. Again these cables were not cheap to expensive but more a less same priced stock cables.

I once thought I heard a difference when swapping a power cable :cool:

Of course, the forum member doing the swapping did, and believed that I would, and I had already certainly heard a difference in swapping a power supply.

But, as my signature indicates, and as I have said many times, I believe that we must enquire into the processes of hearing and psychology inside the head.

This topic is beaten to death every time. So if we stop discussing this, will be good for everyone.
It will certainly be good for the cable companies never to be challeged.
It is proved that if you use the same power cable brand ,you are going to feel the difference even if it is not there any, because human mind behaves in that way.
I think it is "proved" that there are many, many reasons why differences are heard between components which have little or nothing to do with the components themselves. I think we need to think beyond the kit.

Thats why double blind tests were performed and result were obvious.
It is true that, one is going to hear the difference and this creates many cable believers in audiophile world. So no point in arguing that,
Yes!
only thing to be considered is , speaker designers and amp designers considered these exotic cables as snake oil and among them is renowned harbeth speaker designer and owner Allan Shaw. Because these people are the real time creator of audiophile equipment and if you look inside any speaker , there are very thin wires of normal copper and aluminium surrounding crossover circuit.

To be fair :cool:... Of those I have I have read, there are some designer/engineers that "believe" in different cables. It is difficult to be dogmatic on this, because, even in following links on the net, one tends to end up reading the same stuff over and over, whereas other stuff might be there too.

But, on the while, basic engineering would seem to be the arbiter, and it is, mostly clear.

How about the idea that the more cables make a difference, the more broken the equipment is? :rolleyes: Ouch. I can hear the screams, but yes, that idea is certainly out there, amongst technically informed people.

1)Human mind hear difference whether cable is same or different(time and space)
The most importand cables are inside your head! :eek:hyeah:

2)Every audio grade cable is same if it is made of oxygen free 99.99% copper purity ranging from 10USD per meter to 1000000USD per meter(Anaconda oil).
Same goes with power cable.
And even "audio grade" is starting on the slippery slope. Audio signals are not nearly as demanding as video cables, let alone stuff that we have to leave the house and look in laboratories and industry for.

3)Rather than spending on cables , suggestion given by Mr fantastic and Mr. Ambio followed will keep one happy(content) lifetime.
:clapping:
Works for me (or would if I had money to spend on audio these days :( ).

After the decades of trying to be an audiophile, I have now come to the conclusion that buying end-to-end transparent is the way to actually be one. More screams, because people so much love the fiddling, but hey,
It is still not a simple path because what is transparent? And what is not? Will the manufacturers tell us? Not when they want to sell us more and more even within their own ranges.

And, when it comes to speakers, even the most hard-line objectivists seem to agree that all bets may be off. We who are never happy just listening to music can still have our experiments and debates over speakers and headphones even if we have the rest of the chain transparent.

Alan is yet to prove all amplifiers sound the same.
His experiment is flawed to begin with. Instead of 'his' cheaper amplifier conforming to the reference, he chose to limit the true capability of the reference amp to comply with his inferior amp. That is like asking Germany to play football with 3 player against India or Msia's 11 to prove all teams are equal.
Looking at another test, Carver tuned his amplifier to win the challenge of making it match, subjectively and objectively, the much more expensive test reference. To me this says two things: one is that all amplifers don't sound the same, because they are not designed to, and the other is that, in the absence of engineered-in tuning or actually faulty design/manufacture, maybe they could.

If I were to restart my hobby again, I would still audition several cables before making a choice. Would I look at Belden? No. But I would definitely try Audiocadabra. Sometimes, we are just right even though we cant prove them under DBT.
I might have been buying business-critical cables from Belden for years, but would it have occurred to me to buy audio cable from them? Never! Until today. Now I realise that it is them, and similar companies that must be doing the genuine $$$million research and development in real labs with real scientists and working on cables on which infinitely greater demands are made than audio signals can make.

This is part of the audiophile myth: people see the requirements of transmitting music signals, analogue or digital, along a cable as being some sort of highly-demanding process, and those cables as being some sort of peak of technological development. It isn't and they aren't.

Another reason I'd now prefer to buy cables from one of the manufacturers like Belden... Will UnicornSeek Cables explain, for instance, what the skin effect is and why it is irrelevant to audio cables? Belden will. And do.

Get the best within your budget but don't use them as a tool to improve your sound.

Bring back tone controls. Cables are not equalisers.
 
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