High costs - any options pls

[ShaQ.Blogs]

What options do i have to buy receiver & amps? I find the cost is pretty high compared to the price in amazon.

This is my first time in building an HiFi system. Any particular shops, or is importing worth considering? What are my best options? Kindly advise.

 

[baijuxavior]

What do you mean by high costs. You should specify your budget as 'cost' is a subjective matter. Then only can someone put answers for your query. you can buy Pioneer VSX-520-K for Rs. 17k from ebay. The y provide 6 months seller guaranty and a stepdown transformer for free.

 

[Imrahn]

U cannot compare Indian pricing with pricing outside....u can get stuff from outside via Ebay Global Easy Buy or other similar sites,who will ship the stuff out from the States to ur home.U will be able to save anywhere from 5k to 10-12k depending on the timing of ur deal and other factors including luck with Customs.But most stuff from US will be running on 120V power source and as such, u will have to shell out another 3-4K for purchasing a 230V-120V Step Down converter for using such devices with our power supply- and u will have no warranty on the product to boot in case of such Imported components.If something goes wrong,u will have to ship it out to the manufacturer in the specific country of purchase for repair at ur own expenditure.

Consider all these factors before going with the Importing route.....if the pricing difference is substantial(say >10k or so), it would be a good choice to get it imported.

 

[afj]

whats your budget / listening habits (movies:music) / room size

 

[akd]

I understand the difficulties of import

custom duties, in case something goes wrong it has to be send to the manufacturer country at the buyer's expense and so on

now what happens when someone buys a stuff from an Indian online store? if it goes wrong how the buyer will get the service? take an example: I buy a speaker of around 40Kgs (pair) from a online store in India and it goes wrong then will that store will come to my office for servicing or I have to send (in that case it will cost me at lest 5K for a 40Kg parcel) it to the store? if its the second one which is reality then I am afraid to ask what is the "buyer protection or interest" involved in this whole exercise.

As I am not comfortable with these issues I hesitate to buy online something which is not only intricate but weighs significantly high

 

[thatguy]

and u will have no warranty on the product to boot in case of such Imported components.If something goes wrong,u will have to ship it out to the manufacturer in the specific country of purchase for repair at ur own expenditure.

Wait. We are talking about importing products which are also available in India (the OP is comparing the Indian prices vs the Amazon ones). If the brand has a servicing agency in India, shouldn't they be able to repair the equipment in case of problems? Besides, how much warranty do Indian dealers give anyway? 1 year? That hardly sounds like hassle-free to me. You pay the same repair charges after the first year.

If you see a real price advantage, I would say go for it. Don't let the scare tactics get in the way. There is one dealer member who writes posts about how the sound quality deteriorates if you use a step down transformer. As if the generators used by his grid generate electricity at 220 Volts.

 

[ckn]

Quite some time ago there was a mention of the phone nos/contacts of 'couriers' who can get you the AV equipment from places like Singapore (which is a haven for pre-owned equipment). Does anyone know one of those guys or point me towards the relevant post? It is in here somewhere but I dont know how to quite search for it. I have used it before- spoken to the guy who was out of Chennai if I recall correctly- tho' did not complete the process as I did not end up buying the stuff.
What he had told me was that I dont need to pay him- just buy the stuff at the shop in Singapore (Adelphi mall) and tell him so and so would collect. Surprisingly, the shop owner knew all about it and was ready. So it appears to be a well oiled machinery.
Does anyone have any contacts on this matter?
Thanks.
ckn

 

[venkatcr]

Wait. We are talking about importing products which are also available in India (the OP is comparing the Indian prices vs the Amazon ones). If the brand has a servicing agency in India, shouldn't they be able to repair the equipment in case of problems? Besides, how much warranty do Indian dealers give anyway? 1 year? That hardly sounds like hassle-free to me. You pay the same repair charges after the first year.

Most of brands have a policy of not encouraging servicing outside the country where the product is purchased. Not only in the first year, but even afterwards, they will not even look at your equipment if you have not purchased it in India.

If you see a real price advantage, I would say go for it. Don't let the scare tactics get in the way. There is one dealer member who writes posts about how the sound quality deteriorates if you use a step down transformer. As if the generators used by his grid generate electricity at 220 Volts.

If you understand how electricity works, it is not only the voltage, but also the alternating cycle that does have an effect. Step down transformers can change your voltage from 220 to 110, but they can never change your cycle from 60Hz (or cycles) to 50Hz. Most product sold in the US have to be very competitively priced, and manufacturers do not expect the product to be used outside the US/Canada. So the products are manufactured to work only in that environment.

Products such as mobile phones and other such small products use very little power and therefore manufacturers provide universal adaptors that can take anywhere between 100-250 volts and both 60 or 50Hz. But amplifiers, players etc., have high power requirements, and making universal power supplies for such equipment is expensive.

Cheers

 

[thatguy]

Most of brands have a policy of not encouraging servicing outside the country ...

I have gotten Sony/Panasonic/Apple products purchased in US repaired in India. You would want to call up and use a line like "I had brought this equipment when I moved back to India ..." before importing to see if you can get repairs done (if it bothers you). If you got the money and they can do it, they will.

Step down transformers can change your voltage from 220 to 110, but they can never change your cycle from 60Hz (or cycles) to 50Hz.

Most audio electronics, AFAIK, works on DC. Audio amplifers/receivers, especially the heavy ones which use a transformer/rectifier type power supply, will simply feed the AC into a step-down transformer with the output going to a bridge rectifier and then to a low pass filter. The output DC voltage does not depend on the input frequency.

My 35 year old B&O receiver can work on 110, 130, 220 or 240 volts and 50 or 60 Hz. If newer equipment can't, it is not the cost (just a few more turns on the primary of the transformer), but more about retarded corporate policies.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

There might be audio equipment that does get affected by the AC frequency. But for amps or receivers (especially the ones using transformer/rectifier type power supplies), I wouldn't bother. The only reason I wouldn't buy 110 volts equipment is the need for another box and the possibility that I might blow it up if I pushed the plug into 220 volts mains socket.

Products such as mobile phones and other such small products use very little power and therefore manufacturers provide universal adaptors that can take anywhere between 100-250 volts and both 60 or 50Hz. But amplifiers, players etc., have high power requirements, and making universal power supplies for such equipment is expensive.

The universal power supplies that you see around you are all switched type. There are reasons (I am not an expert, but Google will answer most of the queries) why switched power supplies are not used in audio equipment, but it is definitely not because of cost. If cheap laptops and computers can use it, I am sure it shouldn't be expensive for audio equipment.

 

[ravi_d]

If you understand how electricity works, it is not only the voltage, but also the alternating cycle that does have an effect. Step down transformers can change your voltage from 220 to 110, but they can never change your cycle from 60Hz (or cycles) to 50Hz. Most product sold in the US have to be very competitively priced, and manufacturers do not expect the product to be used outside the US/Canada. So the products are manufactured to work only in that environment.

@venkatcr
How does a voltage selector switch work on some of the integrated amps. Most subwoofers have have that voltage selector switch.
Here is a rear pic of Arcam FMJ A38 Integrated amp.
This Roksan amp the voltage spec is given a 230V 50/60 Hz.

Thankfully India has the same voltage spec as the place I'm in now. I can move the stuff I use here to India with out any second thought.

EDIT: To add to the above the rail voltage is going to be DC and I believe all other components work on DC. So when the Voltage is converted to DC what effect does the frequency of input AC voltage have? How does it matter if the input AC frequency is 50Hz or 60Hz?

 

[venkatcr]

I have gotten Sony/Panasonic/Apple products purchased in US repaired in India. You would want to call up and use a line like "I had brought this equipment when I moved back to India ..." before importing to see if you can get repairs done (if it bothers you). If you got the money and they can do it, they will.

Just try that trick with Onkyo, Denon and such companies. Many of us have tried and have been sent back. Sony/Panasonic are mass market products and the servicing is outsourced to third parties who do not care. Even these companies will only repair a few models (mostly max 2 or 3 years old).

Dell, when I took my laptop, asked me 15,000 just to look at my laptop. They will not service your laptop unless you have an annual maintenance contract. company policies differ.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

How does a voltage selector switch work on some of the integrated amps. Most subwoofers have have that voltage selector switch.

The conversion from one voltage to another is done by a transformer. You can build a transformer that can take in 220 volts, and tap it at a different point to accept and convert 110 volts also. That is what the switch does. Changes the tapping point in the transformer.

EDIT: To add to the above the rail voltage is going to be DC and I believe all other components work on DC. So when the Voltage is converted to DC what effect does the frequency of input AC voltage have? How does it matter if the input AC frequency is 50Hz or 60Hz?

The transformer is designed and made for a particular frequency in the AC. In general, a using a 50Hz system in a 60Hz environment will not matter much. But the other way is dangerous. For one, the transformers inside the units are small and highly efficient. The number of primary turns in the transformer is just enough for the specified frequency. There is hardly any room for tolerances. If the correct voltage and frequency is not supplied, the transformer will saturate and heat up.

A transformer designed for 60Hz will draw more idle current.

When the core starts getting saturated, it will be subject to stray magnetic flux and electrical noise. This will be transferred to the amplifier as noise. In addition, in worst cases, you can also hear the transformer inside the unit 'growling'. All these are dangerous for the power supply as well as the unit in general. In extreme cases, the power supply could become hot enough to explode.

Power supplies inside amplifier use a capacitor to compensate for the AC rectification cycle. If the capacitor, and the related circuitry are designed for 60Hz cycle, a 50Hz input will not be able to charge the capacitor at the required frequency. In general, though this may not matter much, in high powered transformers, when there is the need for high in-rush currents, the capacitor will be emptied quickly, and may not have enough power to feed the next amplification stage.

Unfortunately you can only step-down 220 to 110 volts. Nothing can be done for the AC frequency. It is always better to use a power transformer designed for a particular voltage and frequency combination.

Cheers

 

[hemantwaghe]

Most of brands have a policy of not encouraging servicing outside the country where the product is purchased. Not only in the first year, but even afterwards, they will not even look at your equipment if you have not purchased it in India.

Are you referring Entertainment products or all electronics??
As HP ,Apple ,WD ( and many other PC,Hardware brands) used to give /currently giving GLOBAL WARRANTE and honor service ,from wherever you bought. Many DOES NOT ask any invoice. Have first hand experience of HP, also it was one of the reasons of Apple Ipod was not picking up in official channels ( Do not know situation now)

 

[anm]

you can always get hold of an engineer who works for these audio companies. He can repair your stuff, at YOUR house.

 

[ravi_d]

The conversion from one voltage to another is done by a transformer. You can build a transformer that can take in 220 volts, and tap it at a different point to accept and convert 110 volts also. That is what the switch does. Changes the tapping point in the transformer.



The transformer is designed and made for a particular frequency in the AC. In general, a using a 50Hz system in a 60Hz environment will not matter much. But the other way is dangerous. For one, the transformers inside the units are small and highly efficient. The number of primary turns in the transformer is just enough for the specified frequency. There is hardly any room for tolerances. If the correct voltage and frequency is not supplied, the transformer will saturate and heat up.

A transformer designed for 60Hz will draw more idle current.

When the core starts getting saturated, it will be subject to stray magnetic flux and electrical noise. This will be transferred to the amplifier as noise. In addition, in worst cases, you can also hear the transformer inside the unit 'growling'. All these are dangerous for the power supply as well as the unit in general. In extreme cases, the power supply could become hot enough to explode.

Power supplies inside amplifier use a capacitor to compensate for the AC rectification cycle. If the capacitor, and the related circuitry are designed for 60Hz cycle, a 50Hz input will not be able to charge the capacitor at the required frequency. In general, though this may not matter much, in high powered transformers, when there is the need for high in-rush currents, the capacitor will be emptied quickly, and may not have enough power to feed the next amplification stage.

Unfortunately you can only step-down 220 to 110 volts. Nothing can be done for the AC frequency. It is always better to use a power transformer designed for a particular voltage and frequency combination.

Cheers

@venkatcr
Thanks for the explanation.

To put it in other words avoid those 110V 60Hz equipment to use it in India using an external step-down transformer. Or stick to those which has voltage selector option.

 

[venkatcr]

Are you referring Entertainment products or all electronics??

Let me say this. I have hand first hand experience with Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, and Dell. If you remember, I had taken up the Onkyo case up to the VP in Japan, and he unequivocally said they will only support in the country of purchase. Even Denon and Yamaha asked the question of where it was purchased and refused to look at the unit as they were not purchased in India.

I have taken many Panasonic/Pioneer units (telephones, recorders, 2-in-1s, etc.) and have always returned disappointed with lack of parts. Sony could not even repair a brand new radio cum clock, though they tried their best.

Cheers

 

[no1lives4ever]

The transformer is designed and made for a particular frequency in the AC. In general, a using a 50Hz system in a 60Hz environment will not matter much. But the other way is dangerous. For one, the transformers inside the units are small and highly efficient. The number of primary turns in the transformer is just enough for the specified frequency. There is hardly any room for tolerances. If the correct voltage and frequency is not supplied, the transformer will saturate and heat up.

A transformer designed for 60Hz will draw more idle current.

When the core starts getting saturated, it will be subject to stray magnetic flux and electrical noise. This will be transferred to the amplifier as noise. In addition, in worst cases, you can also hear the transformer inside the unit 'growling'. All these are dangerous for the power supply as well as the unit in general. In extreme cases, the power supply could become hot enough to explode.

Power supplies inside amplifier use a capacitor to compensate for the AC rectification cycle. If the capacitor, and the related circuitry are designed for 60Hz cycle, a 50Hz input will not be able to charge the capacitor at the required frequency. In general, though this may not matter much, in high powered transformers, when there is the need for high in-rush currents, the capacitor will be emptied quickly, and may not have enough power to feed the next amplification stage.

Unfortunately you can only step-down 220 to 110 volts. Nothing can be done for the AC frequency. It is always better to use a power transformer designed for a particular voltage and frequency combination.

Cheers

The above part about 60Hz power supplies being different from 50Hz was an eye opener for me.

Going from what you have written here, I would hazard to guess that this would apply only to equipment which have a high power consumption. Namely amplifiers, and this would also include integrated amps and receivers.

I still clearly remember the big red sticker on my Denon AVR that mentioned that the warranty was not valid if the equipment was used with a Invertor. My dealer even confirmed that he had a few cases of Denon AVRs blowing up when used with a invertor and the company denying warranty when the same was detected. The receiver also does not have any input voltage selector. So I would advice people to perhaps in general stay away from Denon products designed for 60Hz operation in India. The transformers on these units may be more sensitive than others. Or maybe the transformers in these units are just not capable of handling the modified square wave output of the typical home inverters found in India.

I have seen many audio products that use a transformer in their power supply have a 110V/220V selector. What kind of a power supply will these units have? Or are there ways to build a system such that both the transformers and the capacitors are capable of handling both 60Hz and 50Hz input?

I suppose any piece of equipment that uses a SMPS would not be affected by the 50Hz/60Hz issue you describe above. Although these days almost all equipment and power supplies which use SMPS have multi frequency multi voltage inputs, mostly this is a non issue. But then most computer power supplies are not multi-voltage and I have never faced any issue with a step down transformer when running any computer equipment with a SMPS.

I would also wonder how this situation affects components like CD Players, DVD players, etc which do not draw a whole lot of power and where the power consumption is mostly at a steady rate unlike with power amplifiers.

Over the years I have used tons of equipment rated at 110V 60Hz with a step down transformer. Some of these were guitar processors and I have never noticed any sound quality issues with the guitar processors. But then I have never used any amplifiers or AV receivers with a step down transformer.

Now if anyone has equipment that is sensitive to the input power quality, a easy method would be to spend some cash on a good quality online sine wave UPS that outputs a stable 110V 60Hz output. I doubt if any high quality online UPS will have issues with being connected to a 50Hz input power source. Most of these high grade online UPSes are designed for handling bad input power and online UPS will always start with a AC to DC conversion stage.

-- no1lives4ever

 

[abhi]

Just try that trick with Onkyo, Denon and such companies. Many of us have tried and have been sent back. Sony/Panasonic are mass market products and the servicing is outsourced to third parties who do not care. Even these companies will only repair a few models (mostly max 2 or 3 years old).

Cheers

I beg to differ, I got my denon receiver repaired at profx even though it was not purchased here and its over 5 years old. They guy asked me where was it bought, I said it was bought abroad. He took it for repair.

 

[dillihifi]

I have seen many audio products that use a transformer in their power supply have a 110V/220V selector. What kind of a power supply will these units have? Or are there ways to build a system such that both the transformers and the capacitors are capable of handling both 60Hz and 50Hz input?


-- no1lives4ever

Well I am also in the same quandary. As you have pointed out I also have the same question what kind of power supplies are present in these kind of units which run at both the frequencies. There is either a voltage selector (have found this feature in low cost electronics as well as in high end brands) or the power supplies are auto sensing.

Here how does the equipment handle the different frequencies ? Perhaps they designed to run on both frequencies ? Do they have separate paths for the power supplies including the caps ?

 

[captrajesh]

A nice article on power rectification.