I2S : A Dedicated Thread

[IndianEars]

The USB card is Very Interesting.

Bought locally or imported ?

Price ? (when i go to the price tab on the site, it hangs)

 

[rsjaurr]

I ordered it from shenzenaudio and paid $170 plus shipping.
I wanted to try cheaper one first before moving to sotm or other but found it to be very good and as per my requirements listed in the previous post.

 

[drkrack]

I totally agree with firearm12's comment: "All said pls dont have notion that any dac with i2s input will will be better that those without. Select a dac first which can sound appealing to you. I2s is secondary. I2s should not be sole reason to get a dac."

It would be like putting the Cart before the Horse .....

To Moderators, I intend a total of 3 posts ....this is the second. < Moderator edited to 2 to improve readability>

Since each post will address a different topic and posts 2 & 3 are long, I would prefer that they be preserved as 3 separate posts rather than being telescoped into a single, tedious post.


I2S, AES/EBU, SPDIF, TOSLINK & USB INTERFACES FOR DIGITAL AUDIO
Let me attempt to clarify on the different interfaces, with a bird's eye view, and without getting very technical.

A DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) receives Digital Data for 2 separate (stereo) Audio Channels.

As an example, a CD mechanism will read (off the CD) 16 Bits of Info, 44,100 Times per second, for each channel ie 16 x 44,100 x 2 = 1.4112 MegaBits (Million Bits) per second. This data is fed to the DAC which needs to
1. Receive the Data
2. Told if its receiving the Left or Right Channel Data
3. Receive a Clock signal which acts like an orchestra Conductor, synchronising all the Data.


I2S INTERFACE
The I2S interface provides separate wires for each of these and a Ground wire. Hence 4 separate wires are used in the i2S interface to convey data to a DAC.

The I2S interface is the UNIVERSAL Internal interface for all DACs.
Since it is primarily an internal interface, its signals were never designed to be carried over long lengths of wire of from 1 box (transport) to another (DAC).

Long wire lengths with their inductance & capacitances will corrupt the digital signals.

Also running 4 wires externally is in-elegant and difficult if circuit impedances are to be maintained.

AES/EBU
The Audio Engineering Society (AES) jointly with the European Broadcast Union (EBU) standardised a THREE WIRE Interface, for external interconnection of digital signals.
All the data signals are jumbled up (multiplexed) onto just TWO wires. The third wire is ground.

SPDIF
Sony & Philips (the Joint inventors of the CD) went a step further and developed the Sony Philips Digital InterFace (SPDIF) that jumbles up (multiplexes) all the digital signals onto a SINGLE Wire carrying the signal, with the second wire (the Shield of a Coaxial Cable) being the ground. SPDIF was designed for 16/44 data transmission used in CDs

TOSLINK
TOshiba & Sony invented a low cost, suitable for mass manufacture, Optical interface that can be thought of as the optical equivalent of the SPDIF Interface.
Instead of the Electrical Digital 1s & 0s, and LED Blinks On and Off. These blinks of light are transmitted via a low cost transparent Plastic cable over distances of 5 m to 10 meters.

USB
With the widespread use of computers in digital audio, it became necessary to adopt a common computer interface for use with digital Audio & DACs.
The Low cost and widely used, 4 wire USB-1 / USB-2 interface was adopted.
The Digital Signal is adapted to be carried over a USB interface which uses 2 wires for Data and 2 wires for the Positive & negative DC power.

SUMMARY
As one can instinctively conclude, carrying all signals via their separate wires (I2S) is the best. But I2S was never designed for any reasonable length of wire. Taking special care, it can be reliably transmitted over approx.. 30 cms or 1 foot, but even that is not Easy.

AES/EBU Digital jumbles the signal, over 2 signal wires. In this respect, it is certainly worse than I2S.

SPDIF takes the Matter to the Extreme, jumbling all signals over a single wire.

TOSLINK is the optical equivalent of the SPDIF interface but provides electrical isolation between the sending and receiving boxes.

USB processes the digital signal, for carriage on 2 separate Data wires..... However, so much work and technology (e.g., Asynchronous Transmission) has gone into the USB interface that today it is the most widely used digital audio transmission interface. Also, USB-2 is capable of Very high speed data transmission, far higher than any Digital Audio signal today. Hence the USB interface has emerged as a defacto standard.

Thanks a lot for Taking time to write down such an elaborate explanation. It clears lots of things.
I2s using RJ45 socket seems like more easily configurable option, Getting a Source or USB to I2S converter seems VFM.

The DAC I am considering is Denafrips Terminator and I would be looking to buy A DDC like Hermis or Gaia as a Next Upgrade. Terminator already has a good USB DAC as far as the reviews go, but i2s is supposed to be having a edge over USB. The DDC will work as USB to i2s converter and i will try to source the required cables from Denafrips if feasible.
Let's see.
Any other inputs from people already using i2s route and their personal experience will be valuable.

 

[rsjaurr]

@drkrack My dear friend here are my two cents

1. Terminator already has very good USB implementation as per the available online information. So there is no need of a expensive DDC. Invest that money in good source.

2. Add little bit more money to the cost of Terminator and GAIA and you can get a dCS Bartok. This will be a much better DAC, will provide future upgrades via softwares, has an Ethernet port and so will work as streamer and Roon end point, act as preamp for all the digital sources so no need of separate preamp, very good mosaic app for music playback and streaming services and above all this will reduces the clutter on your audio rack.

If you remember I too was going this route of adding a DDC but IMO it is not worth it to keep on adding boxes to your setup.

Think about it.

 

[hydra]

The USB card is Very Interesting.

Bought locally or imported ?

Price ? (when i go to the price tab on the site, it hangs)

I think the Matrix USB Card is available in India now. I've seen it listed online.

 

[IndianEars]

Thanks, for that input, Hydra. Appreciate

 

[drkrack]

you remember I too was going this route of adding a DDC but IMO it is not worth it to keep on adding boxes to your setup.

I remember it Clearly, I have used Cxn V2 as DDC between Macbook and Qutest, and the result was pretty good. Later on, Whatever I have used ; be it M2tech Evo interface, Or Allo Kali Piano Reclocker Set up, Allo Digione Signature Streamer with Reclocker, or ifi iPurifier 2/3 with Reclocker, I have been Fairly Convinced that Adding a DDC or a Dedicated Clock improves the SQ by many folds, in spite of the DAC being Average.

Hadn't Terminator Materialized, I was actually looking for Mscaler to pair up with Qutest DAC, So the Part of adding a DDC, Gaia / Hermes or something else with Terminator as a next upgrade is quite certain as of now. I don't have the budget for Dcs or MSB (MSB comes with a built in Reclocker if I'm not Wrong) currently, maybe later.
A DDC with a better Clock and i2s & Bnc output capabilities will be added next.

Terminator already has very good USB implementation as per the available online information. So there is no need of a expensive DDC. Invest that money in good source.

Yes, A better source is a good option too, but I couldn't find anything under 1.5L to resolve better than my MacBook running audirvana. Will definitely be looking in to it. Just wishing that Denafrips releases a Streamer Transport

DAC, will provide future upgrades via softwares, has an Ethernet port and so will work as streamer and Roon end point, act as preamp for all the digital sources so no need of separate preamp, very good mosaic app for music playback and streaming services and above all this will reduces the clutter on your audio rack.

I am skeptical about Digital Preamp idea, I haven't found them fare very well in preserving dynamics. A better tube preamp (over Freya +) maybe for another upgrade.

reduces the clutter on your audio rack.

We're anyways going into separates so the clutter is inevitable ; I might look into something like Hegel H390 with DAC and Streamer on board & a great integrated amplifier overall, if simplification is decided. Who knows, I might end up with something like that.

Thanks a lot for very valuable inputs and a friendly concern, I will keep this thread updated.

 

[drkrack]

Finally Got Hands on a Pre-owned Denafrips Terminator DAC ; The USB input is simply incredible, Fully Enjoyable as standalone. Transparent, Highly Resolving, with Great Soundstage, Yet Maintains the Musical Signature ; One of the best DACs I've owned. I sincerely doubt how much more the DDCs or I2s input will improvise it further. Anyways I'll keep looking for a Good USB to I2S converter or a better Source /Streamer that has a compatible i2s output option.

 

[drkrack]

How DDCs improve the sound? Useful video

 

[drkrack]

Finally I2S happened...
it was worth the wait. I Upgraded to PI2AES Board from USA directly, Connected to my RPI4/4GB SBC to PI2AES with micro SD loaded with Ropieee XL OS. Pi2AES has Plethora of digital outputs that any DAC can support but the New version doesn't have the RJ 45 type of I2S connection, only HDMI type configuration.

Hiccups
I sought to Power the RPi4 separately with 5V LPSU & connected everything and (bought a 19V Laptop power supply to power Pi2AES HAT) No sound, RPI is detected but HAT Not showing up .
After a while a realized I had Removed the wrong Jumper!
Corrected it , but still HAT Not showing up, Read somewhere that you need upwards of 24V Power the newer Pi2AES board. Bought 24V Power supply and HAT is Recognized Everything is working , Except I2S input to Terminator , all others working. All Outputs from Pi2AES are Assigned as Same output on Roon so changing various digital outputs is Simple.
The I2S via HDMI on Pi2AES by default is configured to be compatible with PSAudio DAC config, whereas the i2s of Denafrips DACs needs to changed to (1,1,1) mode to make it work with Pi2AES. There is Guide in the Denafrips Terminator Manual to set it to any config you want. I Changed that but No Sound only Distortion tried various Combinations like (0,1,1, or 0,0,0 etc) but only distortion. Changed to basic HDMI cable that came with Bluray Player, instead of premium Braided one from MX and Immediately Sound is Back. Though M. Kelly of Pi2AES mentioned any routine HDMI Cable should work, not all will work I suppose.

Sound
Summary of SQ from Highest to Lowest : HDMI I2S > AES > BNC > Mac MINI M1 USB
Initially BNC Sounded way better than USB via Mac Mini M1, in fact it was much better than Allo USB Signature, Allo Digi Pro Signature versions I had used previously. Absolutely no Background Noise, Pitch dark silent Background which sounds clearly awesome. Used analog XLR cable for Digital AES Connection and it sounded much better than BNC output, better resolution, wider Soundstage with Meatier tonality.
When Changed to HDMI I2S , The resolution and detail retrieval is at a different level altogether. As far as AES Goes I2S is way better. Separation is great, Music is more fluidic without a hint of digital Glare or brightness. Very Lively as much as the Analog systems sound, with the ease of digital setup. this is the best SQ I have heard with my DAC in My setup. No Over emphasis on any freq, no Veil , Even the Poorly recorded tracks sound decently detailed. The Insight into the music via I2S input is just incredible & incomparable to any other inputs. Changed to Costlier DHIVIS hdmi cable and it did improve the overall SQ by a Tiny bit, but definitely not worth the 10 times price difference between basic and premium HDMI Cables. I have ordered basic smaller than 50cm HDMI cables as advised by many; Lets see how it goes. Overall I am quite happy with SQ improvement.
Next upgrades in the pipeline are 24V LPSU to Pi2AES and will explore better I2S cable .

I did Listen to Denafrips Hermes DDC and Terminator DAC at a friends setup using I2S connection between Hermes and Terminator and it sounded quite awesome ( Totally at a much higher level of SQ upgrade over regular USB input to Terminator), people who don't want the hassles of Pi2AES board configuration should consider adding a DDC to their DAC , and upgrade to I2S capable DAC if Possible.

 

[jai1611]

@drkrack which 24v supply did you get?

 

[drkrack]

@drkrack which 24v supply did you get?

Generic one (not branded), power brick similar to the one supplied with laptops.
24v and 2.1A (Costed 800Rs) capabilities

 

[rsjaurr]

@drkrack Good that you really liked that setup and I hope you keep it for a very long time.
Folks usually prefer I2S over USB and it came as no surprise.that you liked I2S over other inputs.

 

[lithiumnk]

Finally I2S happened...
it was worth the wait. I Upgraded to PI2AES Board from USA directly, Connected to my RPI4/4GB SBC to PI2AES with micro SD loaded with Ropieee XL OS. Pi2AES has Plethora of digital outputs that any DAC can support but the New version doesn't have the RJ 45 type of I2S connection, only HDMI type configuration.

Hiccups
I sought to Power the RPi4 separately with 5V LPSU & connected everything and (bought a 19V Laptop power supply to power Pi2AES HAT) No sound, RPI is detected but HAT Not showing up .
After a while a realized I had Removed the wrong Jumper!
Corrected it , but still HAT Not showing up, Read somewhere that you need upwards of 24V Power the newer Pi2AES board. Bought 24V Power supply and HAT is Recognized Everything is working , Except I2S input to Terminator , all others working. All Outputs from Pi2AES are Assigned as Same output on Roon so changing various digital outputs is Simple.
The I2S via HDMI on Pi2AES by default is configured to be compatible with PSAudio DAC config, whereas the i2s of Denafrips DACs needs to changed to (1,1,1) mode to make it work with Pi2AES. There is Guide in the Denafrips Terminator Manual to set it to any config you want. I Changed that but No Sound only Distortion tried various Combinations like (0,1,1, or 0,0,0 etc) but only distortion. Changed to basic HDMI cable that came with Bluray Player, instead of premium Braided one from MX and Immediately Sound is Back. Though M. Kelly of Pi2AES mentioned any routine HDMI Cable should work, not all will work I suppose.

Sound
Summary of SQ from Highest to Lowest : HDMI I2S > AES > BNC > Mac MINI M1 USB
Initially BNC Sounded way better than USB via Mac Mini M1, in fact it was much better than Allo USB Signature, Allo Digi Pro Signature versions I had used previously. Absolutely no Background Noise, Pitch dark silent Background which sounds clearly awesome. Used analog XLR cable for Digital AES Connection and it sounded much better than BNC output, better resolution, wider Soundstage with Meatier tonality.
When Changed to HDMI I2S , The resolution and detail retrieval is at a different level altogether. As far as AES Goes I2S is way better. Separation is great, Music is more fluidic without a hint of digital Glare or brightness. Very Lively as much as the Analog systems sound, with the ease of digital setup. this is the best SQ I have heard with my DAC in My setup. No Over emphasis on any freq, no Veil , Even the Poorly recorded tracks sound decently detailed. The Insight into the music via I2S input is just incredible & incomparable to any other inputs. Changed to Costlier DHIVIS hdmi cable and it did improve the overall SQ by a Tiny bit, but definitely not worth the 10 times price difference between basic and premium HDMI Cables. I have ordered basic smaller than 50cm HDMI cables as advised by many; Lets see how it goes. Overall I am quite happy with SQ improvement.
Next upgrades in the pipeline are 24V LPSU to Pi2AES and will explore better I2S cable .

I did Listen to Denafrips Hermes DDC and Terminator DAC at a friends setup using I2S connection between Hermes and Terminator and it sounded quite awesome ( Totally at a much higher level of SQ upgrade over regular USB input to Terminator), people who don't want the hassles of Pi2AES board configuration should consider adding a DDC to their DAC , and upgrade to I2S capable DAC if Possible.

I'm using supra 50cm hdmi cable with good results.
Try doing 5v psu mod for pi2aes. 24v LPS not reqd. Various Linux distros also affect the sound.
I'm using pi2aes with rpi4 8gb running gentooplayer/audiolinux in ramroot. One can also use hqplayer embedded on pi2aes. Customizations are endless.
Btw, pi2aes & downstream component synergy matters.

 

[jmascreen]

Finally I2S happened...
it was worth the wait. I Upgraded to PI2AES Board from USA directly, Connected to my RPI4/4GB SBC to PI2AES with micro SD loaded with Ropieee XL OS. Pi2AES has Plethora of digital outputs that any DAC can support but the New version doesn't have the RJ 45 type of I2S connection, only HDMI type configuration.

Hiccups
I sought to Power the RPi4 separately with 5V LPSU & connected everything and (bought a 19V Laptop power supply to power Pi2AES HAT) No sound, RPI is detected but HAT Not showing up .
After a while a realized I had Removed the wrong Jumper!
Corrected it , but still HAT Not showing up, Read somewhere that you need upwards of 24V Power the newer Pi2AES board. Bought 24V Power supply and HAT is Recognized Everything is working , Except I2S input to Terminator , all others working. All Outputs from Pi2AES are Assigned as Same output on Roon so changing various digital outputs is Simple.
The I2S via HDMI on Pi2AES by default is configured to be compatible with PSAudio DAC config, whereas the i2s of Denafrips DACs needs to changed to (1,1,1) mode to make it work with Pi2AES. There is Guide in the Denafrips Terminator Manual to set it to any config you want. I Changed that but No Sound only Distortion tried various Combinations like (0,1,1, or 0,0,0 etc) but only distortion. Changed to basic HDMI cable that came with Bluray Player, instead of premium Braided one from MX and Immediately Sound is Back. Though M. Kelly of Pi2AES mentioned any routine HDMI Cable should work, not all will work I suppose.

Sound
Summary of SQ from Highest to Lowest : HDMI I2S > AES > BNC > Mac MINI M1 USB
Initially BNC Sounded way better than USB via Mac Mini M1, in fact it was much better than Allo USB Signature, Allo Digi Pro Signature versions I had used previously. Absolutely no Background Noise, Pitch dark silent Background which sounds clearly awesome. Used analog XLR cable for Digital AES Connection and it sounded much better than BNC output, better resolution, wider Soundstage with Meatier tonality.
When Changed to HDMI I2S , The resolution and detail retrieval is at a different level altogether. As far as AES Goes I2S is way better. Separation is great, Music is more fluidic without a hint of digital Glare or brightness. Very Lively as much as the Analog systems sound, with the ease of digital setup. this is the best SQ I have heard with my DAC in My setup. No Over emphasis on any freq, no Veil , Even the Poorly recorded tracks sound decently detailed. The Insight into the music via I2S input is just incredible & incomparable to any other inputs. Changed to Costlier DHIVIS hdmi cable and it did improve the overall SQ by a Tiny bit, but definitely not worth the 10 times price difference between basic and premium HDMI Cables. I have ordered basic smaller than 50cm HDMI cables as advised by many; Lets see how it goes. Overall I am quite happy with SQ improvement.
Next upgrades in the pipeline are 24V LPSU to Pi2AES and will explore better I2S cable .

I did Listen to Denafrips Hermes DDC and Terminator DAC at a friends setup using I2S connection between Hermes and Terminator and it sounded quite awesome ( Totally at a much higher level of SQ upgrade over regular USB input to Terminator), people who don't want the hassles of Pi2AES board configuration should consider adding a DDC to their DAC , and upgrade to I2S capable DAC if Possible.

@drkrack how did you addressed the swapped channel in pi2aes over i2s?

 

[Smadhu]

@drkrack how did you addressed the swapped channel in pi2aes over i2s?

You will have to play around with the I2S setting on the DAC. The setting depends on the Hdmi Cable, streamer/DDC and DAC. In my case, Pontus ii with I2S setting of 1,1,1 the channels were swapped, whereas 1,0,1 works fine with PI2AES. However, do try out various configuration of I2S to suit yourself.

It is easier to check the correct channels with other digital connections like coax, optical etc, to ensure the rest of the connection is fine. Thereafter try various settings of I2S.

 

[drkrack]

@drkrack how did you addressed the swapped channel in pi2aes over i2s?

You need to change the channel config in DAC (1,1,1 worked for Termi) & if doesn't work try changing to other (than recommended) permutations and combinations.

Overall , once you hear i2s its pretty tough to go back to USB.

 

[jmascreen]

You will have to play around with the I2S setting on the DAC. The setting depends on the Hdmi Cable, streamer/DDC and DAC. In my case, Pontus ii with I2S setting of 1,1,1 the channels were swapped, whereas 1,0,1 works fine with PI2AES. However, do try out various configuration of I2S to suit yourself.

It is easier to check the correct channels with other digital connections like coax, optical etc, to ensure the rest of the connection is fine. Thereafter try various settings of I2S.

You need to change the channel config in DAC (1,1,1 worked for Termi) & if doesn't work try changing to other (than recommended) permutations and combinations.

Overall , once you hear i2s its pretty tough to go back to USB.

Thanks @Smadhu @drkrack default was 000 in pontus ii and i have changed it to 111 and now its working as expected. I am using a ordinary 5foot long hdmi cable will a shorter one make any difference, if so any suggestions?

 

[krishnan.s]

All said pls dont have notion that any dac with i2s input will will be better that those without. Select a dac first which can sound appealing to you. I2s is secondary. I2s should not be sole reason to get a dac. Denafrips dacs are considered top of the line dacs these days that are value for money. I2s only helps in transfer between transport and dac where it minimizes jitter. Good quality streamer and good dac will have more impact than just having i2s.

One recommendation from my side for streamer would be sotm sms ultra neo. you can upgrade in future with their power supply and even external clock. Hans bekhuyzen on YouTube says this combo is the highest quality that he has ever listened to. It would output usb to you dac. You can even upgrade to connect to it to a ddc (which reclocks the usb input amd then connects via i2s to dac) and external clocks to ddc. Once you move into this category, clocks become of paramount importance. Mutec ref 10 is one revered external 10 mhz clock that will transform your system for ever. But before all that a good dac would go a long way. Sorry if i confused you.

Hello @drkrack, I have the exact setup mentioned above except the DDC.

- Network Transport - SOTM SMS200-ultra, sCLK-OCX10 - powered by Uptone Audio JC-2 Linear Power Supply
- DAC - DENAFRIPS Terminator

I have ordered for the DENAFRIPS GAIA DDC, that I am expecting soon. After a lot of reading, I have decided to go with i2s between GAIA DDC and DAC.

Here are my listening impressions using the external SOTM sCLK-OCX10. Please note, I go by my ears and not scientifically measured.
The clock makes a profound impact on the overall musicality. The blacks are prominent, the hearing fatigue (generally from digital sources ) comes down a lot. That could partially because of the DENAFRIPS Terminator, which is a very analog sounding DAC.

Like others suggested, go one step at a time. Choose the DAC. You need to like the tonality of the DAC, the other components merely help in cleaning up the source signal of any jitter.

Good luck!

 

[Smadhu]

Thanks @Smadhu @drkrack default was 000 in pontus ii and i have changed it to 111 and now its working as expected. I am using a ordinary 5foot long hdmi cable will a shorter one make any difference, if so any suggestions?

I am currently using Blue Jeans HDMI cable 1 foot. I compared with other longer generic cables and I definitely preferred the shorter Blue Jeans. I have also ordered Sommer Cables - Excelsior bluewater which is Alvin's recommendation. Let's see how it fares in comparison with the shorter length Blue Jeans HDMI.