Inner Groove Distortion

[stevieboy]

Surprisingly, this topic has not come up on the forum so far so here goes. What's the deal with IGD for you guys? Do you have some form of inner groove distortion or does the last track play as beautifully as the first.

I'm having distortion ranging from sibilants on vocals mainly to a mild sort of compression of sound. The sibilants can be cured greatly by aligning and tweaking azimuth, but I cannot get rid of the slightly compressed sound. I think I need new longer cartridge screws cos the current ones barely fit the nuts on top, tightening them reduces the sibilants. And yes, even the amount of tightness of the screws I can hear differences in sound.

The other problem is perhaps the stylus needs to be replaced. When I first started realigning with the MintLP, I saw that the cart was skewed a bit angling downwards to the right from front view. Maybe this damaged the needle? Or is that not possible?

Am thinking of trying with a spare cart tonight and see if I can cure the problem.

Thoughts, suggestions, comments pleeeeeese!

Regards

 

[sachu888]

Surprisingly, this topic has not come up on the forum so far so here goes. What's the deal with IGD for you guys? Do you have some form of inner groove distortion or does the last track play as beautifully as the first.

I'm having distortion ranging from sibilants on vocals mainly to a mild sort of compression of sound. The sibilants can be cured greatly by aligning and tweaking azimuth, but I cannot get rid of the slightly compressed sound. I think I need new longer cartridge screws cos the current ones barely fit the nuts on top, tightening them reduces the sibilants. And yes, even the amount of tightness of the screws I can hear differences in sound.

The other problem is perhaps the stylus needs to be replaced. When I first started realigning with the MintLP, I saw that the cart was skewed a bit angling downwards to the right from front view. Maybe this damaged the needle? Or is that not possible?

Am thinking of trying with a spare cart tonight and see if I can cure the problem.

Thoughts, suggestions, comments pleeeeeese!

Regards

Hi,
I don't have IGD on both my TTs Technics and Micro Seiki.I have aligned my cart using two point protractor (Stevenson) from Vinyl engine.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[murali_n]

Hi all,

I had IGD, when I aligned my Shure M97xE in parallel with the headshell, but later it disappeared after I aligned with the supplied protractor (Baerweld model if I am not wrong). Now there is no inner grove distortion, earlier there were some. This protractor is very simple and effective.

N.Murali

 

[sachu888]

Hi all,

I had IGD, when I aligned my Shure M97xE in parallel with the headshell, but later it disappeared after I aligned with the supplied protractor (Baerweld model if I am not wrong). Now there is no inner grove distortion, earlier there were some. This protractor is very simple and effective.

N.Murali

Hi,
Yes Shure protractor is a universal Baerwald design with null points at 66.0 and 120.9 mm from the centre.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[omishra]

I also do not face this issue on my technics. I aligned tone arm height correctly. Also cartridge is set using Stevenson Protractor as mentioned by Sachin. Quoting excerpts from his email.

Download Stevenson Protractor from here -
Cartridge Alignment Protractors | Free Turntable, Tonearm & Cartridge Tools | Vinyl Engine

How to use two point protractor Setting Cartridge alignment using a Two Point Protractor - bkearns - Vinyl Asylum

Align your cartridge with the above protractor,make sure protractor measurement(180mm) is correct.

 

[Hiten]

stevie, yes some vinyl tracks near the lable dont sound good while other have no problems. I think it is related to higher mid and high fqs. I read elliptical stylus helps.
Some of the songs I like are near the lable so I get a compilation/hits album for that song (Hindi). and I guess one can't get rid of IGD completely.

 

[sachu888]

stevie, yes some vinyl tracks near the lable dont sound good while other have no problems. I think it is related to higher mid and high fqs. I read eleptical stylus helps.
Some of the songs I like are near the lable so I get a compilation/hits album for that song (Hindi). and I guess one can't get rid of IGD completely.

Hi Hiten,
I can't hear any IGD on any of my Tts.I think its more of an alignment problem.I am using elliptical stylus though.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[Hiten]

sachin, yes probably because of elliptical stylus .
Not sure but IGD is due to slower speed of inner groves and high fqs. compacted more densely, so I guess its physical limitation which produces IGD.

 

[prem]

I cannot hear any inner groove distortion and i use a fine spherical tip. So i guess its more alignment dependent.

 

[mahiruha]

Hi Steven,
Well this IGD ( good name btw) problem has its existence for sure but I never really understood what it is. The way I tackle all my cartridge related issuues is by using HFN 002 | A Review of the HiFi News Test Record | Vinyl Engine
and just see if I am hearing what I expect to hear according to the guide. My thinking behind this is whenever I set up cartridge it has to pass a standard and the test lp precisely offers that. It may be the case that the cartridge may not perform optimally with certain records but in those case I have to believe that something wrong with the groove of that record which might have occurred due to improper playing conditions.
Thanks.

 

[Hiten]

Yes Prem and Sachin, you both could be right. And Problem could be both alignment and physical limitations. (Will have to dug out articles from google and post) As cutting engineers usually take in to account this limitations (They equilize accordingly as they proceed to the inner grooves) a properly aligned setup will have least distortion so one may not hear them.

 

[sandeepmohan]

A few reasons for this.

The general condition of the stylus tip. If its on its last legs, this can happen.

My next point depends entirely on the way we use our record players. Some leave the lid open and play. Rega does say that this can contribute to better sound in certain conditions. I do not know what these conditions are. In our country, there is just no way you can isolate dust. When we start to play a record, the stylus tip is nice and clean. By the time it reaches the inner most track, there is every possibility of dust getting collected on the stylus. This can cause a drop in sound quality. The sound can get muffled a bit.

The quality of the pressing. The sound quality of a record can only be as good as the quality and condition of the pressing machine that is used. The cut of a record also depends on the pressing machine which cannot do as good a job towards the inner groove as it does on the outer tracks.

 

[jls001]

Thanks for introducing me to a new vinyl terminology:lol:

But seriously, the most likely cure is to use the universal Baerwald two-point chart available in vinylengine. Loosen the cartridge a bit so that you can adjust its position, check alignment at both points, and you should be getting much better sound.

Does your arm have azimuth adjustment? If yes, you can check that as well. Hiten had prescribed a very simple and effective rig for that: plug phono pre's output to input of computer's sound card and record the output (use Windows Sound Recorder available from Accessories --> Sound). Save as wav file, and import it to Audacity (available free from sourceforge). Check the left and right levels. Make adjustment to taste.

This may sound dumb but do check the distance of the stylus tip to arm pivot point. If this is wrong, it would be very difficult to align to the two Baerwald points. So this is a pre-requisite to using a Baerwald.

Another fairly dumb suggestion is to try different value of antiskate setting which does not match the cartridge tracking weight. The antiskate mechanism may no longer work as designed and probably needs a little offset. And antiskating is most needed in the inner grooves.

Lastly, try increasing cartridge tracking force to the upper side of the recommended range. My personal experience is that it tracks truer with higher setting. And some say higher tracking force is better for the diamond than lower.

 

[stevieboy]

Yuhoooooooooooo )))))


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[sachu888]

Thanks for introducing me to a new vinyl terminology:lol:

But seriously, the most likely cure is to use the universal Baerwald two-point chart available in vinylengine. Loosen the cartridge a bit so that you can adjust its position, check alignment at both points, and you should be getting much better sound.

Does your arm have azimuth adjustment? If yes, you can check that as well. Hiten had prescribed a very simple and effective rig for that: plug phono pre's output to input of computer's sound card and record the output (use Windows Sound Recorder available from Accessories --> Sound). Save as wav file, and import it to Audacity (available free from sourceforge). Check the left and right levels. Make adjustment to taste.

This may sound dumb but do check the distance of the stylus tip to arm pivot point. If this is wrong, it would be very difficult to align to the two Baerwald points. So this is a pre-requisite to using a Baerwald.

Another fairly dumb suggestion is to try different value of antiskate setting which does not match the cartridge tracking weight. The antiskate mechanism may no longer work as designed and probably needs a little offset. And antiskating is most needed in the inner grooves.

Lastly, try increasing cartridge tracking force to the upper side of the recommended range. My personal experience is that it tracks truer with higher setting. And some say higher tracking force is better for the diamond than lower.

Hi,

Baerwald can be used on any tonearm,but it may not be the most accurate for exp. Technics arm is more close to Stevenson geometry.Actually it depends on distance between pivot to spindle/effective length of tonearm.You can choose the best protractor for your arm if you know effective length/pivot to dist. of your tonearm.Vinylengine has Tonearm Alignment Calculator.
Vinyl Engine - Tonearm Alignment Calculator

Stevenson protractor - "a variation on Lfgren geometry optimized for low distortion at the inner groove at the expense of increased distortion elsewhere. compared to Baerwald or Lfgren B you will get lower distortion for the last few mm of the record" - Vinylengine

Regards,
Sachin

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the replies. They all helped but perhaps not in the way you'll intended . Let me explain.

Regarding all the protractors yes I have downloaded them before but now I have a MintLP protractor that's custom made for my tonearm and tonearm spindle so protractor issue is out. It's extremely well regarded and is far more accurate than a paper print out which might have spindle hole differences and other issues. Also the MintLP protractor is made with the inner null point just as the last track begins so its optimised for inner groove play.

Second the stylus was not collecting dirt at inner grooves cos all my LPs are clean.

Antiskate I have only three settings and nothing worked. Not even increasing the tracking force.

Gut feel and experimenting said none of these were the issues.

But what all your answers indicated and reinforced was that setup is darned easy. So there was really only three answers left, I had suspected three issues: one was the cart screws, a bit too short and tightening these was affecting the sound positively to a degree, the other suspect was the cart itself and the third was azimuth, but azimuth should not be causing me so much trouble. So took out the Sumiko and screwed in the Ortofon OMB5E spare I have spent an hour or so on setup and mmmmmmmm all last track issues I've been hearing poof!

So thanks guys! :cheers: to the brotherhood of vinyl nuts here! :clapping:

Guess I'll be digging out the Blue Point Evo now for a retip. Will let the Blue Point lie for a while punished in the corner. Bad boy.

 

[stevieboy]

Does your arm have azimuth adjustment? If yes, you can check that as well. Hiten had prescribed a very simple and effective rig for that: plug phono pre's output to input of computer's sound card and record the output (use Windows Sound Recorder available from Accessories --> Sound). Save as wav file, and import it to Audacity (available free from sourceforge). Check the left and right levels. Make adjustment to taste.

Joshua,

The problem with these and the other azimuth ways seem to be cartridge channel imbalance which will skew the recorded sound file. Bkearns on audioasylum? had posted a way of double checking to rule out crosstalk and channel differences to get a truer azimuth reading. I'll try finding it tomorrow and post it here.

Regards

 

[stevieboy]

A few reasons for this.

The general condition of the stylus tip. If its on its last legs, this can happen.

Turned out to be the case Sandeep! Thanks for getting me to look at what I did not want to believe hehe

Regards


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[stevieboy]

Hi Steven,
Well this IGD ( good name btw) problem has its existence for sure but I never really understood what it is. The way I tackle all my cartridge related issuues is by using HFN 002 | A Review of the HiFi News Test Record | Vinyl Engine
and just see if I am hearing what I expect to hear according to the guide. My thinking behind this is whenever I set up cartridge it has to pass a standard and the test lp precisely offers that. It may be the case that the cartridge may not perform optimally with certain records but in those case I have to believe that something wrong with the groove of that record which might have occurred due to improper playing conditions.
Thanks.

Hi Mahiruha!

Good to see you active now and again

Well my thinking is test records offer unreal conditions eg a single frequency whereas usual music has many frequencies thus groove shape will differ. So the test standard itself differs from normal records. However this is armchair theorizing. Intend to get that test lp one day to see

Regards


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[sandeepmohan]

Second the stylus was not collecting dirt at inner grooves cos all my LPs are clean.

I did not mean collecting dust only at the inner groove. What I meant was, when you start to play a record and by the time the stylus reaches the inner groove/track, there could be dust collected on the way, assuming you are playing the entire record without skipping any tracks. In all this time, dust can fall on a playing record. It does take a while for the stylus to reach the inner track on a 33rpm record. A simpler approach & something you could try, start your record playing at the inner groove.

Now that you have identified that it could be the condition of the stylus itself; how long have you had the other stylus sitting on the head shell?

Your most Welcome. It is nice to know that my suggestions were of some use.