Integrating Mains vs Center

[Love4sound]

Dear FM’s

As the title suggests what do you recommend for the best movie experience? I am calibrating and setting delays based on rew measurements. I have a dual sub set up with rythmik LV12F. I managed to calibrate both the subs and align them to give a good response. Now the next difficult part is integrating it with the speakers. Now if I experiment with different delay values and say for value 15 I get the best response for mains but the Center for the same value gives a poor response. Now if I set a value say 17 which gives better response for Center but the mains for the same value gives a poor response. So I now need to choose integrating the sub with either mains or the Center. Kindly suggest.

Regards

 

[ajuvignesh]

I would choose mains as most of the bass to the subwoofers are stripped from mains.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Dear FM’s

As the title suggests what do you recommend for the best movie experience?

Center, which carries the vast majority of content for movies.

 

[Love4sound]

I would choose mains as most of the bass to the subwoofers are stripped from mains.

Center, which carries the vast majority of content for movies.

Hahaha now even more confused. Well guess I will note both values and test few sequences using my ears. So how did you both arrive at this conclusion?

 

[ajuvignesh]

Hahaha.
My choice is fronts because the center's bass response is limited compared to fronts. Most of the bass comes from LFE and Fronts. Hence to get a smooth crossing over of bass from front speakers to subs, I chose fronts as my answer. I could be wrong too.

 

[Love4sound]

Hahaha.
My choice is fronts because the center's bass response is limited compared to fronts. Most of the bass comes from LFE and Fronts. Hence to get a smooth crossing over of bass from front speakers to subs, I chose fronts as my answer. I could be wrong too.

Ok. So did you use random values and ears to arrive at delay values or used rew?

 

[RajithKumar]

Dear FM’s

As the title suggests what do you recommend for the best movie experience? I am calibrating and setting delays based on rew measurements. I have a dual sub set up with rythmik LV12F. I managed to calibrate both the subs and align them to give a good response. Now the next difficult part is integrating it with the speakers. Now if I experiment with different delay values and say for value 15 I get the best response for mains but the Center for the same value gives a poor response. Now if I set a value say 17 which gives better response for Center but the mains for the same value gives a poor response. So I now need to choose integrating the sub with either mains or the Center. Kindly suggest.

Regards

I used to do with Center speakers which is the most active & important speaker in a HT system.

 

[ajuvignesh]

Ok. So did you use random values and ears to arrive at delay values or used rew?

Mine is a basic yamaha AVR and I don’t think it has delay function.

 

[mbhangui]

Mine is a basic yamaha AVR and I don’t think it has delay function.

For Yamaha, go to the Cinema DSP settings and you will find it.

 

[Love4sound]

Mine is a basic yamaha AVR and I don’t think it has delay function.

I have used yamaha yht 299. Every AVR will have this option. I guess you are confused. Delay is nothing but the distance values you set in avr for speakers and subwoofer

I used to do with Center speakers which is the most active & important speaker in a HT system.

Ok. Just wondering why every youtube tutorials always advice only on integrating the mains

 

[ajuvignesh]

For Yamaha, go to the Cinema DSP settings and you will find it.

Okay. I will check. Thanks.

I have used yamaha yht 299. Every AVR will have this option. I guess you are confused. Delay is nothing but the distance values you set in avr for speakers and subwoofer

Ok. Just wondering why every youtube tutorials always advice only on integrating the mains

Yes it has distance values which automatically sets the delay. There is no way we can manually control the delay other than changing the distance. Yes. Even the basic DVD player has distance settings. Gotta dig through the cinema dsp as said by mbhangui to check if the delay is the right one.

 

[mbhangui]

Okay. I will check. Thanks.


Yes it has distance values which automatically sets the delay. There is no way we can manually control the delay other than changing the distance. Yes. Even the basic DVD player has distance settings. Gotta dig through the cinema dsp as said by mbhangui to check if the delay is the right one.

Your avr must have come with a microphone. Just connect it to the microphone in and follow the on-screen instructions.

The cinema dsp options are for fine tuning various dsp setting presets that are there (hall in munich, hall in vienna, chamber, etc). But the basic setting is to first use YPAO and then fine tune the distance/level configuration.

Here is an easy to understand tutorial

 

[ajuvignesh]

Your avr must have come with a microphone. Just connect it to the microphone in and follow the on-screen instructions.

The cinema dsp options are for fine tuning various dsp setting presets that are there (hall in munich, hall in vienna, chamber, etc). But the basic setting is to first use YPAO and then fine tune the distance/level configuration.

Here is an easy to understand tutorial

Mine is a basic model and doesn't have YPAO. I used my ears and rew to fine tune the sound. as a person who watches movies once in a blue moon, don't want to invest on a new AVR till this yamaha is around.
Thanks for the video.

 

[Love4sound]

Yes it has distance values which automatically sets the delay. There is no way we can manually control the delay other than changing the distance. Yes. Even the basic DVD player has distance settings. Gotta dig through the cinema dsp as said by mbhangui to check if the delay is the right one.

Changing the distance is only called as delay settings. Even in my Denon avr there is only distance settings available and there is no individual settings for delays. Distance and delay settings,both are same in avr. Dsp settings has nothing to do with delays.

 

[mbhangui]

Changing the distance is only called as delay settings. Even in my Denon avr there is only distance settings available and there is no individual settings for delays. Distance and delay settings,both are same in avr. Dsp settings has nothing to do with delays.

My avr has DSP settings for delay (in milliseconds) which are totally different from the speaker distance/level settings. These timings adjust the apparent room size.

 

[Love4sound]

My avr has DSP settings for delay (in milliseconds) which are totally different from the speaker distance/level settings. These timings adjust the apparent room size.


View attachment 66774

Ok as u said this seems like some dsp related settings and not the actual delay settings between each channels. I am talking about the delay settings you set to integrate your mains and Center with subwoofer. In Marantz and Denon there is no such settings available.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Delay is always done in ms. AVR settings are simplified for ease of use for mainstream users. Speed of sound is often termed as 1125 ft/sec, this differs based on medium and temperature etc. In this example 10 feet would be about 0.0089ms of delay. Delay in ms, and Phase in degrees is the standard for audio.

To answer the thread question, if you have a center and if you are using it for movies, and if your system is configured correctly then most of the audio will come through the center, as such it makes sense to use the center vs the left/right for optimum settings if one has to choose. Ideally of course all speakers (5/7 etc) should be integrated but this is not an easy task and usually people must live with compromise. In this case it is best to focus on center first, then left/right then other channels as the circumstances permit.

 

[imagineer]

@Love4sound , this might a useful tip (talks about delays, phase and crossover)

Calculating group/time delay for a sub

Humor me for a moment. There's a thread currently running on phase/time coherency/alignment. Part of the discussion concerns offsetting drivers for time/phase alignment. If you had a separate subwoofer, is there a way to find the correct offset/placement distance relative to the mains so that...

www.avsforum.com

The speed of sound varies slightly with altitude and temperature but I'll use 1120 feet/sec. At that speed of sound a 100 Hz crossover frequency has a wavelength of 11.2 feet (1120/100). And 5 feet of that wavelength is 160 degrees or (5/11.2)*(360) = 160. So for a sub/sat crossed at 100hz a 5 feet difference from the listening position will give you 160 degree shift. If you had continually variable phase alignment on your subwoofer you would set it to 160 degrees.

Note: I have not used REW, neither I fully understand how those phases can be configured.
Just thought, it might be useful.

 

[Love4sound]

Note: I have not used REW, neither I fully understand how those phases can be configured.
Just thought, it might be useful.

Normally I also don’t use REW for integration but randomly set delay values and experiment using my ears playing many bass heavy sequences and choose the best sounding value. But doing that caused loud noise damage to my ears a year back so I stopped that method and depending on rew measurements.

 

[imagineer]

Normally I also don’t use REW for integration but randomly set delay values and experiment using my ears playing many bass heavy sequences and choose the best sounding value. But doing that caused loud noise damage to my ears a year back so I stopped that method and depending on rew measurements.

As of now, I've configured my system using Audyssey and curve editor.
Is it worth to go REW path?
Also, the quoted link descends further as any HiFi thread goes.
Help me understand this bit:
How do you configure 160 degrees phase shift? (Same example from that link)