Is A.R.Rehman that great?

Hai all,

A lot of activity in my absence.
For the record, Ilaiyanila Pozhigirathe from Payanangal Mudivathillai.

As told by SPB:

Recording started at 7AM after rehearsals with the troupe. The Lead guitarist could not play the Guitar parts in one stroke , since the song was to be recorded live. IR was in the console and was teaching the notes to the player. Raja could play the parts with ease, but the Guitarist was struggling. Finally after lot of practice they could complete the song by 2-00 PM.
Raja has himself claimed that the Guitarist was one of his very best and is one among the 3 people in his troupe who could play his notes without any practice or rehearsals.

Rest is history. The Song was a super hit and one among the very best of SPB

N.Murali.
 
Glad you got back to this thread, Murali_n. Would you like to open a new thread dedicated to Ilayaraja's gems and discussions on the same?

I would dearly love to see if there can be more people who can experience the Ilayaraja magic.
 
Hai vortex,

I will certainly, but before that I think I need to do some homework, i will definitely start the thread when I am equipped.

N.Murali.
 
Hai vortex,

I will certainly, but before that I think I need to do some homework, i will definitely start the thread when I am equipped.

N.Murali.

Murali,
Please do! Pretty please! Though I have listened to many great songs tuned by the maestro, I know there are scores of old tamil songs by him which I have not had the good fortune of listening to!
 
Today while watching cricket I saw some promos of the upcoming AB film Paa and I really liked the tune. I checked in the net I saw Ilyaraaja is the music director. Would love to get the cd as soon it releases. Is it made from any south Indian film ???
 
Hi,

Raja has given new meaning to the word melody.This song is only a small example. KJ simply sizzles.Even guys who are not familiar with Tamil can enjoy this melody.


cheers,
sri

I feel like getting married right away ... :licklips:. Whats the actress'es name? Do you have her Dad's phone number? :)
Edit: PS: Should I buy the mangalsutra first or the grapes? .... :)

Cheers
 
I feel like getting married right away ... :licklips:. Whats the actress'es name? Do you have her Dad's phone number? :)
Edit: PS: Should I buy the mangalsutra first or the grapes? .... :)

Cheers

Amala is an old sensitive actress, ya she is cool, but not meant for a hot strapping lad like you!

if you have read the article (in the post by evanoruvan) you will see that she retired from cinema 16 years ago = at least 38 now = old enough to be your mother's younger sister.

So, while Amala may be looking for greener pastures in the shape of a young handsome gobble, you might do well to look for fresh chattel.

cheers
 
hahaha Gobble and suri You guys are making me laugh like mad.:lol:

Like the above poster said she is much married to the telugu superstar and yesteryear hero Nageswara Rao's son Nagarjuna.He has done some hindi flicks too. Yes Amala was a sweet looking heroine in her days.She was a dance student of Kalakshethra , the famous Bharataha Natyam school of chennai.I think she is a child of Irish mother and Bengali father.She was introduced by our indomitable T Rajendar the master of all arts.

But Gobble, all this is not going to help you in any way.She may well be you chithi as suri has said:D

cheers, and here is wishing you to get a lookalike Amala as your bride.:)

sri
 
Asit - I look forward to your thoughts on the music of the film score 'Cheeni Kum'.

I had another question as well. You mentioned that while Indian classical had more melody to it, Western Classical had more harmony. Pardon my ignorance but I could not make much sense of that. I thought harmony contributed towards melody. Is that not right? Or are there more layers underneath?
 
Hi,

I had the same doubt and when i googled i found this.


The Difference Between Melody and Harmony

Edit: According to the above explanation Raja's song 'poomalaye thol sera vaa' where the male voice and female voice sing in diff pitches and still compliment each other may be an example. But i don't know really.May be people from chennai who know better may confirm if this right or not.


cheers,
sri
 
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Hi all,

Sorry again for not being able to participate more actively, for the reasons stated previously. The installation will go on for most of the week.

Firstly, let me say a few things very briefly about melody and harmony. I think you guys have mixed up harmony with harmonics. Harmonics are very useful for melody.

Harmonics:
Every musical note is actually a superposition of several frequencies. There is a fundamental frequency f (what is usually denoted as the freq of the note), but along with comes a host of frequencies which are integer multiples of the fundamental frequency. So the 2nd harmoic has a freq 2f, 3rd is 3f, and so on. An unmusical sound (for example a dog's burking, or even a human being with a harsh voice) will also consist of several frequencies with a fundamental, however, this time the other frequencies will not be harmonics or integer multiples of the fundamental frequency.

Now I'll explain why two notes may sound pleasing together (the case of harmony) or when taken in succession (in the case of melody). Say we have the frequency of Sa (called the tonic, or in our lingo the Sadaja) as f. Now, since this is a musical sound, it'll have higher harmonics and they will be 2f, 3f, 4f and so on. Now higher octave Sa by definition has a frequency 2f. The higher harmonics of the higher octave Sa are then 2x2f, 3x2f, 4x2f, ... , that is, 4f, 6f, 8f, ... etc. or all even harmonics of the lower octave Sa (the so-called tonic). This is the reason why these two notes (with fundamental frequencies f and 2f, also called the madhhya Sa and the tara Sa) when taken together or taken in succession of each other sound good (that is, not out of tune).

Extend the above logic. Take a note with fundamental frequency 3/2 f (called the Panchama or just Pa, belonging to the middle octave or the madhhya saptaka). Now you see that its upper harmonics are 2x3/2 f, 3x3/2 f, 4x3/2 f, ... that is, 3f, 9/2 f, 6f , .... . So you discover that all the even harmonics of the note called Panchama has the same frequencies as all the 3rd harmonics of the note Sa. That is why when the notes Sa (abbreviated as S) and Pa (abbreviated as P) are taken together or taken in succession, they also sound quite good (that is, in tune), This is called the first-fifth relation in Western music. Generally it's also called a consonance relation. We call it the Samvada relation. You may have heard Indian musicians calling two notoes as Samvadi to each other, for example S-P, r-d, R-D, g-n, G-N, M-S^, m-r^, P-R^, d-g^, D-G^, n-M^, N-m^ or P_-R, D_-G are all examples of the consonance/samvada/1st-5th relation (My notation here is the following:- S :Sa, r: komal Rishav, R: shuddha Rishav, g: komal Gandhar, G: shuddha Gandhar, M: shuddha Madhhyam, m: teevra Madhhyam, P: Pancham, d: komal dhhaivat, D: shuddha Dhhaivat, n: komal Nishad, N: shuddha Nishad: in addition the ^ symbol next to any note means that it's in the upper octave or tara saptak, and the _ symbol next to any note means that it's in the lower octave or the Mandra Saptak, otherwise all notes are in the middle octave or madhhya saptak). If you divide any freq by 2 it comes down by an octave, and if you multiply any freq by 2, it goes up one octave.

Similarly S-M is also a consonance relation (known as the 1st-4th in the Western world). Notice, it's not really a new relation. M-S^ is actually a 1st-5th relation.
You will find by simple algebra of ratios that this M has a frequency of 4/3 f if S has a freq of f.

So far we have found the ratios 2/1 (octave/saptaka relation or S-S^), 3/2 (samvada or S-P relation), 4/3 (another samvada or the S-M relation).
Similarly we shall find S-G relation where the freq of G is 5/4 f and the S-g relation where the freq of g is 6/5 f. The relation S-G-P is called a major triad, and the S-g-P is called a minor triad. These are also musically pleasing based on the theory of harmonics explained above. Also note that the ratio of the frequencies of G to S is 5/4 and that of P to G is 6/5 (that is the same as g to S). Examples of other major triads: r-M-d, g-P-n etc and of minor traids: R-M-d, G-P-N, P_-n_-R etc.

A scale developed in the above way is called a harmonic scale.

The scale predominant in Western music today or in any keyboard (piano, harmonium etc) is called the equal temperament. It cannot maintain these relationships based on harmonics except the octave relation, because in an equally tempered scale frequency ratios of two successive notes on the keyboard are the SAME for any two successive notes and that is the twelvth root of 2. So this way when you start from S and keep on multiplying by twelvth root of 2 and do it 12 times you reach the frequency 2f (the higher octave Sa), but you mess up all other harmonic relationships. For example the note P has the frequency 1.498... times f which is definitely NOT 3/2 f.

So in the above I have described some basics of the so-called harmonic scale on which Indian music is based, and in principle all music can be based. That is why, in Indian music, strictly, keyboards are discouraged. In all traditional music, some drone instruments are used like the tambura (in classical music) or do-tara etc (in folk music) and these are tuned usually in notes S and P with the absolute frequencies chosen appropriate for the vocalist's voice range or the type of instrument. Other than this absolute frequencies really do not have much place in music, the frequency ratios are important.

Melody is a musical piece where a succession of notes are taken one after the other so that the requirements of melody are fulfilled. Harmony on the other hand is implemented by taking more than one pitch sounding at the same time. Most harmonies are based on chords (groups of notes built on major and minor triads). Harmany can also be implemented by taking more than one independent melodic line at the same time (known as polyphony or counterpoint).

I do not know how to explain these things in a simpler way. These are much better conveyed in a lecture demonstration.

More later. BTW, during breakfast, I have listened to the song "Kalyana Then Nila" given in Sri's post # 161. Whenever I have some time, and if you people have some interest I can discuss that.

Actually these installation people went for an early lunch today, and that gave me the opportunity to write this long post. Now I am feeling very hungry. Off to lunch. I'll correct the typos later (must be many there).

Regards.

Note: Many typos corrected, one error corrected, a few lines added for more clarity.
 
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Wow Asit that was some explanation! As you said for guys like me it is better to be explained as a demo:) Thanks a lot for taking time to write it.The song i have mentioned in my above post is one of the most liked song of Ilayaraja. Along with Klayana Then Nila you can give a hearing to this song too.The male voice is Raja himself.

Thanks,
sri


YouTube - poo malaye - illayaraja
 
Asit - that was mind boggling as far as posts go. If that is what a lecture from you entails, I assure you I am all for it. This coming from a person who rarely was to be found in college lecture halls:). Well, almost all of them except for the Quantum mechanics ones!

I will not profess to understanding everything about the mathematical relations of the tones you mention in your earlier post. But it is a start and I am better off than earlier. Or so I believe.

I have a somewhat related question on this. If these swaras are all pertaining to frequencies and melodies basically correspond to an interplay of related frequencies (mathematically), does it come to pass that renowned practitioners and originators of classical music like Saint Thyagaraja, Tansen et al had an idea about this mathematical relation of notes?

Or is this another case of science finding out the relation between these notes on an after the fact basis? I would love to know this. Sorry if this comes across as a most ignorant question.
 
All music is mathematics --- or, at least, all music is numbers.

A note is that note because of the frequency at which it is vibrating, and it has that quality (eg of different instruments) because of the other frequencies (harmonics) mixed in with it.

Rhythm is also just a matter of numbers, of regularly repeated patterns, but rather slower than the frequency of notes. seconds per cycle, rather than cycles per second.

Two weeks into the O-level maths class, when I was 15, I was told there was no point in my taking the class, let alone the exam. I was that bad --- and I still am, in many ways. Numbers and I just do not get on, which is but one reason why I would never make a mridangist.

Has that ever had the slightest effect on my enjoying music? Absolutely not!

I'm sure that composition has been going on for centuries before the maths was understood --- jut as boats were able to sail before more-recent aeronautical research found out how.

Errr... I think what I'm trying to say here is that, if you play random two-note chords on a keyboard, it is your ears which will tell you which ones sound good, not your calculator!

(afterthought: some people will find some chords sound good, while others will not --- the mystery contnues ;))
 
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Well, almost all of them except for the Quantum mechanics ones!
Well, if you want me to do that, I can do that too :D and I can bet it would be better than all lectures on QM you might have had before.


I have a somewhat related question on this. If these swaras are all pertaining to frequencies and melodies basically correspond to an interplay of related frequencies (mathematically), does it come to pass that renowned practitioners and originators of classical music like Saint Thyagaraja, Tansen et al had an idea about this mathematical relation of notes?

Or is this another case of science finding out the relation between these notes on an after the fact basis? I would love to know this. Sorry if this comes across as a most ignorant question.

This is perhaps the most important and lovely question anybody has asked me about all these analysis. And if you saw all my similar posts in this thread and also in the thread titled "Ali Akbar Khan passes away" and read between the lines, you may find the answer hidden there.

I have written many many times in all these threads that the melodic structures are a gift of nature. These combinations of notes happen naturally. What I have written in my previous post is just an explanation in terms of ratios of small integral numbers.

If you hold an apple above the ground level and let it go, EVERY TIME it will fall to the ground along a vertical direction. Never ever, by itself, it would go up in the sky or go up in any other direction. Similarly, a melodic structure always gets formed in a particular way: to elaborate on that, given a succession of notes in a particular way there arises an expectation of the next notes, and when that requirement is fulfilled, we get immersed in joy and in our minds say "wah wah" or "kya baat" or "shabash".

The basic rules that are important for forming the melodic structures are the notes defined by the harmonic scale discussed in my previous post. Then when I say a particular sequence is driven by the melodic structure P_-n_-R-M, you immediately see that in this structure there are two triads (one minor (P_-n_-R) another major (n_-R-M)) interspersed. If an incomplete melodic sentence emphasizes the notes P, n and R, the completion of that sentence will definitely be formed by taking the note M. I can make you listen many songs where a particular note is NOT taken during the initial movements (called Asthhayee), but the combination is such that it creates a tremendous expectation of that note, and then you will invariably find that note taken in the next movement (called Antara).

A Thyagaraja or a Tansen may not know the maths involved in defining the harmonic scale or the structures I discussed. But if you grow up with the notion of the harmonic scales and are a musician at heart, the naturally pleasing combinations come to you effortlessly without a fail just like the apple inevitably falls down to the earth. The apple did not have to know about the law of gravitation, but it still happens naturally.

So doing the music oneself or listening to it is the key here. But one has to submit oneself to the music and it will take its natural course, one may not do anything consciously to change the course. Melody naturally takes the course of musicality as opposed to virtuosity. If one gets trained from an early stage and gets a taste of the beauty of these scales and one has the talent, one day one becomes a Tansen or a Thyagaraja, once in a few centuries.

However, the analysis is also important. It shows the natural basis of music and actually helps in understanding the structures which in turn helps in performance. This part needs actual demonstration and I am unable to show you unless in person.

Regards.
 
Melody is a musical piece where a succession of notes are taken one after the other so that the requirements of melody are fulfilled..
Hello Asit

Not sure you intended it, but can you clarify the circular definition?

Regards
 
Hi Gobble,

It's not a circular definition, rather an implicit one. I have not fully specified the requirements of melody in my posts so far, but only indicated it. A few things are clear: 1) The notes arise from the harmonic scale (also known as "Just Intonation"), 2) The notes to follow are dictated by the notes already taken, this obviously presumes our brain stores the previous notes and there is a persistence of previous notes.

With the above in mind, I can now say that a given sequence of notes under critical review has revealed that the most important notes (in terms of times spent) always come in a pattern that I have already discussed at least twice in this forum, once in discussing the formation of the scale of "Mohanam" in my post in the thread "Ali Akbar Khan passes away" and once earlier in this thread.

In Mohanam the structure was: D_-S-G-P (D_-S-G a minor triad and S-G-P a major triad) and there was also a 5th note R taken consonant with D.

In the example thrown at me by Ramanujam, the structure was P_-n_-R-M (again with two interspersed triads P_-n_-R and n_-R-M) and the 5th note here is the tonic S naturally consonant with both the extreme notes P and M.

These structures A-B-C-D where ABC is a major(minor) triad and BCD is minor(major) triad are the main building blocks of melodies. Each raga has such a main building block. Some ragas or folk or any other melodies can be more complex (actually most are), and they can have more than one such structures, one will be dominant and the other will be subdominant.

Actually this is a nice place to discuss the song "Kalyana ..." given by Sri that Iheard this morning. That song uses the notes S R g M P n. There are actually two structures : 1) S - g - P - n, and 2) P_ - n_ - R - M.

In he earlier example the 2nd structure was only present. Now in this specimen, the SgPn structure is the dominant structure and the nature of the melody completely changes from the other song where the PnRM structure was present.

This piece given by Sri is actually a very brief rendition of a raga that falls in the Kanada group (there are many kanadas in the North Indian nomenclature, not completely sure about the Carnatic nomenclature here). Of course a full rendition of the raga will involve a a very detailed treatment of the melody. However, I really enjoyed the song.

So when a sequence of notes is taken, for it to be a melodic sentence, the structure I have discussed above needs to come out as prominent (even if there are other notes).

I hope my sentence is clearer now.

Regards.

PS: BTW these structures have been called Meru or matrika of a raga and the major and minor triads interspersed in the Meru has been called Merukhanda. Some people have coloquially called it Meend khanda and I have heard it being faultily used for completely different things.

I should mention one thing. All the stuff I have written in my posts here is a result of a conscious effort started when I was a teenager trying to understand the inner structures of ragas. The way they are taught these days, it seems as if an arbitrary collection of notes are taken and then some arbitrary rules are chosen ad hoc to dictate which movements are allowed and which are not. I told myself this cannot be true, and set out finding the answers for myself. I have read as much lieterature as possible, talked to as many people as possible including a few musicians of the century, and analysed a few thousand musical specimens, and above all verified while singing myself some of the things.
 
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