Is A.R.Rehman that great?

Since the erudite members (esp, Asit) have turned the nature of this discussion from a slugfest to a meaningful one, I have a couple of doubts.

People say that most of the music in Western is based on just two ragas, Sankarabaranam, Kalyani (maybe Mohanam to an extent) and the chinese music is almost entirely based on Mohanam. Is it true? Does it mean that our structure has infinitely more variety?

There are two basic scales in Western music: major and minor.

Apart from that, there are many kinds of music in the world that you can play on the five-note scale of the black notes on a keyboard. Irish, Scottish... "chinese"...
 
Hi Thad,

Did you attend a marriage reception some time back at the Blue Lagoon Hotel On ECR Road? I think i saw a Brit there with the Indian Dress. If not please pardon me.

sri
 
There are two basic scales in Western music: major and minor.

Apart from that, there are many kinds of music in the world that you can play on the five-note scale of the black notes on a keyboard. Irish, Scottish... "chinese"...

Any unquotable implication underlying the use of quotes around chinese?

And how do you think chinese would react if a genre were to be called Tibetean music? Official chinese stand - This genre is Tibet Autonomous Region of People's Republic of China's music!
 
well SRR i don't know what you are getting at here. That Q was posed by me.And you say your reply is for manu? Am i missing something here?


Edit. Srr, Since you didn't reply to my PM i am editing my post here. Well you quote my question and say that was Thad's wedding and then you come out and say the reply is for Manu? Well do you realise you are insulting both me and Manu? If this is your idea of being funny well it is not. You can show some respect to fellow members right?

Well i really want to know what ram ,the moderator has to say about this.

sri
 
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Hi folks,

I am extremely sorry to have vanished from the thread since morning. Actually, right from this morning we have a huge installation of a supercomputer (nearly 14 Tera FLOPS peak performance, 1 FLOPS = 1 floating point operation per sec, 1 tera = 1 million million) going on in our Institute and I am the main person behind this. Two engineers from abroad have come along with two Indians who were sent abroad for training. Since 8AM they have been working without having taken lunch, and I had to be with them even though basically I have nothing to do, just looking around, holding doors for them etc. The meticulousness with which they have been working (inch perfect, because we do not have wide and high corridors, access to loading zones and lifts are smallish) is unbelievable, and in my mind I am feeling very ashamed because nobody works like this here. If we did, India would have been such a better place to live.

I'll answer all the questions one by one whenever I have some time. Please have some patience.

Let me first answer some brief ones.

Hi Cooltoad,
I do not think Shankaravarnam (Bilawal in North India) and Kalyani (Kalyan/Yaman in North India) are the only two scales in Western music. I think there are more scales used, I may be wrong though. However, the use of melody is somewhat limited in Western Classical music at least, when compared to the multitude of melodic structures found in Indian music. What has been highly developed in Western classical music is harmony. Melody is, for example, used in so-called counterpoints where two or more vocals are used simultaneously which are harmonically related. I do not want to say too many things here, because my expertise in Western classical is very limited and is mostly acquired by reading stuff and hearing it a bit rather than living in or living through that music and hence there is every chance that I'll make mistakes.

Hi Vortex,
Yes, we have the 7 main notes, and in addition semitones and microtones. But we have a finite number of notes in one octave. Obviously we have therefore a finite number of scales. One thing worth mentioning is that a melodic scale is NOT made by arbitrarily picking a few notes and a piece of melody is NOT composed then by having arbitrary permutations of those notes. Relations between and among notes are very important in building a melody. Sometime ago, I described how the scale of Mohanam (Bhupali) is born in a thread titled "Ali Akbar Khan passes away". That was one of the simplest melodic scale, because the the scale is pentatonic. Formation of more complicated melodic scales are obviously possible, but the basic principle of how a melodic scale is formed was decribed there. But however, in each scale the possible pleasing combinations of notes are very very large. That's why in Indian classical music, especially in the Ragam part (that is, the aalap or vistar part) is elaborate and the raga-exposition is done and improvisations take place within the structure of the raga.

Since the possible scales are already there in nature, it is just a matter of finding them. But thst's not as easy as I said there. It takes a few tens of years of being fully immersed in these things to completely extract the beauty of each melody (the exact shade of a microtone), and only then new possible melodies may dawn on you. So invention or discovery, whatever you call it, it's still a nontrivial job and takes a very mature and talented musician to discover the apparently new ones.

Sri, I think you will find the issue raised by you discussed above. I know even musicians fight at times with each other. After all, they are also human beings, and some human characteristics get better of them. I tend to believe new ragas are only discovered, just like electricity was discovered and not invented, because these are already there in nature. But still it takes an extraordinary talent to discover them.

Hi Ramanujam,
I am at the office now and both my desktops (used only for scientific purposes, except of course going to hifivision) do not have speakers, and I have not brought my laptop to office today. So until I go home, I will not have a chance to listen to the tunes you have given above. One of them ("sili sili") sounds very familiar. Please wait till then.

Regards.
 
I am at the office now and both my desktops (used only for scientific purposes, except of course going to hifivision)
Regards.

I dont think you should classify going to hifivision as unscientific activity. Your posts are scientific, certainly in the sense of being fact based and consistent.

The term scientific reminds of a debate in another thread about darwin. I am already lined up for slaughter for failed humour, so i will resist the urge to type more.
 
ajinkya,
well, that is how it ought to be!:)
perhaps, you and i see that animal instincts and english have a broader appeal for a wider swathe of peoples than refinement and culture! (and that is an indictment of our human race!) i am a huge fan of nusrath fateh ali khan.

Suri,
Let's hope the people who are in charge of allocating budgets in India read this post and do the needful for our universities and research institutes :D

The second point reminds me of a story about tastes from one of my professors, a little tangential but still....
" Today, walk into a grocery store and look at all the Coke/Pepsi promos on their 12-can boxes (Coke advertises some free gift or other to promote the sale of these 12 packs at various times in the year). Once I saw a promo offering the entire World Book encyclopedia on a single DVD, free with a 12-pack box of Coke. So I thought to myself... here's the whole of human knowledge, art, science, history and civilisation, given to me FREE!....But I still have to pay for the cola."

Point being, popular "taste" , whether in music or drinks, is not always an indicator of quality. :sad: I don't know whether it is animal instincts or just a desire to blend with everyone that makes 'pop' culture mainstream. But then I am not a sociologist.

I have heard Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan only in the Sangam album. I know he also used to sing traditional sufi songs. Any good album worth listening to, as an introduction?
 
I have heard Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan only in the Sangam album. I know he also used to sing traditional sufi songs. Any good album worth listening to, as an introduction?

I have bought and listened to an album called "Ghhongat chak le sajna". It will be best heard in the Lyrita. Music Today is the label, good quality recording.

There are quite a few of his releases in music today, which is a good bet when you want to pay for music.
 
Hi Ramanujam,

I just heard the two songs. Yara sili sili is a beautiful song, it indeed does have a haunting element. However the melodic scale is the same as your previous example: S R M P n. It does use the note shudh gandhar G just a little, but does not change or affect the dominant scale. So the analysis is as before.

However, the other song hawa hawa I did not like. It's not a melodic piece at all. First of all, it does use only SRGMP and basically nothing else. In those notes there exist a consonance relation S-P, another consonance S-M, a major triad S-G-P, that's all. These are not sufficient to produce a melodic scale.
In addition, there were too many electronic pieces and the singer's voice was not in proper tune.

See ramanujam, what happens when I hear a piece, just by listening it has to sound good (that is, melodic) without any analysis. With my experience what actually happens is that the notation of every movement is also apparent to me immediately. Then I sit down and see if the results of the hearing (experiment) is consistent with the analysis done later. Every time it tallies.

May be, you gave me this other piece just as a teaser :D.

Regards.
 
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Suri,
Let's hope the people who are in charge of allocating budgets in India read this post and do the needful for our universities and research institutes :D

The second point reminds me of a story about tastes from one of my professors, a little tangential but still....
" Today, walk into a grocery store and look at all the Coke/Pepsi promos on their 12-can boxes (Coke advertises some free gift or other to promote the sale of these 12 packs at various times in the year). Once I saw a promo offering the entire World Book encyclopedia on a single DVD, free with a 12-pack box of Coke. So I thought to myself... here's the whole of human knowledge, art, science, history and civilisation, given to me FREE!....But I still have to pay for the cola."

Point being, popular "taste" , whether in music or drinks, is not always an indicator of quality. :sad: I don't know whether it is animal instincts or just a desire to blend with everyone that makes 'pop' culture mainstream. But then I am not a sociologist.

entirely true-

but there probably is a twist - Coca-cola is made according to a secret recipe. It is accepted that in the early years, an added drug/substance was a part of the recipe - this contributed to it's phenomenal popularity.

in later years, when forensics became sophisticated, the recipe makers probably (contemplating prison sentences) pulled out the secret drug.

this would have led to comments such as " hey Joyce, coke used to do it for me, but now i have no enthusiasm for Robert's (lover) visits"

fall in sales for sure - and then the need to give free "gyan" to sell coke!


I have heard Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan only in the Sangam album. I know he also used to sing traditional sufi songs. Any good album worth listening to, as an introduction?




Nusrath Fateh Ali Khan and Michael Brook - "NIGHT SONG"

immersive, and should appeal to Asit as well, because i keep on humming these tunes and i float like a leaf on the river headed for the ocean!

i will send you a copy if you wish.

a small write-up -

"The second collaborative effort between Michael Brook and master qawwali singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan was recorded in nomadic fashion around the campus (including lounges and offices, in addition to the proper studios) of Peter Gabriels Real World facility near Bath. The nature of collaboration between Michael and Nusrat begun with Musst Musst continued to evolve. At the projects inception, Nusrat contacted poets in his native Pakistan to provide lyrical inspiration; in addition to the hand-pumped harmonium keyboard, a staple of qawwali music, he became enamored of the sounds available from a Korg synthesizer (Nusrat is heard playing the latter near the end of Night Song). For his part, Michael found himself gathering the raw materials of performances by Nusrat and his concert party and other guest musicians present at Real World, fitting parts together via tape editing to fashion the final shape of these tracks.

Regrettably, owing to their respective schedules, Nusrat and Michael only ever performed once together in public, at a festival in Bari, Italy. After his extended residency at Real World, Michael moved to Palo Alto in Californias Silicon Valley, to participate in developing new musical interfaces at Interval Research. He attributes much of Night Songs lasting impact to its being heralded at the time of release by the taste-making djs at public radio station KCRW in Los Angeles, the city where Michael would next relocate."
 
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Asit - I noticed our esteemed friend Murali_n has not yet been able to spare time to open a new thread on Ilayaraja's tunes.

And since we are discussing a few songs, may I point you towards a Hindi film score from Ilayaraja 'Cheeni Kum'? Most of the songs are adaptations (mostly techno adaptations with orchestra added and with increased tempo) of original melodies in Tamil.

I have always been curious as to how the North received this particular film score. Could you chip in with your thoughts if it is not too much trouble? If it does interest you, then I can give you links for the Tamil originals.

Sorry Ramanujam if this is an untoward diversion of the thread!
 
Hi Thad,

Did you attend a marriage reception some time back at the Blue Lagoon Hotel On ECR Road? I think i saw a Brit there with the Indian Dress. If not please pardon me.

sri

Yes, that was Thad's wedding.
No, that was not me!
Any unquotable implication underlying the use of quotes around chinese?

And how do you think chinese would react if a genre were to be called Tibetean music? Official chinese stand - This genre is Tibet Autonomous Region of People's Republic of China's music!
Wasn't thinking of Tibet, or politics, but my quotes (and lack of a capital "C") meant to convey, "a certain kind of Chinese music which has become a stereotype in the minds of many of the rest of the world's people, but which, although it may exist, is just a fragment of the diverse music of a vast country with an enormous population..." Phew... I'm out of breath now!

Or something to that effect.
 
No, that was not me!
Wasn't thinking of Tibet, or politics, but my quotes (and lack of a capital "C") meant to convey, "a certain kind of Chinese music which has become a stereotype in the minds of many of the rest of the world's people, but which, although it may exist, is just a fragment of the diverse music of a vast country with an enormous population..." Phew... I'm out of breath now!

Or something to that effect.

i would plead "TIME OUT"

and, in the company of savants, this is the best escape!:)

10 Most Fascinating Savants in the World - Neatorama
 
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May be, you gave me this other piece just as a teaser :D.

Regards.

There is an interesting background to this example. I heard this song first when i used to hate having to listen to "National Programme" on TV after 8 pm. Once this was the last song played in Chitrahaar as a sign off song. I found it a childish song. The next day morning, i found myself humming it, and strangely, as a i came out of the bathroom (not exactly a room, but sort of describes the activity) i heard my mother hum it too. And she asked me teasingly, if i had really got hooked on to it.

A few months later, when i was in back in hostel, i realised the song had actually become a rage.

Was trying to check if the song has any fundamental construct to have done so. The song sounds much warmer than the you tibe quality in reality.

Mr Asit/ Vortex

You may want to try this song. The original piece for this was an incredible score from Ilayaraja in his best days. The original is a little slower, uses less guitaring and is sung flat.

YouTube - Nile Nile Ambar Par, Cha.Nd Jab Aaye-Kalakaar

This is the original version

YouTube - Payanangal mudivathillai - Ilaiyanila - Ilaiyaraaja - SPB



And to answer one of Mr Asit's queries about IR songs and thevortex's

YouTube - Nizhalgal - Pon maalai pozhuthu - Ilaiyaraaja

and


YouTube - Raja Raja Cholan
 
So, this is turning out to be quite a thread.

Neele Neele Ambar Par is one of my favourites. Kishore excels himself.

The Tamil version is slightly more melodious and sung quicker. The evergreen SPB melts and flows in this song.
 
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
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