Is A.R.Rehman that great?

[psychotropic]

this discussion actually reminds me of this forum called gigpad.com that i was a member of in college (which is when i picked my juvenilie 'psychotropic' nickname because i thought it sounded cool). We used to fight about whether petrucci was better than satriani......or whether Eddie Van Halen was better than Paul Gilbert......similar stuff

 

[Asit]

Hi moktan,

I do not think any of my questions are generic. I would tend to believe they can be answered in a very precise accurate and relatively brief manner. I do not like to make mockery with music because music is much much greater than me or anybody else.

Do you know when I gave a graduate level course on Indian classical music abroad, the name of the course was "ethnomusicology" and the russian musician who asked me to deliver the course refused to call it anything else. I need to know then what is classical music to Thad.

The basis of Indian classical music is melody. And melody first needs a definition of the scale. I need to know when someone associates melody to as great a musician as Mozart, what is the basis of that scale. Does there exist a difference of the basis of that scale with that of Indian music in general, and specifically classical music?

Any discussion of good Indian music, be that be on ARR, film music, folk music or classical music, has to involve some appreciation of this melody. Once I was recommended Bach's sonatas (played by Itzhak Perlman, I have the EMI LP, superb superb recording) as great examples of the use of melody in Western classical music. It helped me understand the notion of melody the recommender had.

I am sorry if I have again said something that displeases you or anybody else.

Regards.

 

[neutral]

Why is Indian classical (Hindustani / Carnatic) mentioned in a discussion on ARR ? They are poles apart ! :lol:

I have the greatest respect for Indian classical (Hindustani / Carnatic) and western classical musicians. One third of my music collection comprises of these. The rest is classic rock/heavy metal.

 

[murali_n]

Hi murali,

I love your passion for raja's music. I can very well understand it too.I also think like MSV's TMS& Suseela era, raja's music will stay for ever.I also don't accept the statements that raja has not pushed the boundaries and din't come out of his comfort zone.People have to read the late writer Sujataha's writings about him to know to what extent he has smashed the predictable and mediocrity.

But murali you can tone down your colourful caps People always have their preferences and saying raja is the only one is not going to take this discussion anywhere.Like bala says comparisons are pointless.

I have seen many forums where raja's and ARR's fans go hammer and tongs at each other.We don't want a slugfest here too right?

The original q was' Is ARR that great?' So people can just discuss the merits and demerits of ARR'S music and state their opinion about his greatness or otherwise.

Peace....

cheers,
sri

Hai sri,

I only wanted to compare another legend. Each composer has his own assets , but I only wanted to say that in todays world of instant food and instant popularity the public confers the term genius at the drop of a hat. So popularity and success becomes the yardstick for talent, which should be otherwise IMHO. I only wanted to say that those who claim IR is inferior would not even heard 10% of IR's creations. I also like MSV-Ramamurthy , KVM and listen to MKT Baghavathar. Each one is great in his own right.
But what I meant to say was IR stands out from the Crowd, Versatile is the apt word to describe him. I did not mean to belittle any composer. I do listen to ARR's tamil songs (not heard much of his Hindi songs).

Like Vortex has said music is very personal and comparisons are meaningless.

Definitely sri I will no hit the Font button again at least in this thread.

I think I will stop posting here, lest I may end up the Moserw way.

N.Murali.

 

[srikarkav]

Hahaha you will never end up the moser way murali.I was just concerned that someone may get into an argument with you. I understand all your points and concur with them.

cheers,
sri

 

[Hiten]

but I only wanted to say that in todays world of instant food and instant popularity the public confers the term genius at the drop of a hat. So popularity and success becomes the yardstick for talent, which should be otherwise IMHO.

Thats true murali_n

As for greatness of any artist your preception of greatness or how you define greatness can give you right answer

 

[Asit]

Hi neutral,

Indian classical music is a very sophisticated (and perhaps stylised also) form of melody (based on something called the harmonic scale). And this melody is the cornerstone of all Indian music. And why only Indian music, very similar melodies you will find in many corners of the World, in the whole of South East Asia, China, Japan, in some European folk music, and even in Africa. Somebody, I think Vortex, has mentioned that unlike in the 50's and 60's where solo vocals were used more predominantly, nowadays more orchestration is used. But good composers of popular music form the core of the music based on Indian melodies, most of the times. That's why in a discussion of Indian film music, Indian classical music and also folk music (which you may say a country version and has the roots of the classical music) necessarily feature in. I do not know if AR Rehman is great or not, but he knows the essence of Indian classical music inside out to use them very well amidst a lot of orchestration that is in vogue and in great demand today.
I do not think I like all his compositions, but simply love many.

Can anybody (murali?) suggest a few good CDs of Ilaiyaraja's. I have a feeling I will love his music (do not think I have heard his compositions). If you think it will digress too far outside this thread, then please PM me with a few titles. And please do not think of North Indian or Carnatic styles. I am very familiar with the Carnatic classical style and even some Tamil and Kannada popular and devotional songs.

Regards.

 

[thevortex]

Asit - do you remember a PM from me a long time back where I expressed an ardent wish to quiz you about Indian classical and Western classical music and try and learn the similarities or distinctions? I have a feeling that this thread might help me out in that - the way it is shaping up. I would dearly love to know more on this subject. Also on the melodic scale aspect you touched upon in your earlier post. Those are fascinating. Of course, only if you dont mind.

Regarding Ilayaraja song recommendations, gosh, we definitely need to open a new thread.

Murali_n - would you please take this opportunity to open a new thread to post Ilayaraja's ageless melodies? I am not assigning a job or anything. But seeing as how your boundless enthusiasm and love for Ilayaraja is greater than a lot of others, you might love the first shot at this. Do let me know if this is not acceptable and I will open the thread so that people can post their recommendations of Ilayaraja's music.

 

[srikarkav]

Hi muarali,

I second bala's suggestions.Mentioning the song and writing a few words about it in the thread will be fine.I think it will be an interesting thread.

cheers,
sri

 

[longshanks]

Hai sri,
But what I meant to say was IR stands out from the Crowd, Versatile is the apt word to describe him.

I understand your intention was in the right spirit and out the love you have for Illayaraja's music.

The same way Illayaraja is versatile and stands out from the crowd for you, MSV and KVM appears more versatile than anyone and stands out from the crowd for me when it comes to south indian composers.

I have heard many of songs of Illayaraja, MSV and KVM but more number of songs of MSV and KVM has inspired and touched my soul than of Illayaraja.

Ive liked songs composed by T.R Pappa and Veda as well.

But, i will always agree that all these composers are great.

 

[suri]

Metallica I too do not like. They are not my kinda rock. But AC/DC! Now that is something. Any freakin day over AR R. There is infinitely more music in it.
Heavy metal (most bands) are original music. Not some digtal sound loops. I cant even begin to compare AR R and them. Not even mention them in the same sentence.

Wow !
Have you ever played in a band ? Ever tried to compose some original songs ????

hi neutral,

"Back in Black" was good for me.

And yes, we had a band called "Bloodsuckers" in school/1st P.U.C. and we were proud of a song we wrote - "when angels weep, we'll f$#@ them!

yeah, but we were not very popular!:sad:

 

[thevortex]

this discussion actually reminds me of this forum called gigpad.com that i was a member of in college (which is when i picked my juvenilie 'psychotropic' nickname because i thought it sounded cool). We used to fight about whether petrucci was better than satriani......or whether Eddie Van Halen was better than Paul Gilbert......similar stuff

Pardon my ignorance but who are these gentlemen, psychotropic?

 

[shailenderb]

Pardon my ignorance but who are these gentlemen, psychotropic?

If Psychotropic is talking about them, they must be some exotic Ilayarajas.

Warm Regds / Shailender

 

[deba]

This is my personal taste and opinion but I find Mr Rahman's music very average and think whatever hype has been created about him has more to do with media publicity then the content of his music.

I sometimes find using of too much Synthesizer and Sequencers make a composition lifeless and too electronic and thats what I find in Rahmans and many other new breed of musicians composition.

This is my personal opinion only.Yours will vary.

Thanks.

 

[asliarun]

This seems to be a very interesting and heated discussion! I guess it is to be expected when the topic is something most people are passionate about.

Comparisons are usually odious at best. While quantative comparisons might make some sense, qualitative comparisons such as ARR vs IR, Rafi vs Kishore, Mozart vs Beethoven, Malmsteen vs Bettencourt, or Monet vs Kandinsky don't make any sense simply because they're so subjective in nature. I think that it is our alpha male instinct to make social hierarchies and somehow try to identify "toppers" in everything. This drives us towards stupidities such as "TOP 10 blah" and "BEST blah blah".

Even if we consider two contemporaries in the same genre of the same artistic discipline (say, Lata vs Asha or Tendulkar vs Lara), can we qualitatively say that one sings or plays better than the other? No. At best, we can compare statistics or to some extent, specific techniques. The accuracy of our qualitative comparisons (and inversely, our blood pressure) will keep increasing the more specific we get with techniques. We can, for example, have a reasonable discussion about how ARR and IR and others use non-standard timings in their songs (do they?) or how they use multiple raagas in a single song.

 

[suri]

This seems to be a very interesting and heated discussion! I guess it is to be expected when the topic is something most people are passionate about.

Comparisons are usually odious at best. While quantative comparisons might make some sense, qualitative comparisons such as ARR vs IR, Rafi vs Kishore, Mozart vs Beethoven, Malmsteen vs Bettencourt, or Monet vs Kandinsky don't make any sense simply because they're so subjective in nature. I think that it is our alpha male instinct to make social hierarchies and somehow try to identify "toppers" in everything. This drives us towards stupidities such as "TOP 10 blah" and "BEST blah blah".

Even if we consider two contemporaries in the same genre of the same artistic discipline (say, Lata vs Asha or Tendulkar vs Lara), can we qualitatively say that one sings or plays better than the other? No. At best, we can compare statistics or to some extent, specific techniques. The accuracy of our qualitative comparisons (and inversely, our blood pressure) will keep increasing the more specific we get with techniques. We can, for example, have a reasonable discussion about how ARR and IR and others use non-standard timings in their songs (do they?) or how they use multiple raagas in a single song.

it might be instructive to put subjective considerations aside and listen to vox populi -

how to do this? clues can be had from commercial success of the artists being compared, especially if they are contemporaries - has ARR sold hundreds of thousands of his albums more than IR? (one might think that hundreds of thousands of vacuous idiots buying ARR's albums is no guarantee of his (relative) adroitness as a music maker - but, not so - people buying genuine cd are people with money - ergo, rich- and therefore, perhaps, higher up on the social bell-curve, and extrapolating = of higher intelligence = better suited to analyse the quality of the musician's music) - and no, politicians (except for rahul and priyanka gandhi) do not buy cd - they buy mp3

again, give this choice to a group of five hundred young professional cricketers - two rooms with two video screens, one showing different aspects of tendulkar's technique and the other showing different aspects of lara's technique, and if they could only choose one room, which would they choose - are there many more pax in sachin's room than in brian's room?

top ten lists, and best of the best, have their place in demonstrating the latitude (and longitude) of societal psychology.

but when subjective comparisons lead to furious and abrasive use of the keyboard, well........................

 

[suri]

I think that it is our alpha male instinct to make social hierarchies and somehow try to identify "toppers" in everything. This drives us towards stupidities such as "TOP 10 blah" and "BEST blah blah".

Asliarun,

"the alpha male instinct" - our cities, our society, our nations, our transactions, our wars, our atrocities, our evil, - everything is based on this bedrock.

there is no escape!

cheers

 

[asliarun]

it might be instructive to put subjective considerations aside and listen to vox populi -

In specific cases, you might be right; but overall I disagree. The vox populi has also made such decisions as Mayawati. Even if you make sure that the voters are experts in that domain, it only proves that one person is more "pop" (or popular) than the other. Popularity is not usually an indication of talent or greatness. To give another example, while MF Hussain might be the most popular Indian painter, it does not necessarily make him the most talented. Or Shah Rukh Khan for that matter

[edit] I realized later that I misunderstood your earlier post. Yes, you're right about mass popularity being at least one indicator.

 

[ajinkya]

(one might think that hundreds of thousands of vacuous idiots buying ARR's albums is no guarantee of his (relative) adroitness as a music maker - but, not so - people buying genuine cd are people with money - ergo, rich- and therefore, perhaps, higher up on the social bell-curve, and extrapolating = of higher intelligence = better suited to analyse the quality of the musician's music)

again, give this choice to a group of five hundred young professional cricketers - two rooms with two video screens, one showing different aspects of tendulkar's technique and the other showing different aspects of lara's technique, and if they could only choose one room, which would they choose - are there many more pax in sachin's room than in brian's room?

Suri,
Wealth is not an indicator of higher intelligence in general at all. At least not in India. Even in most of the world. Otherwise every university professor and research scientist would be a millionaire. People buying CDs are also not higher on any social curve- there is no strong correlation.

Given a choice between Tendulkar and Lara, I am sure most young cricketers would be equally driven by patriotism, childhood idolism, and upbringing as by the actual styles of the two cricketers. When two things (people, technologies, art) are almost on the same quality level, subjective factors like the ones mentioned have as much impact in the final choice as the relative merit of the thing you are considering. So I do not think we can generalise anything in such broad terms.

E.g., Pandit Bhimsen Joshi has a voice which is magnificent in it's grandeur, depth and range of scale. Even though I am not classically trained and do not even understand the basics of Indian classical music, his voice moves me more than (say) Michael Jackson's. But I am sure MJ has sold more copies than Pt. Joshi ever will, worldwide.

regards,
Ajinkya.

 

[thevortex]

Suri,
Wealth is not an indicator of higher intelligence in general at all. At least not in India. Even in most of the world. Otherwise every university professor and research scientist would be a millionaire. People buying CDs are also not higher on any social curve- there is no strong correlation.

Given a choice between Tendulkar and Lara, I am sure most young cricketers would be equally driven by patriotism, childhood idolism, and upbringing as by the actual styles of the two cricketers. When two things (people, technologies, art) are almost on the same quality level, subjective factors like the ones mentioned have as much impact in the final choice as the relative merit of the thing you are considering. So I do not think we can generalise anything in such broad terms.

E.g., Pandit Bhimsen Joshi has a voice which is magnificent in it's grandeur, depth and range of scale. Even though I am not classically trained and do not even understand the basics of Indian classical music, his voice moves me more than (say) Michael Jackson's. But I am sure MJ has sold more copies than Pt. Joshi ever will, worldwide.

regards,
Ajinkya.

Not much I can say but 'ditto'.

Popularity and quality are two different things. Otherwise Jaguar would have had more bookings than Tata Nano!!!