Is A.R.Rehman that great?

[thevortex]

Mediocre or great music for a person again depends upon personal taste. When i say personal taste it includes many factors and depends upon many things.


I cant agree that simply because something is carnatic or Hindustani or western classical then i have to like it or it necessarily has to be great to me.

I agree with the first section. It follows then that there is no need for the second section at all. I dont think anybody was saying that compositions in a particular genre are great. It is all subjective.

As for true greatness, we will then have to discuss and arrive upon the metrics that we are going to apply and our gradation logic. But then that would be like taking too much fun out of the act of listening to music, dont you think?

 

[srramanujam]

Music is nothing if not personal.

touche. class.

 

[neutral]

These are just different styles. Personally I can listen to all kinds of music. Heavy metal is the only exception. I cannot find any music in it. No offense meant to the many aficionados of metallica in here.

Metallica I too do not like. They are not my kinda rock. But AC/DC! Now that is something. Any freakin day over AR R. There is infinitely more music in it.
Heavy metal (most bands) are original music. Not some digtal sound loops. I cant even begin to compare AR R and them. Not even mention them in the same sentence.

Wow !
Have you ever played in a band ? Ever tried to compose some original songs ????

 

[thevortex]

Metallica I too do not like. They are not my kinda rock. But AC/DC! Now that is something. Any freakin day over AR R. There is infinitely more music in it.
Heavy metal (most bands) are original music. Not some digtal sound loops. I cant even begin to compare AR R and them. Not even mention them in the same sentence.

Wow !
Have you ever played in a band ? Ever tried to compose some original songs ????

No, mate. I am afraid I do not possess such talent. But I hope I am still allowed to mention that I absolutely cannot enjoy metallica. Even AC/DC.

 

[longshanks]

But then that would be like taking too much fun out of the act of listening to music, dont you think?

Yes, absolutely.

I stated the second point because many times i've seen people quoting classical music as an example of great music and like all other forms are inferior.

Anyways lets us listen and enjoy the music that we like rather than discussing and debating about what kind of music is great.

 

[murali_n]

very interesting topic, thought I could throw in some words.
the point is, ARR has incredible talent and his achievements show that. If someone like Hans Zimmer is convinced that he qualifies for the award, then he is really something, IMO.
Ilaiyaraja vs ARR....well, I do like Ilaiyaraja, especially his themes (anyone remember Aan Paavam). but as someone else said before, I felt he never really was able to come out of his comfort zone. being a small time drummer myself, I never found variety in the percussion he adds to his songs. to my limited knowledge, I have never known any other composers in the present time who can bring in as much variety with such success as ARR. In fact, I belive MSV was much more talented in that aspect. Inspite of poor recording, some of his songs have amazed me in their rich mix of instruments and adding Kannadasan's lyrics made them unforgettable hits.

Hai Vishanv,

I cant accept your statement. I think you have not listened to IR extensively. No composer has used the Bass Guitar or the Keyboards so creatively as IR. From Classical point of view he has used almost all the carnatic ragas without diluting or distortion. He has not received due recognition for his talent. In todays Cable TV age any remix song played 10 times in a week becomes a SuperHit.

Ilaiyaraja is not just number one he is the ONLY ONE

N.Murali

 

[mr_grump5]

Hai Vishanv,

I cant accept your statement. I think you have not listened to IR extensively. No composer has used the Bass Guitar or the Keyboards so creatively as IR. From Classical point of view he has used almost all the carnatic ragas without diluting or distortion. He has not received due recognition for his talent. In todays Cable TV age any remix song played 10 times in a week becomes a SuperHit.

Ilaiyaraja is not just number one he is the ONLY ONE

N.Murali

yep..raja's creativity is unparalleled..we are discussing about a guy who had written a complete film score in 20 minutes flat and has written more film scores than any other composer in the world and still continues to mesmerize us..check out this title score from his latest movie

YouTube - Paa Trailer - Full Version (Amitabh Bachchan, Abhishek Bachchan, Vidya Balan


eagerly awaiting for his concert with hungary symphony orchestra!

 

[venkatcr]

I have been to an ARR performance where his compositions were played by a British symphony orchestra. In my humble opinion they did not stand the test. Such arrangements of Beatles' songs do stand that test: even though composed as pop trivia, they have a depth and richness that can survive an orchestra.

I think the very fact that the British Symphony Orchestra decided to play ARR's tunes is a testimony to his capabilities. At the same time, I think these comparisons are not fair at all.

It is very difficult for a Western orchestra to understand the nuances of Indian music and render it properly. In addition there is huge difference between Indian and Western music styles. There have been very few Western artists who have understood Indian music and played it properly. One was John Higgins. You take an artists who has been playing Mozart and Beethoven for years and ask him to play something else, it is only human that he will start comparing with what he is familiar with, and may start to slightly alter the music to a style he understands.

Thad, an Album you must listen to is Raga Mala by Ravi Shankar along with Zubin Mehta conducting the London Philharmonic Orchestra. It is a masterpiece where two distinctly different music styles merge so beautifully. BUT, this would not have succeeded if the conductor had been anyone other than Zubin. In addition to being schooled in Western Classicals, he understood Indian music, and, worked very hard with Ravi Shankar to teach all the artists of the orchestra the nuances of the Indian style of music.

Maybe it is an unfair and even irrelevant comparison, but I think that Lennon and McCartney compositions will still be around in centuries to come, I don't think that ARR's will.

Believe me, composers such as ARR will live for ever in the hearts of people who understand the music. Remember Thad, there are lots of people for whom Mozart, Lennon, and McCartney don't even exist and could be even irrelevant.

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

Hai Vishanv,

I cant accept your statement. I think you have not listened to IR extensively. No composer has used the Bass Guitar or the Keyboards so creatively as IR. From Classical point of view he has used almost all the carnatic ragas without diluting or distortion. He has not received due recognition for his talent. In todays Cable TV age any remix song played 10 times in a week becomes a SuperHit.

Ilaiyaraja is not just number one he is the ONLY ONE

N.Murali

I really dont want this to get into some sort of comparison or contest. I love Ilayaraja as I love very few other music composers.

But I also do like Rahman's work and consider him truly to also be a great musician.

The numbers will catch up eventually. But they hardly tell the true story. Or even the full story. It is like comparing the figures of, say, Michael Holding and Munaf Patel. The latter may soon surpass the former in statistics - at least in terms of wickets alone. But that is hardly the point. Dont you think?

 

[moktan]

but there is something in what Thad says which strikes a chord...and i find it quite intriguing that i end up agreeing with him when he talks about the music (and the lyrics perhaps ) of the Beatles duo lasting for centuries...
he may have indulged in hyperbole.....
but there is no denying the fact that when we talk about the music of the Beatles or Beethoven or Mozart for that matter, 'where' these artists originated from, in what language or genre of music they made the compositions hardly matters...like a good speaker that 'disappears' we somehow begin to adopt their music as 'our' very own (i have heard Mozart pieces being rendered or appropriated as their very own by a diverse set of musicians...from Anu Mallik to Syrian composers)...
now we can take up postcolonial positions and say that it is politics which has ensured such prioritized positions in the canonization of music...
or being less political we can attribute the universal acceptance and celebration of such music to the genius of the composers....
in that sense maybe AR still has some way to go...
here is wishing that the compulsion to please his movie masters do not tamper too much with his musical soul and genius...

 

[thevortex]

I dont know, Moktan...

Is there any difficulty in believing that somebody like Mozart may not be liked by a set of people?

By the way, all kinds of music extend for a long time, as I see it. BoneyM for example. I am not against BoneyM, but their music is extremely cliched - at least that is what I find. But you still find their music being sold pretty well actually.

In general I do see what you mean. Timeless appeal and all that sort of thing. Definitely. But I do not agree with Thad's method of judging - a British orchestra rendering Rahman's compositions.

 

[srikarkav]

Hi murali,

I love your passion for raja's music. I can very well understand it too.I also think like MSV's TMS& Suseela era, raja's music will stay for ever.I also don't accept the statements that raja has not pushed the boundaries and din't come out of his comfort zone.People have to read the late writer Sujataha's writings about him to know to what extent he has smashed the predictable and mediocrity.

But murali you can tone down your colourful caps People always have their preferences and saying raja is the only one is not going to take this discussion anywhere.Like bala says comparisons are pointless.

I have seen many forums where raja's and ARR's fans go hammer and tongs at each other.We don't want a slugfest here too right?

The original q was' Is ARR that great?' So people can just discuss the merits and demerits of ARR'S music and state their opinion about his greatness or otherwise.

Peace....

cheers,
sri

 

[moktan]

TV

i wouldn't put too much stock in something being 'liked' or 'not liked' by folks...fads come and go..the operative word that Thad used is centuries..in that sense we may have to give Beatles the benefit of the doubt that they will enjoy such longevity.. as for Mozart and Beethoven , the Indian Ragas and even the Tribal chants....i don't think that question arises at all..
and yes i am quite circumspect in my opinion about the musical value added to AR's effort by the Brit orchestra....
as for Boney M....i loved and grew up on their music...Brown Girl in the Ring, Rivers of Babylon, Rasputin, Daddy Cool, night flight to venus.... (and yes the models on the cover for whom i had the hots in my days of crazy adolescence..)...but like a Richard Bach novel that you outgrow philosophically i have shed my fascination for BM..but can i say the same thing for Yellow Submarine or Octopuses garden(or Antoine de Saint-Exupry to carry forward the Bach allusion)...i don't really know...

 

[thevortex]

True, Moktan. And yes, it is all personal.

 

[Asit]

Jumping in after many posts, having just read the first few...

My answer is no.

Disclaimer: I am a classical music lover who hates most of the Indian film music he hears. So why would I even bother to look at, let alone answer, this thread?

Because... when I first heard AR's music, it was like a breath of fresh air among the film music. Roja, Sanagamam, 1947... great melodies, catchy tunes, good music. In a few years, though (I had a Bolly-/Tolly- wood-loving girlfriend at the time) I felt I was just hearing more of the same, and his music no longer stood out from the rest.

He is nicknamed "the mozart of madras". I have no idea why, as, as far as I know, he was not composing great classical pieces at a very young age. It can also be said of Mozart that his music has lasted centuries, and that he has written melodies that are familiar even to those who have no idea what they are.

I have been to an ARR performance where his compositions were played by a British symphony orchestra. In my humble opinion they did not stand the test. Such arrangements of Beatles' songs do stand that test: even though composed as pop trivia, they have a depth and richness that can survive an orchestra.

Maybe it is an unfair and even irrelevant comparison, but I think that Lennon and McCartney compositions will still be around in centuries to come, I don't think that ARR's will.

Having said that, I still hear snippets from those early films on peoples' radios; they have managed to maintain their appeal so far.

It is easy to be a music snob. Not every composition has to be great; it may be enough that it is enjoyed for one day.

Hi Thad,
I would not like to join in this discussion of the debated greatness of AR Rahman. However, very humbly, I like to ask you a few questions to enrich my knowledge:

1) When you say you are a classical music lover, I am just wondering what music may that be. How do you define classical music? Which part of the world you find this music in? My question may seem to be a trivial question, but I have a purpose for asking it. I also like to know what you'd call a raga rendition by somebody like Ravi Shankar or Lalgudi Jayaraman? A piece of World music? Or Ethnic music?

2) You have referred to W A Mozart composing melodic pieces. I am interested to know what in your opinion is a melody. If I give you a certain succession of notes, will you be able to give me the notes to follow so that a melodic piece is made?

3) Your answer to the question no.2 above will probably let me understand 'the test' that you talked about in your post. I am curious to know what is really the test you are using. What is the result of that test when applied to the British Symphony orchestra?

4) Have you ever heard any Western musician playing any form of Indian music well? If the answer is yes, I'd like to know the name(s). If the answer is no, have you ever wondered the reasons as to why.

I am sorry if my questions bother you. I am actually trying to understand your post.

Regards.

 

[moktan]

just my two pence..
if for every post that we make on a friendly forum we are subjected to this kind of interrogation then maybe we should be scurrying for cover and ensuring that what we say is water tight, well annotated and preemptive of all possible missreadings..
on a more serious note, Asit don't you think you are making it a little too hard for Thad, whom i believe in all honesty, would not have wished to raise such a ruckus...
please pardon me if i have made any intemperate remarks...

 

[Asit]

Hi moktan,

I am sorry if you find my questions to Thad offensive and an interrogation. It is none of that sort. I am just trying to understand the basis for Thad's posts. My questions were as objective as questions can be. Why is it that you are prepared to give the benefit of doubt to one and not to the other? Has it ever occurred to you that certain apparently friendly posts may hurt the feelings of some?

Any way, I take it then that this thread is not for me to discuss serious aspects of music and my attempt to seek some answers. I take it seriously when it comes to music and it is then best for me to shut up. Sorry to disrupt your discussions.

Regards.

 

[moktan]

asit,
i think you got me wrong here. i am sure most folks in this thread would appreciate the wealth of knowledge, passion and insight that you bring to the discussions here...my only issue was that some of the questions that you have posed to Thad are generic ones to which even encyclopedias would not be enough to give full scope...
but now i realize you have raised those queries to be better acquainted with his position visa vi his post..
please pardon me my presumptions and kindly contribute to the exchange here so that we can all gain from our appreciation of our musical heritage (yes i hold AR in that light..)
thanks

 

[cooltoad]

Interesting to see music being discussed(?) instead of tech stuff for a change. Much has been said already and such debates will go on.Most of us generally like music that we grew up with. I've been fortunate enough to love good music in everything from carnatic to R&B to persian, but i fully appreciate the fact that a carnatic piece by MDR or rock no by Led zep that i like may not or in fact will not be liked by people around me. But IMO Great music is something that transcends subjectivity.

As aside, I'd love people here to share their top 5 nos which they rate as immortal/classics which would open our to eyes to new music and also can show how diverse and subjective greatness can be.

 

[srramanujam]

See the top 20 (hindi) list of Rehman in you tube. Feel like kicking this guy, for missing out all the gems.