J Play 5.1 - 2 Box on Win 8 with ULTRA Mode & Hibernate ON

[sidvee]

@Thad, nothing personal, but I dont give a rat's behind what others have or have not been doing for a decade or 2 decades - what is happening now is relevant. If you have been doing computer audio for 20 years then excellent, you should guide me how to achieve great hi-fi sound from my computer. If not, then I have no choice, but to fumble around and claim that hi-fi from computers is still NASCENT. And one request shall we take our "heated discussion" on PM so as to not derail the thread. I can guarantee you none of the esteemed members here also give a rat's behind as to how old computer audio is or how much experience one has in it, or how much money one has spent in it - they just want good sound from their machines
Cheers,
Sid

 

[bhagwan]

@ - they just want good sound from their machines
Cheers,
Sid

Perfect Sid;
I agree with this.
I just am interested in getting good sound from my PC's & that is all;

 

[bhagwan]

Thanks for the explanation.

I use a Media Player that sends the data to DAC. The files are stored on a NAS and to play the file, I choose the file on my iPad using Kinsky which in turns tells the media player to fetch the file from NAS.

In your version of setup, I see the Silver Machine as the Media Player, Black Machine as NAS + iPad controller.

I can understand your excitement due to improvement in the sound quality. Please don't be offended by my questions.
I am just trying to understand the set-up as a layman/novice.

@ Shivam,
I have marked in 'red'
My SM is not a Media Player.
The BM is a Media Player & Nas [2 in 1]

No Music is stored on the SM - No Media Software is present or used on the SM
The Playback Software in on the BM
The SM is a 'pure' conduit - just passes the music through from the BM to the DAC.

The Sound Quality has only gone up - because I have done this.

My Old Set up was exactly what you had stated.
BM was NAS
SM was Media Player - Foobar / J River etc.

However, now it has changed;;;
All was Win 7 - 64 Bit based.
Now all is Win 8 based.

If you need to understand this further - just call me & we can chat about it - will make things clear - I assume...

All the Best !

 

[mbhangui]

i think this was posted before in this forum..i am sure this is definitely a good read and it comes from Denon !!

Thad..you will enjoy the comments

:lol:

I had read this before. Like Thad, I also don't want to jump on anything if there is no scientific explanation. I have read through all the posts and also the jplay controversy. One of the thing to be taken into account, when using PC audio, is the problem of jitter. Now most PCs are not setup with Real-Time OS. When I read about the jplay and about Bhagvan's two PC setup, it has all started making sense. If you can make your audio application work real-time, your jitter should reduce. So I did an experiment on my windows PC and after making the change, I am excited like Bhagwan.

I would urge all of you who are using application like foobar, jriver, mediamonkey to try this.

Increase the priority of your audio application to "High" and report back what you hear.

How to increase the priority. Run the windows task Manager. Under process locate your process and right click to set the priority.

But it is a pain to do this everytime. So follow the url below
Permanently Set and Save Process Priority in Windows Task Manager Using Prio - Tweaking with Vishal

Like Bhagwan, I am excited. For the first time my HTPC is giving better sound than my CD player. Thanks to this heated debate. We need many debates like this to discover something new.

EDIT: I installed Jplay. By setting priority of Foobar to high, I don't find any difference between jplay, foobar and mediamonkey

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

sid, you talk about experience, but you don't seem to respect it. That's all from me. But I'm glad for your successes and will continue to enjoy reading about them.

arj, yes, I remember the Denon cable

Here's something interesting happening in AV networking. Just came across it. Echo AVB.

Now most PCs are not setup with Real-Time OS.

Even if they are, the underlying hardware design is not real-time. But the consequence of troubles with interrupts, etc, is crackles and even drop outs. Yes, we have to struggle with this in Linux too!

Did I happen to mention I don't use Windows any longer?

But I do advise... take a careful note of all changes that you make, because they may have effects you don't expect. I have merrily charged through lists of Windows services, turning off stuff I was sure I didn't need, only to find, for instance, networking was completely dead. Or worse. Major experimental changes? It is a good idea to have an image backup, from which you can restore your OS to that known, working state. I know how to do this stuff in XP, but not in later versions.


.

 

[arj]

..and I am going to enjoy CDs and Vinyls till people figure out computer audio Cannot afford to sink money in stuff which not only is confusing now butgoing to get obsolete soon.

Folks , keep up the research and let us know :thumbsup:.

 

[bhagwan]

:lol:

Increase the priority of your audio application to "High" and report back what you hear.

EDIT: I installed Jplay. By setting priority of Foobar to high, I don't find any difference between jplay, foobar and mediamonkey

Sir,

Spot on;

Nor did I [marked in red - above]

I have been doing this for 3 + years & J Play never played better than Foobar & then J River.

I too never believed that J Play was better - simply cause it never sounded better;

However, the magic only happens when you do :-

Win 8
2 Machines
Version 5.1
Ultra Mode
Hibernate ON

Once the above is 'done' with the help of 2 OK Specked Machines - will you hear the difference & what a difference it is;;;;

From an earlier post :-

Both Machines have same - In Common
1]
M/B = ASUS Maximus V - Gene
2]
Ram - Cosair Vengence - 8 GB
3]
I-5 3rd gen - Low Heat - top spec processor
4]
SSD Drive - Win 8 - Cossair - GTX 120GB

Now the differences are :-

Silver has no HDD
Has an RME - AES 32 Hammerfall Card - my sound card
No DVD Rom
No Software - except win 8

Black has 10 HDD's - all my 16 + + TB of music is here;
DVD Rom
Win 8
J River
Foobar
J Play - mini
dB Power Amp - Ripper

 

[bhagwan]

..and I am going to enjoy CDs and Vinyls till people figure out computer audio Cannot afford to sink money in stuff which not only is confusing now but going to get obsolete soon.

Folks , keep up the research and let us know :thumbsup:.

Sir,

a]
Buy the CD's & LP's

b]
Play them - Listen to music & enjoy it

c]
Do not play the computer game if you are not ready & 100 % committed to it

d]
However, if you do decide to go into it - there will be no turn back - at least that has been the case for me... Always have owned 2 CD Players at 1 point in time & Now I do not own any - some craze thing has happened....

c]
It is not that expensive - relative I know - but the 'research' is done - I have done it for 4 years & this is the 1st time I am talking / writing about it.
imho it is a 'breakthrough & some thing you can stay with for a while.

d]
Build 2 machines - as I have specified from 1 post above in green.
Connect to your DAC i.e. if you have a dedicated DAC - else this will be an expensive exercise;;

Arjun you will not regret this;

:licklips:

 

[mbhangui]

I too never believed that J Play was better - simply cause it never sounded better;

However, the magic only happens when you do :-

Win 8
2 Machines
Version 5.1
Ultra Mode
Hibernate ON

Once the above is 'done' with the help of 2 OK Specked Machines - will you hear the difference & what a difference it is;;;;

From an earlier post :-

I think I understand what you have experienced. By having two machines what is achieved is

1) The Box that connects to DAC does nothing other than sending the audio bits to the dac. There are no additional programs running on this machine (other than jplay and some minimal processes/programs to run the machine). This reduces the latency to bare minimum and hence must be reducing the jitter to bare minimum

2) The machine which has all the media plays no role in audio. It is simply streaming the data to machine 1. All gui, control, etc is being done on this machine. Any performance issue on this machine due to running the GUI and other programs do not affect audio as this machine has no role to play in audio.

WHich makes me believe that the same effect could be achieved if foobar supports streaming and foobar is installed on machine 1 instead of jplay

While searching, came across another project which has optimized audio playback by reducing jitter by replacing the windows explorer with its own explorer.

cMP | Main / HomePage

What you have achieved by having to machines is one headless PC. As per the article here http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CPlay.SoftwareInducedJitter

"Headless PCs is applicable to all options and aims to remove the video/display, keyboard and mouse of the streaming PC.

 

[bhagwan]

I think I understand what you have experienced.

"Headless PCs is applicable to all options and aims to remove the video/display, keyboard and mouse of the streaming PC.

Partially Correct;
Both my Machines run without Display / Keyboard / Mouse
The SM is 100 % bare.
The BM is controlled by RDP [Remote Desk Top]

However, what you say about :-

Which makes me believe that the same effect could be achieved if foobar supports streaming and foobar is installed on machine 1 instead of jplay

Was done by me - this is what I did for 2 + years.
However, the new JPlay 5.1 was / is far far superior.

I always had 2 machines. I even placed them in different rooms / apartments etc. Physical Noise etc. etc.
All this worked & helped & the sound got better - but only by 2 / 5 / 7 percent.
This 2 machine - ground up - build & software change has provided me with a 'leap' in audio performance;
That is the only reason I am writing about it here & am interested in getting FM's to try and change - the improvement is vast & cannot be ignored...

The Next Step for me is to get this :-
Total Commander - Download
Install it & get it to 'work'
Not easy - since I am on RDP - but that may provide me a 'further' improvement.
It is on the cards - I will do it soon;

First, I will try the Cat 7 cable & report on that & next step will be this;

 

[arj]

cMP | Main / HomePage

What you have achieved by having to machines is one headless PC. As per the article here http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CPlay.SoftwareInducedJitter

btw was going thru the components here and came across this quote

remove red 5V lines from USB connector end. Do same for ground pins. Lift tiny plastic flap and pin should slide out. Using 5V Molex cable, connect reds (2 from USB and one from Molex) and blacks

For those who came to the Bangalore Hifi meet and attended Siva's session might remember this point made by him as well. Tis is what Is done within many of the audiophile USB cables as well to make a difference.. Apparently the power line does corrupt the data

Maybe there is some truth to differences in USB cables and this is the reason ?

 

[mbhangui]

and this explains why quality of the USB cables is important

Computer Audio Asylum: USB cables and sound by John Swenson

Something I read here, which describes the situation I am in

"I went on a long journey...of spiritual discovery and travelled many days and nights with no food or drink. In a state of near delerium, I came across a clearing in the trees where I fell to my knees due to exhaustion, dehydration and a mild case of hunger-induced hypoglycemia. It was there I had a vision.

The Spirit of the Great Audio Shaman (tm) said to me:

"You will hear the difference... if you believe!"

I want to hear it! I want to believe! I don't want to be a wet-blanket nay-sayer pessimist party pooper and miss out on the joy of being a flesh and bone spiritual creature - a human audiophile!

Any-hoo. Just saying; don't be afraid of being just a little bit skeptical. Never killed anyone. Except the odd hypersensitive subjectivist... "

 

[malvai]

@Bhagwan:
One thing i don't understand is this: why does one need a very high specced machine (in this case- 2) for mere playback?

I can understand why one would need 8GB ram... but why does one need a very high specced processor?

We are just playing music -- not recording...

 

[mbhangui]

@Bhagwan:
One thing i don't understand is this: why does one need a very high specced machine (in this case- 2) for mere playback?

I can understand why one would need 8GB ram... but why does one need a very high specced processor?

We are just playing music -- not recording...

My guess is only machine 1 need to be highly specced (unless a moderate specced machine will affect streaming over the net which IMO shouldn't happen).

 

[bhagwan]

@Bhagwan:
One thing i don't understand is this: why does one need a very high specced machine (in this case- 2) for mere playback?

I can understand why one would need 8GB ram... but why does one need a very high specced processor?

We are just playing music -- not recording...

@ Malvai;
I am sorry, but I do not have an answer to / for your question.
This is what the 2 of them @ J Play told me when I met them.
I followed their instructions to the 'T'

I just know 1 thing.
What ever they said, I did & the result is 'outstanding'
So, I do not want to make any changes- do it just like what they said.

BTW - I always had 2 machines - SM & BM & I had tried this 2 machine playback on win 7 - 64 & it showed promise - this was before I went to Munich.
Since I had axcess to the 2 of them & they agreed to speak with me - I assumed that what they said / suggested would work & I went with it.
hyeah:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Any-hoo. Just saying; don't be afraid of being just a little bit skeptical. Never killed anyone. Except the odd hypersensitive subjectivist...

At your service, sir!

why does one need a very high specced processor?

Maybe, to run Windows?

I don't know. The usual wisdom is that, for audio, low-spec is good spec. Low power consumption, low heat, low noise.

(news from elsewhere, via my browsing yesterday: Noctua, my favourite fan company, have now demoed the Active Noise Cancellation CPU cooler. Yes: it has a mic and speaker system built into it, and, in so far as a youtube video can tell us, it looks impressive. Second: Nofan produce a new passive cooler, with (your guessed! No Fan!) that copes with much higher-spec CPUs than their previous model. One potential problem for many of us, though, is the considerably higher ambient temperatures that are are starting point when it comes to heat. But it is all good development)

It seems that sound processing in Windows, however much I hate MS, has improved. Linux continues to suffer from lack of proprietary device drivers because so many of the manufacturers don't think we are worth bothering with. At least... there are a couple of guys who have done good work on stuff like interrupt balancing and higher priority for sound processes. I am not cynical about this, whatever the OS: on my PC, it didn't simply improve the sound, it made it possible! A dedicated sound-playing OS might be good --- but then, so far as embedded devices go, I guess it is there already, and probably Linux.

 

[Audiodoc]

Without air they will be no music. Blissful silence as on the moon.

Sound waves need a medium to propagate as compressions and rarefactions.

Filtering air or having it at different pressures may have an effect. Sound on Mount Everest may sound different than at sea level.

 

[jls001]

Wow, wow, wow.... so much has happened on this thread and I have been blissfully unaware. And thankfully it has been forked without further disturbing sidvee's thread.

I just wanted to report here my listening impressions last Saturday of Bhagwan's new two-PC setup running JPlay in the hibernate mode.

Long story short: the sound is damned near the level of the 3-box dCS Scarlatti stack.

Long story: The new source has a very fine synergy with the DAD DAC and the Allnic line level pre-amp. The holographic and three-dimensional imaging that the Scarlattis do so well is back. And I think I heard a superior tonality in the new setup. Specifically the percussion on Seal's I'm Your Man gained a beautiful texture I had never heard before in any setup. The downside to the ruthless transparency of his system is that it shows that this particular track is rather poorly mastered. I guess this is a negative aspect of having arrived at the highest resolution and transparency; nevertheless, these are milestones worth striving for.

On the use of different cables: Bhagwan's system is highly resolving and transparent. I will not be surprised if the new Ethernet cable brings positive improvements. Just as a Spectra AES/EBU cable was bettered by an Italian number whose name I can't recall, which in turn was bettered by a Belden, then by a Mogami, then finally by a bespoke Bertram silver. And all these cables happily carried 1s and 0s in the frame structure ordained by the European Broadcasting Union.





OT: My "new" speaker stands courtesy Bhagwan

They are heavy - about 70 kilos each

 

[bhagwan]

I just wanted to report here my listening impressions last Saturday of Bhagwan's new two-PC setup running JPlay in the hibernate mode.
Long story short: the sound is damned near the level of the 3-box dCS Scarlatti stack.

Sir,
That is a 'tall' statement;
Thank You.
However, all I can add is - imagine now - if I had the dCS @ Home - What would have happened - but alas;;;:sad:
But, thanks for your precious time & visit.
Mr. Vinay Arora from ND also visited after you;
http://www.hifivision.com/av-lounge/20096-listening-impression-shantis-system-30.html#post504312
This is the link to his post

 

[bhagwan]

OT: My "new" speaker stands courtesy Bhagwan

They are heavy - about 70 kilos each

This is Not O/T - my thread it is - I am 100 % ok with it here;

You still need to add the 3 things I asked you to add.
Please do it - the sound will further improve.

These were my older TAD Stands.