Jitter - Help Trying To Hear & ID It

[TCHeN]

Hey,

The title says it all... I'm trying to hear and identify jitter in my setup, or at least understand what it exactly is - or should sound like.

Might be a case of upgrade-itis and to buy myself the new Allo transports, or just a desire to mess around with my setup.

Background: For years I've used CD players, and most recently I've graduated to ripping my CDs and using a PC and a Raspberry Pi - via Toslink to DAC.

Appreciate all the help from the good folks at HFV.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Hi,

I guess one way to to 'hear' it would be to compare the same recording played with and without a good external DAC.

 

[greenhorn]

google lead me here - hope it helps you too!
what does jitter ACTUALLY sound like?

 

[bornfi]

Based on my experience, jitter is about clarity. Think of the feeling when you suddenly move from 720p to 1080p. Or the other way is, less of jitter, more you feel like that you can touch the instruments and singers. Sounds funny but that is what it is.

 

[reignofchaos]

Based on my experience, jitter is about clarity. Think of the feeling when you suddenly move from 720p to 1080p. Or the other way is, less of jitter, more you feel like that you can touch the instruments and singers. Sounds funny but that is what it is.

Yep this is exactly what I felt too. It was as if a veil was lifted off the presentation.

Extreme jitter can lead to drop outs.

 

[drkrack]

google lead me here - hope it helps you too!
what does jitter ACTUALLY sound like?

Very informative article thanks for sharing.
I was pretty clear about the noise jitter, never understood the concept of clock jitter completely. The provided audio samples at the end of the article should clear the doubts of many. I always thought that it is related to the quality of recording which makes such distortion ; but it may not be the case always.


@OP it also depends upon how resolving your speakers are, you'd hear a jitter if your speakers are very resolving and capable. You may not make it in Less resolving ones. I could make out a jitter easily in Tannoy revolution dc6 or MA RX6 but not in BA26.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nikhil]

This is a great topic and it really helps to know what jitter really sounds like.
It's important to know that jitter is a "timing problem"

Adding to what has been said earlier, when listening to music with jitter you "hear" jitter as a sort of smearing of the sound.
As you reduce jitter you get much better clarity and hear small details.

 

[prem]

IME, low level information reduces with jitter. I am not sure if it affects timing.

Honestly it's very difficult by listening to say if jitter is present. With digital there's also the huge problem of RF riding on the signal

 

[TCHeN]

Hi,

I guess one way to to 'hear' it would be to compare the same recording played with and without a good external DAC.

Hmmm... not sure about this. Open can of worms where it will be an endless debate about what's a good external DAC.

Most chip based DACs are pretty much great out of the box... and as you go up the chain the ROI is only marginal... or with the use of better components like LPSU. The only real "perceivable" difference is in the NOS and the FPGA... but that's something I've limited experience with.

 

[TCHeN]

google lead me here - hope it helps you too!
what does jitter ACTUALLY sound like?

This helped a lot. The YT video I saw before and I agree, it's 5 minutes I'm never getting back... not to mention typical of the industry that goes great lengths to discuss and discredit a problem, but cannot really explain it in layman's terms or provide actual proof.

The article and the samples were excellent. Take it with a pinch of salt... I actually tripped on 2s RMS random for both tracks, Pink Floyd and Day One. Not sure if everybody is that perceptible or (most likely) tripped on different values... but this was an excellent case study and proof that gave me some understanding of what jitter is and how to identify it.

Many thanks and much appreciated.

 

[TCHeN]

Based on my experience, jitter is about clarity. Think of the feeling when you suddenly move from 720p to 1080p. Or the other way is, less of jitter, more you feel like that you can touch the instruments and singers. Sounds funny but that is what it is.

The video analogy makes more sense... and depending on the music and the whiskey I'm on, I'm pretty certain I can touch most artists and instruments.

Many thanks.

Yep this is exactly what I felt too. It was as if a veil was lifted off the presentation.

Extreme jitter can lead to drop outs.

Hmmm... not entirely in agreement with the veil being lifted off. I had the same experience with moving to Toslink, and it was because of lowered noise floor and elimination of electrical noise. Based that (and my purely subjective experience) I'd put that in a different boat from jitter.

But again raises the question... why is everybody so easily blaming jitter for everything... but cannot give actual examples and proof of what it is.

Many thanks for your inputs.

 

[TCHeN]

@OP it also depends upon how resolving your speakers are, you'd hear a jitter if your speakers are very resolving and capable. You may not make it in Less resolving ones. I could make out a jitter easily in Tannoy revolution dc6 or MA RX6 but not in BA26.

MA RX8. PC based setup in the past, now moved to server based streaming setup via Toslink. The difference has been night and day... but based on (my search and findings) that's elimination or lowering of noise floor and electrical noise that's making the difference in my case.

Jitter is something I still cannot hear... and by all accounts I should hear it because I'm on Toslink... but in my case that's proven to be hugely beneficial in terms of improving SQ.

Coming to jitter, still trying to ID it my setup... though now I've a better idea of what to look for.

Many thanks.

 

[TCHeN]

This is a great topic and it really helps to know what jitter really sounds like.
It's important to know that jitter is a "timing problem"

Adding to what has been said earlier, when listening to music with jitter you "hear" jitter as a sort of smearing of the sound.
As you reduce jitter you get much better clarity and hear small details.

I understand that "timing problem"... thanks to the article linked to by @greenhorn.

Smearing, well I understand the word, not sure though in the audio context. Personally the clarity and detail has been greatly enhanced in my setup with the addition of a streaming server, and upgrading to a better quality DAC.

Jitter though still remains something I'm trying to ID.

Many thanks.

 

[TCHeN]

IME, low level information reduces with jitter. I am not sure if it affects timing.

Honestly it's very difficult by listening to say if jitter is present. With digital there's also the huge problem of RF riding on the signal

Thanks. Does weigh in on my own experience. Extremely hard to hear and identify.

I have to a great extent eliminated RF from the equation by going the route of Toslink and the addition of a streaming server.

 

[reignofchaos]

Hmmm... not entirely in agreement with the veil being lifted off. I had the same experience with moving to Toslink, and it was because of lowered noise floor and elimination of electrical noise. Based that (and my purely subjective experience) I'd put that in a different boat from jitter.

What was the interface before toslink? Toslink is jitter prone and has a minimum of 200ps of additional jitter compared to a clean coax connection.

 

[TCHeN]

What was the interface before toslink? Toslink is jitter prone and has a minimum of 200ps of additional jitter compared to a clean coax connection.

Tried both coaxial and USB and even HDMI via AVR, plus lots of sound cards - both Windows PCs and Macs. Then moved to streaming and had to try Toslink as a necessity with the addition of Chromecast Audio in my setup and it was a major revelation.

I've tried various Toslink cables... from the routine Amazon/Monoprice and BlueRigger to the audiophile glass Toslink variants... and in every instance with the elimination of noise floor, Toslink won hands down for me.

Coming to the jitter introduction with Toslink... well that's the point of this thread. I want to know if it's there in my setup and how to identify it. If I can hear/identify it then I'd consider the next semi-upgrade with transports from Allo.

Thanks much for your inputs.

 

[square_wave]

Hmmm... not sure about this. Open can of worms where it will be an endless debate about what's a good external DAC.

Most chip based DACs are pretty much great out of the box... and as you go up the chain the ROI is only marginal... or with the use of better components like LPSU. The only real "perceivable" difference is in the NOS and the FPGA... but that's something I've limited experience with.

Not really. Even with normal chip dacs, the lesser ones and the better ones sound quite different if you are an attentive listener.

With the better ones, the images are lifelike with cleaner edges defining each image in the musical space, better communication of the music with great dynamics and truer tonal quality.

The lesser ones sound nice and pleasant but have smeared images, lesser dynamics. Good for casual listening.

 

[Nikhil]

Smearing, well I understand the word, not sure though in the audio context. Personally the clarity and detail has been greatly enhanced in my setup with the addition of a streaming server, and upgrading to a better quality DAC.

Jitter though still remains something I'm trying to ID.

Many thanks.

Smearing refers to the blurring of the stereo image or sound stage.

 

[kane]

Indeed an informative topic and yes plenty of variables here.

as the OP mentioned what do we listen for that will tell us Jitter from say a case of an low quality recording or say an mp3 versus flac

While most players glorify or somehow tweak mp3 by trying to fix the compressed parts of the song, that what comes out may sound better to some and perceived notion of better quality sound.

I have played mp3 and flacs of the same song to younger people ( assuming that younger people due to age can hear better bit of the audio spectrum.) out of 12 younger teenagers 8 of them like the sound of mp3's - this was played without any equalizer presets and the amp was set at direct mode.

whereas out of 4 people who were 35 years and above from them 3 of them liked the flacs


this has left me confused as i thought age made us hear less


I am now fixed to an audio setup that involves a sparky board and kali reclocker and piano 2.1

and the sound from it is what i perceived to be the cleanest and most revealing.


The Kali reclocker is supposed to remove jitter and when i removed kali from the setup i did hear a difference in the sound. but to pin that difference as jitter is what confuses me as well.

 

[Her Master's Voice]

Not really. Even with normal chip dacs, the lesser ones and the better ones sound quite different if you are an attentive listener.

With the better ones, the images are lifelike with cleaner edges defining each image in the musical space, better communication of the music with great dynamics and truer tonal quality.

The lesser ones sound nice and pleasant but have smeared images, lesser dynamics. Good for casual listening.

Can you name a few of the better and lesser DAC chips? Just for me to better understand.