LCD vs Plasma - Fact vs Myth

[BLASTO]

it cannot show judder free 24p movies.

Does that mean all LCDs show judder free 24p movies?
You need to be more specific. This is not specific to plasmas.

 

[sanjay0864]

Well its because certain tvs have AMP,Motionflow etc like the ones you find in samsung and sony which remove judder ,with samsungs being more effective.
Even plasma makers like samsung are implementing it on their tvs offcourse it works differently compared to lcd approach.

The truth is, that judder is more of a problem with LCDs. Infact Plasmas have long been able to display judder free 24p unlike LCD which has major problems with it. Which is why all LCD manufacturers keep experimenting, not too succesfully, with different techniques and refresh rates, such as 100hz, 120hz, 240hz etc. etc. etc....

PS: Why is it so hard for some people to accept the truth instead of behaving like a tv salesman, ie. clueless?

 

[vramak]

Adder - As far as I know, judder (and even motion blur) is an inherent quality of movies because 24p is a poor framerate for capturing and playing back motion. Any attempt to minimize judder will make movies get that documentary feel and judder reduction should be turned-off if possible to maintain the original quality of the movie.

Movies inherently have more judder and motion blur than what any plasma or LCD is capable of inducing. Games and TV programs run at 30hz or 60hz which won't require any pulldown process (which might induce extra judder than what is in the source).

Summarily, judder isn't something anyone needs to worry about. It's intentional in movies and it's non-existent in games and TV programs.

 

[BLASTO]

So i would say you get more screen size per buck in plasmas not necessarily better PQ.

I am not sure whether I understood your point.
Do you mean that V10 does not offer a good PQ or do you mean that there are LCDs at that price point(1.3L) which offer better PQ?

Well like i said before i was generally speaking. the plasma be it the pioneer kuro still has it flaws,it also effected by ABL,its also effected by loss of contrast due to glare,it cannot show judder free 24p movies.

So it all comes down to this whats your viewing conditions and your preference and criteria.

As far as the V10 its also effected by the rising black levels,ABL,glare,phopor trail etc.
those deep blacks can be seen only at night or dark viewing conditions.

In case you read some professional reviews lately many mention specifically about the plasma daytime black or the effect of ambient light in plasmas.

So what i am saying just like you discount the IR and burn in.buyers will also discount the viewing angles which is often the trump card for pro plasma and fanboys,their earlier trump card was contrast.
so it all comes down to what you live with and without.

Anyway with respect to your potential purchase honestly i don't know why one would buy a V10 if the better V20 is around the corner.
unlike last years model where the G10 and V10 where the same or very close in contrast ratio,this year the V20 panels have much deeper blacks then the g20

Iam not sure you answered his question??

 

[adder]

Does that mean all LCDs show judder free 24p movies?
You need to be more specific. This is not specific to plasmas.

off course not all lcds show,that was with respect to kuro,the point of bring the kuro was, they still have flaws .

The truth is, that judder is more of a problem with LCDs. Infact Plasmas have long been able to display judder free 24p unlike LCD which has major problems with it. Which is why all LCD manufacturers keep experimenting, not too succesfully, with different techniques and refresh rates, such as 100hz, 120hz, 240hz etc. etc. etc....

PS: Why is it so hard for some people to accept the truth instead of behaving like a tv salesman, ie. clueless?

I am sorry but have you played planet earth blu ray,go play them in a plasma and compare it to say the samsung lcds with AMP,let me know which is good the stutter/jitter free or less samsung or the jittery plasmas.

Infact why do you think plasma makers are coming up with their own versions to tackle this problem,if its wasn't a problem in plasmas.Their version is different approach .

what truth ?
lets get one thing straight ,think about it i mean plasma are cheaper to buy if the plasma was so much better .why do you think plasma have roughly around 10% of the tv marker world over.One of main reason why people buy lcds is because they simply prefer it and you can't argue with that.
Many people in other forums have even switched over from plasmas to lcds and some even from kuro.

Even one of moderator in avsforums who was pro plasma,closing any thread of plasma vs lcd that had some hint of lcds in winning state with tempers flying,now has become neutral why because he now has a samsung LED lcd apart from the kuro or was it a panasonic plasma.

 

[adder]

Iam not sure you answered his question??

Well in what perspective is panasonic V10 be a winner certainly not in my book,it still has all the very flaws of plasma,that is why i said it depends on the individuals criteria and real world viewing conditions not pitch black rooms.

these kinds of debates was done well before you or the thread starter joined this forum,ultimately the conclusions was leave it to the individual preference.

 

[BLASTO]

Adder - As far as I know, judder (and even motion blur) is an inherent quality of movies because 24p is a poor framerate for capturing and playing back motion. Any attempt to minimize judder will make movies get that documentary feel and judder reduction should be turned-off if possible to maintain the original quality of the movie.

Not quite.
24p is not a poor framerate.
Each frame is shown sufficiently longer in the screen to make up for it. It has its own advantages.
Also film being analog, the effects of transition are mostly taken care of. Also a lots of projectors have inbuilt 24p support. Problem comes only when you try to capture this information in digital.

A TV which is perfectly capable of playing 24p should have a refresh rate of multiples of 24 (ie 24, 48, 72, 96 etc). But conventional TVs have refresh rates in multiples of 60. That is when the problem appears.

Movies inherently have more judder and motion blur than what any plasma or LCD is capable of inducing.

Again these are not inherent to movies. It is an artifact which gets introduced when converting 24p to 30p (or 60p) by purely digital means. Cannot be avoided.

It can be prevented in TVs by supporting one of the above refresh rates. Pure 24p TV can show a lot of 'flickering' while highers refresh rates do not.

Also all DVD movies (infact none) are not 24p.

 

[vramak]

A TV which is perfectly capable of playing 24p should have a refresh rate of multiples of 24 (ie 24, 48, 72, 96 etc). But conventional TVs have refresh rates in multiples of 60. That is when the problem appears.

120Hz, 240Hz (LCD) and 600Hz (plasma) are multiples of 24Hz.

 

[longshanks]

it cannot show judder free 24p movies.

I guess you said in one your earlier posts that removing judder gives a handycam effect and u you don't like that effect produced by Samsung LCD.Are you contradicting yourself here? or else you forgot what you posted earlier.

Removing Judder does take away the film feel and make the motion look more real to life,a very few companies are capable of doing it properly and when it is done right it does look good for certain types of viewing material.Removing Judder in video is definitely good for eyes.

Well its because certain tvs have AMP,Motionflow etc like the ones you find in samsung and sony which remove judder ,

Motionflow by Sony removes zero judder.

with samsungs being more effective.
Even plasma makers like samsung are implementing it on their tvs offcourse it works differently compared to lcd approach.

I guess again you are contradicting to your previous statement where you said samsung is overdoing it and also inducing the handy cam effect which you did not like.

you in fact said that you like sony's motion flow which according to you does less of judder removal than sony(IMO zero judder removal).

About kuro being flawed, i dont know which kuro you've seen, so let me say that no flat panel is perfect, but among the ones available kuro does many things so much better than any other flat panel tv so a couple of flaws it has is quite negligible.

I does not even matter if the inventor of Kuro buys an LCD cause he likes it better, Kuro still as of day is the best flat panel tv for watching HD.

No matter how hard they try LCD manufacturers cannot display videos with the depth what plasma can for the simple reason that the contrast wont work at pixel level, so the wallpaper effect is highly noticeable.

 

[KonfuSed]

@Adder, I used to respect your posts regarding your stand for the differences between Plasma and LCD's. But now I'm sorry to say that you are not exactly answering the question of dotMac and just beating around the bush. He just wants to know which 50 inch LCD TV at the price point of 1.3L will be as good or better than a Panasonic 50V10 TV (Ok, as you said V10 might not the best TV but one of the best for sure, atleast at that price point). Is there any such TV in that price point, little bit of here and there is also fine? If not then what is the price of the 50 inch LCD TV which is as good as or better than Panasonic 50V10. Even I'm looking forward for that answer and would help me to decide my next TV for sure. Please state the model numbers of those LCD's.

 

[BLASTO]

He just wants to know which 50 inch LCD TV at the price point of 1.3L will be as good or better than a Panasonic 50V10 TV

Hey Konfused, I can for sure point you to a TV with atleast 90% of capabilities of V10 in half the price.. But alas it is a plasma too.

The samsung 50B550 plasma. IMO, It is more VFM than the V10. The differences between them are not as great to command 65k (again IMO).

Even for argument sake if we assume there exists an LCD comparable to the V10 at 1.3L. I can bet my head that there is none in the price range of the B550/C550 category which even comes close. hyeah:

And IMPO, V10 is over priced in india as does all other panasonic plasmas other than the 42" models.

 

[adder]

I guess you said in one your earlier posts that removing judder gives a handycam effect and u you don't like that effect produced by Samsung LCD.Are you contradicting yourself here? or else you forgot what you posted earlier

I guess again you are contradicting to your previous statement where you said samsung is overdoing it and also inducing the handy cam effect which you did not like.
you in fact said that you like sony's motion flow which according to you does less of judder removal than sony(IMO zero judder removal).
Removing Judder does take away the film feel and make the motion look more real to life,a very few companies are capable of doing it properly and when it is done right it does look good for certain types of viewing material.Removing Judder in video is definitely good for eyes.

I did say some prefer them and other don't ,i also said i am in favour of digital videos if you remember.in the other place i gave the source in neutrals perspective.highlighting the pros and cons of sony and samsung as per OP/TS request,i never said i prefer which tech.

Motionflow by Sony removes zero judder.

not true they do remove judder .

soruce cnet

The Sony KDL-46XBR's Motion Flow anti-judder feature is one of the best we've seen to date.

their reason it doesn't cause to much of a video like feel,but it does remove judder.

About kuro being flawed, i dont know which kuro you've seen, so let me say that no flat panel is perfect, but among the ones available kuro does many things so much better than any other flat panel tv so a couple of flaws it has is quite negligible.

I does not even matter if the inventor of Kuro buys an LCD cause he likes it better, Kuro still as of day is the best flat panel tv for watching HD.

No matter how hard they try LCD manufacturers cannot display videos with the depth what plasma can for the simple reason that the contrast wont work at pixel level, so the wallpaper effect is highly noticeable.

sure the kuro does somethings better at the same time so does lcd in some other areas.
Remeber the contrast of display is not only with deep blacks but with bright whites and what good is those deep blacks if you don't see them,due to glare.

Kuro may be the best flat panel depending again one ones criteria.Now one is challenging the kuros strengths but its doesn't mean one shouldn't highlight the weakness.

 

[sam9s]

The 50U320 is listed with a maximum power consumption of 320W. Now keep in mind that this is the 'maximum' consumption and as stated earlier, only possible if you had a totally white screen with full brightness on and at all times. Obviously not a real or practical scenario ofr even aminute, let alone all the time. Basically, Plasma technology uses different levels of power at different times based on the picture displayed and also the picture settings set in the TV. LCDs on the other hand use the same level of power at all times, thus regardless of what settings you use and what is played on the screen, a LCD consumes the maximum rated power at all times. As a matter of fact, most reviewers have reported that a properly calibirated plasma ends up using only slightly more power (average consumption) than most LCDs of the same size.
Bottom line, if you buy a LCD instead of a Plasma, please let be for any other reason but this myth of very high power consumption of Plasma TVs

You are totally wrong here, you got the fact right but twisted it according to your belief of Plasma being slightly more power (average consumption) than most LCDs of the same size.

You are right when you say that plasma technology uses different levels of power at different times based on the picture displayed......to put it precisely ..... .. each pixel element in a Plasma screen is an individual light source that is illuminated as needed............, that sounds as energy efficient where as it is not.....as this is directly related to the TV resolution and Brightness.
Increase the resolution, you increase the power consuption, Increase the brightness, again you increase the power consumption simply for the fact that intensity of light from each pixel must be increased to brighten the picture as a whole.

LCD On the other always has a backlight running, and rather than lighting up pixels, an LCD will BLOCK them, so the light doesnt get through. That means a relatively steady power consumption for LCD. Since the pixels reside in the panel, and not the backlight, the LCD power useage is independent of resolution or brightness

Infact todays gen LCD uses technologies that can conserve additional power by automatically turning the backlight down during dark scenes and up during bright scenes.......

Here is a chart of loads of LCDs and Plasma compared on their power consumption........every one can compare quite easily.....

The chart: HDTV power consumption compared - CNET Reviews

Finally CNET did a power shootout for LCD and Plasma in 2009 and the conclusion was as follows....

No discussion of TV power use would be complete without a bit of perspective. For households that pay somewhere near the average retail cost for energy--11.55 cents per kilowatt per hour in 2009--and that watch near the average amount per TV--about 5.2 hours per day--the cost to watch a 50-inch 1080p plasma TV is about $64 per year in the calibrated light output mode (see How We Test). The average 52- to 55-inch LCD TV costs about $29 per year for the same light output, and, of course, smaller TVs use less energy. Sure, both electricity costs and average daily TV use are increasing steadily every year; however, those amounts still don't take a major chunk out of most household budgets

 

[adder]

@Adder, I used to respect your posts regarding your stand for the differences between Plasma and LCD's. But now I'm sorry to say that you are not exactly answering the question of dotMac and just beating around the bush. He just wants to know which 50 inch LCD TV at the price point of 1.3L will be as good or better than a Panasonic 50V10 TV (Ok, as you said V10 might not the best TV but one of the best for sure, atleast at that price point). Is there any such TV in that price point, little bit of here and there is also fine? If not then what is the price of the 50 inch LCD TV which is as good as or better than Panasonic 50V10. Even I'm looking forward for that answer and would help me to decide my next TV for sure. Please state the model numbers of those LCD's.

Well again it depends upon various factors like your viewing conditions,content you watch.
Lastly one can't get any 50" lcds in that price range or atleast from samsung/sony or the philips who i feel are the true challengers to the plasmas.
edit no 50" sized lcds are available in that price range

 

[gadgetcrazy]

I have started loving these Plasma V LCD fights!

 

[sam9s]

^^ Should'nt you thank us for the entertainment.......

 

[gadgetcrazy]

Of course. I learn a little everytime you guys get into a fight!

 

[KonfuSed]

Well again it depends upon various factors like your viewing conditions,content you watch.
Lastly one can't get any 50" lcds in that price range or atleast from samsung/sony or the philips who i feel are the true challengers to the plasmas.
edit no 50" sized lcds are available in that price range

Viewing condition is normal room light or bit darker. Bright rooms don't give me the feeling of being with the movie. Mostly I watch Hi-def be it Blu-ray or downloads and some TV (football, cricket, news and occasional movies).
Well, in that case anyway you've answered my query. I won't get anything better than the Panasonic for that money and if I want something better I'll have to shell out may be double or triple the amount. So I'm gonna stick to Plasmas only, for a long time. Atleast I'll get the best value for the money I spend. Am I right?

@Blasto, I know but I'm quite a bit worried about how last years LG was and hence I'll stick to Panasonic as of now and keep my fingers crossed that they'll reduce the price. Will check how the Samsung is compared to Panasonic.
Thanks guys..

 

[adder]

Viewing condition is normal room light or bit darker. Bright rooms don't give me the feeling of being with the movie. Mostly I watch Hi-def be it Blu-ray or downloads and some TV (football, cricket, news and occasional movies).
Well, in that case anyway you've answered my query. I won't get anything better than the Panasonic for that money and if I want something better I'll have to shell out may be double or triple the amount. So I'm gonna stick to Plasmas only, for a long time. Atleast I'll get the best value for the money I spend. Am I right?

@Blasto, I know but I'm quite a bit worried about how last years LG was and hence I'll stick to Panasonic as of now and keep my fingers crossed that they'll reduce the price. Will check how the Samsung is compared to Panasonic.
Thanks guys..

Well i don't think lcds above 46/47" are going to be in anywhere close to price bracket of this year plasmas,perhaps next year .
In plasmas better wait for all the 2010 2d plasma models to arrive.

 

[BLASTO]

@Blasto, I know but I'm quite a bit worried about how last years LG was and hence I'll stick to Panasonic as of now and keep my fingers crossed that they'll reduce the price. Will check how the Samsung is compared to Panasonic.
Thanks guys..

Well, LG is not the brand which comes to mind when talking about plasmas. Quite a bit in LCDs but not plasmas. Yes they make VFM and average customer oriented products but not good plasmas compared to competetion. This is my view from yesteryear models.

In my experience and demo, the Samsung and LG are not in he same league. If anything panasonic and samsung are in the same league and LG is catching up.

The international prices of panasonic plasmas are in par with samsung. Only in india it is almost double. It is not worth the price is what I mean.

Check below.

Panasonic 50" U1 is $942 = 47k Rs. It is sold for 1.3L in india!!
Amazon.com: Panasonic VIERA U1 Series TC-P50U1 50-Inch 1080p Plasma HDTV: Electronics

Samsung 50" B550 is $1029 = 51.5k. It is sold for 70k in india.
Amazon.com: Samsung PN50B550 50-Inch 1080p Plasma HDTV: Electronics

Panasonic plasmas >42" are not worth their prices in india. You might stick with them but samsungs are a better bet.


Also, If you chose panasonic, wait for the V20 series to be released.