LCD vs Plasma - Fact vs Myth

Well i don't think lcds above 46/47" are going to be in anywhere close to price bracket of this year plasmas,perhaps next year .
In plasmas better wait for all the 2010 2d plasma models to arrive.

May be, you could be right with the line up of 2010 2D plasma. But who knows, after full LED, the electronics giants might develop a working technology based on OLEDs :clapping:. This would further lower the LCD-LED prices. Desperately waiting for that day:eek:hyeah:.
 
May be, you could be right with the line up of 2010 2D plasma. But who knows, after full LED, the electronics giants might develop a working technology based on OLEDs :clapping:. This would further lower the LCD-LED prices. Desperately waiting for that day:eek:hyeah:.

The biggest working OLED is 15" size, developed by LG and costs Rs. 2 lacs (but still not in commercial oroduction). Source: What Hi-Fi May issue.
So i dont think we can expect a working 40" oled in near future being cheaper than LCDs.
 
The biggest working OLED is 15" size, developed by LG and costs Rs. 2 lacs (but still not in commercial oroduction). Source: What Hi-Fi May issue.
So i dont think we can expect a working 40" oled in near future being cheaper than LCDs.

Exactly the price isn't the only drawback,the panel life still doesn't match the current lcd or plasma life,but then again i seriously doubt whether the other electronics components like PSU can keep up with panel.

A 40" OLED won't be happening even till 2012 Olympics.By then local dimming will be quite common and we will see the samsung bluephase lcd tech hitting the streets,if their specs are to be believed its improved in pretty much every aspect compared to todays lcd.
 
Anyway with respect to your potential purchase honestly i don't know why one would buy a V10 if the better V20 is around the corner.
unlike last years model where the G10 and V10 where the same or very close in contrast ratio,this year the V20 panels have much deeper blacks then the g20

I will not be buying a V10. I just do not have so much money ;)
But I do admire that TV. VT20 is going to take that crown in my heart. :lol:
For me its like a wish to own a Ferrari :licklips:

I will be settling for the 50" Samsung or LGs for the VFM. Anyways thats off-topic here :)

Well like i said before i was generally speaking. the plasma be it the pioneer kuro still has it flaws,it also effected by ABL,its also effected by loss of contrast due to glare,it cannot show judder free 24p movies.

As far as the V10 its also effected by the rising black levels,ABL,glare,phopor trail etc.
those deep blacks can be seen only at night or dark viewing conditions.

In case you read some professional reviews lately many mention specifically about the plasma daytime black or the effect of ambient light in plasmas.

@forum

Adder has brought up some good points that we typically get to hear. I have marked them in BOLD.
I would appreciate if experts help answer the following aspects :
1. Explain technically what each of these issues mean or help one find out?
Eg : Chk the post from Blasto : 24p explained
This sort of post allows a layman to understand whether he must worry about the inability to play a 24p movie in first place.

Effect of ABL is one stuff I still haven't understood yet. But I see it constantly mentioned by Adder who's suggestion I do care here.

2. Is it a design flaw in every Plasmas? or restricted to low priced Plasma models?
This is what this thread is for. And this what a new reader will expect to find out.
I could see that even the C series Panasonic plasma is 24p capable.
Now does it play well? I must leave that to the experts here.
But if I have understood correctly a 24p capable TV just re-adjusts its frame refresh rate to match the source.

So 24p playback is not something Plasma specific in my opinion. On the other hand Phosphor trail is a Plasma specific issue.

3. If the issue is Plasma specific, is it still relevant in 2009-10?
Eg: Burn-in is a non-issue in recent Plasmas. IR still is an issue.

4. If the issue is not-Plasma specific, is it terrible in Plasma bcoz of the limitations in PDP?
Eg: 24p playback is an issue seen on LCDs as well. Now does the PDP architecture technically makes the issue more significant?


5. How it affects an average viewer?
Eg: Assuming that a reader has a 24p source and gets a Plasma without support for 24p playback, what will the viewer get in that case?

So lets have a constructive debate on each of the aspects Adder has pointed out. Please feel free to add other topics (like Power consumption).

If its turns out to be a non-issue in recent Plasmas, it can be a candidate to go to the Myth list :)

I feel the first post should be updated once we reach on an agreement. (if we ever reach ;) )

Also add any questions(apart from the five I have suggested) that a forum reader expect to be answered here.

Anyways, I know you have already spend lot of effort in various threads to answer these queries. So this is just my humble request to answer these. I do feel a need to have a Stick post on Television section if we do see a constructive discussion on the common Plasma issues that we frequently get to here.

Cheers

PS : I omitted "rising black levels" on purpose as its limited to Panasonic Plasmas. Separate thread exists where this issue is discussed. Bringing it here does not add any value in my opinion.
 
Ambient light is a problem with Plasma TVs. I am not so sure how it could affect TVs which claim to have a reflective coating. But from the experience I have had with glossy coated LCDs in laptops (I realize the comparison is moot) I would rather not have such coatings.

For me, I would rather dim the room lighting and have darker blacks and whiter whites rather than have an LCD in a brightly lit room.
 
For me, I would rather dim the room lighting and have darker blacks and whiter whites rather than have an LCD in a brightly lit room.
+1 I prefer to compare TVs in in ideal viewing conditions only, ie. totally dark room and then simply live with the fall in quality when not watching in ideal conditions. I personally find it silly to try and match a TV to bad viewing conditions, such as showrooms.

PS: For the sake of being honest I must admit that I have two LCDs in my house other than LCD PC monitors. The fact is I cannot stand to view TV on the LCDs. For, almost always the picture on the LCDs has such an artificial and pixelated look.
 
Effect of ABL is one stuff I still haven't understood yet. But I see it constantly mentioned by Adder who's suggestion I do care here.
BTW i am posting from a WM phone so no spell check and lots of short form.

Check this post http://www.hifivision.com/televisio...-power-consumption-energy-star.html#post85441


2. Is it a design flaw in every Plasmas? or restricted to low priced Plasma models?
This is what this thread is for. And this what a new reader will expect to find out.
I could see that even the C series Panasonic plasma is 24p capable.
Now does it play well? I must leave that to the experts here.
But if I have understood correctly a 24p capable TV just re-adjusts its frame refresh rate to match the source.
So 24p playback is not something Plasma specific in my opinion.


4. If the issue is not-Plasma specific, is it terrible in Plasma bcoz of the limitations in PDP?
Eg: 24p playback is an issue seen on LCDs as well. Now does the PDP architecture technically makes the issue more significant?

read this article High-Def FAQ: What's the Big Deal About 1080p24? | High-Def Digest

Upcoming plasmas i hear have 120hz which should be better.
 
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+1 I prefer to compare TVs in in ideal viewing conditions only, ie. totally dark room and then simply live with the fall in quality when not watching in ideal conditions. I personally find it silly to try and match a TV to bad viewing conditions, such as showrooms.

PS: For the sake of being honest I must admit that I have two LCDs in my house other than LCD PC monitors. The fact is I cannot stand to view TV on the LCDs. For, almost always the picture on the LCDs has such an artificial and pixelated look.

Well again sure your preference is to watch at dark conditions,but it doesn't mean that one shouldn't mention how the tv performs in a moderately lit room let alone brightly lit.
Every one buys a tv thats suits their viewing conditions,only a few people have a dedicated TV viewing room which is dark.

The lcd is just higlighting the drawbacks of source more easily then the softer plasma picture,the pixelated picture is due to the source.
 
Well again sure your preference is to watch at dark conditions,but it doesn't mean that one shouldn't mention how the tv performs in a moderately lit room let alone brightly lit.
Every one buys a tv thats suits their viewing conditions,only a few people have a dedicated TV viewing room which is dark.

The lcd is just higlighting the drawbacks of source more easily then the softer plasma picture,the pixelated picture is due to the source.

Your use of term 'dark room condition' is a bit misleading.

Plasmas show excellent picture in a normal apartment hall with a tube light.

Ornamented point source light(s) made up ceiling will cause trouble.
An uncurtained light source like door/window opposite to the TV kills the picture.

If you have an apartment room with tube light and curtained window/door, that should fit the dark room you are mentioning.

This Iam saying from experience. Other plasma TV owners can post your experience.
 
The lcd is just higlighting the drawbacks of source more easily then the softer plasma picture,the pixelated picture is due to the source.

What do you mean by softer plasma? A 1080p plasma is shart enough..
In a way LCDs are artificially sharp? That too with endge enhancement algorithms (samsung in particular) the picture is razor sharp. (which is not necessarily a good thing).
 
Your use of term 'dark room condition' is a bit misleading.

Plasmas show excellent picture in a normal apartment hall with a tube light.

Ornamented point source light(s) made up ceiling will cause trouble.
An uncurtained light source like door/window opposite to the TV kills the picture.

If you have an apartment room with tube light and curtained window/door, that should fit the dark room you are mentioning.

This Iam saying from experience. Other plasma TV owners can post your experience.

If I am not wrong, this should be same as in case of the CRTs.

So to put it in simple words, if one is happy with his current CRT placement, Plasma would not be a bad deal for him. And this should be applicable for the LCDs that has a glossy finish.

Matte finished LCDs are immune to reflection and some PDPs with filter should also improve the situation.
 
If I am not wrong, this should be same as in case of the CRTs.

Well, not same but proportionate to screen size.
It could be ok with your CRT but, given the size, plasma could be annoying if there is uncovered doors/windows in the opposite.

Same is true for "glossy" LCDs like samsung 6 series.
 
Your use of term 'dark room condition' is a bit misleading.
Plasmas show excellent picture in a normal apartment hall with a tube light.
Ornamented point source light(s) made up ceiling will cause trouble.
An uncurtained light source like door/window opposite to the TV kills the picture.
If you have an apartment room with tube light and curtained window/door, that should fit the dark room you are mentioning.
This Iam saying from experience. Other plasma TV owners can post your experience.
Well the placement of tubelight matters,if its behind the screen it wont be a issue.But if its in from of the tv it matters.The windows if its towards the left or right of the viewer or in front of the tv ,the contrast will take a hit and yes the amount of light coming through the windows matter.

What do you mean by softer plasma? A 1080p plasma is shart enough..
In a way LCDs are artificially sharp? That too with endge enhancement algorithms (samsung in particular) the picture is razor sharp. (which is not necessarily a good thing).
Well plasma image are softer,due to dithering,sure that noticeable only at close distances.
As far artifically sharp it can be good thing,you can always tone down the settings.
tell me whick looks good in these images
dscf1541.jpg

dscf1570.jpg

dscf1571e.jpg
 
If I am not wrong, this should be same as in case of the CRTs.

So to put it in simple words, if one is happy with his current CRT placement, Plasma would not be a bad deal for him. And this should be applicable for the LCDs that has a glossy finish.

Matte finished LCDs are immune to reflection and some PDPs with filter should also improve the situation.

Well, not same but proportionate to screen size.
It could be ok with your CRT but, given the size, plasma could be annoying if there is uncovered doors/windows in the opposite.

Same is true for "glossy" LCDs like samsung 6 series.
CRTs is are just as bad if not worst then plasmas,i couldn't bare the reflections even in a HI-BLACK trinitron picture tube equipped sony crt.

While glossy lcd do reflect more then a matte screen lcd,they still are quite a lot less then a plasma,secondly the lcds makes up with added brightness to compensate the glare .in the below image the glossy samsung lcd vs the panasonic plasma,notice which set can show good blacks.
dscf1555e.jpg
 
Since this is turning into a fun thread let me add to the chaos. :)

I was looking at some TV reviews and found this piece of info -

120Hz full HD LCD/LEDs have moving picture resolution of 600 lines max.

Even 240Hz/200Hz LCD/LEDs have moving picture resolution of 900-1000 lines. And for the top-of-the-line LG LH90 LED, moving picture resolution is just 300 lines when blur reduction is turned off.

For plasmas, the moving picture resolution is 900 lines for cheaper full HDs like Pana S1 and 1080 lines for more expensive ones like Pana G1.

I never knew this stuff before and I don't know how it affects the picture quality. Anyone who has researched more about moving resolution would be in a better position to explain whether it degrades picture quality.
 
in the below image the glossy samsung lcd vs the panasonic plasma,notice which set can show good blacks.

"pic with pana plasma and some lCD comparison"

If this how people compare black levels of plasma and lcd then all i can do is:lol:

About refection, in a bright light room plasma's intend to reflect since they are glass based and so does LCD unless if its some matt finished monitor. In the pic it seems like the LCD has some black image background or it is in full off back light but still it reflects a lot. When turned full of an LCD screen looks black while plasma does not but that does not relate to good blacks on LCD.

Black is not blank screen it is black video material, if one needs a black tube or glass to display blacks then all theaters will have black screen or have the wall painted black but they don't that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwRa0LA7BBQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5jzd438P8Y&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9srWo1Ikd0&feature=related

Plasma in a ambient light environment displaying blacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68Any0ASyjc&feature=related

blacks in dark room:
panasonic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_Hom9m2NDM&feature=related

pioneer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y1uy6xccF4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o04YXec7Z1g&feature=related


.
As far artifically sharp it can be good thing,you can always tone down the settings.
tell me whick looks good in these images


"pic with toy story movie playin"


Between these pics, the first one looks soft but every damn thing looks like it is part of the picture, but second one does not look like one single image, rather it looks like different sticker puzzle stuck together specially the two animated characters look like a sticker stuck on top of the background image. The second image also looks pixelated even in this low quality screen shot so i wonder how it will look in real time.

Sharpness in ambient light:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=objT5GQjc_A&feature=related


plasma sharpness in a dark room:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrsCu9XfLMs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igmKhR--_zY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbhCPm1TGqw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=684Rt4QkVeU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5uQKRjYFFY&feature=related

Gaming in plasma:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpD_A8q5niY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLL1RsUteCw&feature=related
 
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If this how people compare black levels of plasma and lcd then all i can do is:lol:

I will post some comparison screen shots in this space later.
Well remember those images are to show how plasmas handle light vs a glossy lcd.the perceived black levels.

Between these pics, the first one looks soft but every damn thing looks like it is part of the picture, but second one does not look like one single image, rather it looks like different sticker puzzle stuck together specially the two animated characters look like a sticker stuck on top of the background image. The second image also looks pixelated even in this low quality screen shot so i wonder how it will look in real time.
well thats your opinion.I for one like the second shot.
 
@Adder.

1) I have a samsung plasma and it is looks more like the samsung LCD in your picture. It is not grey but black. Could be due to the filterbright or whatever film.

2) I recommend you demo Samsung B550/C550 plasmas. The image of panasonic you posted show blunt image and the second shows sharper image I agree but I assume it is due to Samsung image processing.

In my plasma, If I switch on edge enhancing, It produces images similar to the second (Not quite from closeby, a little soft which I assume is due to 720p). I agree, it is great with animations because it has smooth curves and straight lines and has lesser colour gradations for the most part (Infact I switch on edge enhancement when viewing animation), But cannot say the same thing for non animation stuff. I prefer switching it off for normal content.

And yes I too prefer the second the picture. Just telling that the same is archievable in a C550 plasma with better colours. IMO, It has to do with samsung algorithms for the most part.
 
@Adder.

1) I have a samsung plasma and it is looks more like the samsung LCD in your picture. It is not grey but black. Could be due to the filterbright or whatever film.

2) I recommend you demo Samsung B550/C550 plasmas. The image of panasonic you posted show blunt image and the second shows sharper image I agree but I assume it is due to Samsung image processing.
Agree the samsung plasma panels are better then the panasonic atleast compared to 09 models,(no idea whether panasonic have improved for 2010).
but it still doesn't match the lcd ,in perceived black levels due to glare.
in the below image kuro on the top ,samsung 8 series plasma bottom left,samsung series 8 lcd on the bottom right,
4468731721_2f30fea48b_b.jpg
 
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