Let's discuss some speaker tweaks to achieve "that" sound

[captrajesh]

Hi Square_wave,

Firstly I thank you very much for your concern. Now, let me discuss your post point by point.

Can I humbly state that there is absolutely no problem with those speakers.

You may have heard some other MS 101 speakers but would not have heard this particular pair. So I can't figure out how you can make this statement. Just by coincidence I guess, even Shiva (Who made these speakers) said exactly the same.

OK I have no problem in accepting that I am a noob and I don't know what is good sound.

If you have read my earlier post and some other posts in other threads, I've stated that Sashi Kumar, Rajiv and Buswal have also heard my speakers and have noted the same inadequacies. Are you suggesting that they are noobs as well.:indifferent14: Have a heart buddy, they come across to me as very knowledgeable people with very good ears.

That 101s are real gems.The drivers, cabinet and crossover are top class.

Absolutely, except for the crossover part. I've already stated that.

Do not change anything. You will just screw it up ! I feel you are approaching the problem from the wrong direction

I'd be glad to hear from you as to how to address the issue. BTW, I think you are based in Bangalore. I wish you were in chennai and we could have had a joint listening session.

Feed em a mid-level CA, Nad, Marantz or Arcam amp. It will sing just fine

Are you suggesting to me that the problem is with amp? I had paired the speakers with some good and powerful amps from the stable of Rotel, Nakamichi, Torvin and Denon apart from my amp from Class D Audio and the speaker characteristics sounded the same.

I can't fantom how a good speaker can sound good bad and vice versa to that extent perceived.

If you want great bang for the buck (much better quality than the mentioned amps above), Please import an appropriate kit from this guy here. I am talking hi-end sound here. The N AKZA 70 or the 100Watt will bring a smile to your face. Guaranteed.

Yes, I heard about them and even had a brief listen at George's place. thank you for the link.

Looking forward for your replies.

Rgds


Rajesh

 

[keith_correa]

Cap'n - how is the internal bracing of the cabinets? Is there any?

 

[linuxguru]

If you want great bang for the buck (much better quality than the mentioned amps above), Please import an appropriate kit from this guy here. I am talking hi-end sound here. The N AKZA 70 or the 100Watt will bring a smile to your face. Guaranteed.
::: Aspen Amplifiers :::

The Aspen AKSA series amps are indeed sonically superb. However, it seems that Hugh has discontinued the AKSA 55W kits, which were the best value for money, and now offers only completely-built modules of 70W and above with optional Nirvana and Nirvana+ upgrades. YMMV, but none of these is inexpensive.

 

[square_wave]

Hi Square_wave,

Firstly I thank you very much for your concern. Now, let me discuss your post point by point.

You may have heard some other MS 101 speakers but would not have heard this particular pair. So I can't figure out how you can make this statement. Just by coincidence I guess, even Shiva (Who made these speakers) said exactly the same.

OK I have no problem in accepting that I am a noob and I don't know what is good sound.

If you have read my earlier post and some other posts in other threads, I've stated that Sashi Kumar, Rajiv and Buswal have also heard my speakers and have noted the same inadequacies. Are you suggesting that they are noobs as well.:indifferent14: Have a heart buddy, they come across to me as very knowledgeable people with very good ears.

Absolutely, except for the crossover part. I've already stated that.

I'd be glad to hear from you as to how to address the issue. BTW, I think you are based in Bangalore. I wish you were in chennai and we could have had a joint listening session.

Are you suggesting to me that the problem is with amp? I had paired the speakers with some good and powerful amps from the stable of Rotel, Nakamichi, Torvin and Denon apart from my amp from Class D Audio and the speaker characteristics sounded the same.

I can't fantom how a good speaker can sound good bad and vice versa to that extent perceived.

Yes, I heard about them and even had a brief listen at George's place. thank you for the link.

Looking forward for your replies.

Rgds


Rajesh

I agree that I cannot say for certain if I have heard the same speakers you have currently with you. Siva had a pair for sale two months back and we had done a comparison of the same against a a pair of 3000$ speakers in Bangalore purely for research purpose and the speakers performed almost 80 percent against the above said speakers. In some areas, it outperformed the $3000 speaker while in some areas the other speaker won.The amps were a pair of odyssey khartago extreme monoblocks. Overall a great performer, especially for the money it used to sell for. I have heard these a few times earlier in different systems and my opinion remains the same. I am as perplexed as you are Rajesh.

Did you not hear the speakers sounding good before you picked them up ?

 

[captrajesh]

Cap'n - how is the internal bracing of the cabinets? Is there any?

Hi Keith

Rock solid construction with 19mm MDF and with internal bracing. For a 9"wide 10.5" deep and 18.5" high speaker, the bracing provided is great.

 

[square_wave]

Your experience is generally in line with many others who find that it's often optimal to drive the woofer as a full-range (especially if it is 8" or smaller).

You may also find that a simple capacitive 1st-order (6 dB per octave) crossover for the tweeter gives the most natural sound, with no jumping or phase-coherence issues. I have used this arrangement for all my 2-way setups with no problems so far.

I agree but this works only if the natural mechanical roll off of the mid -woofer is optimal for such an application. There are very few such woofers out there.

The vifa in question is far from such a candidate.

The Ref 3A has been making speakers like this for a long time now. The woofer is hand built to work this way. The amp is directly connected to the woofer.
http://www.reference3a.com/veena.htm

Another manufacturer which use 1st order crossover very successfully is the green mountain audio. Very specific woofers and design parameters are used to make a speaker work this way effectively.

 

[prasen_b]

I agree but this works only if the natural mechanical roll off of the mid -woofer is optimal for such an application. There are very few such woofers out there.

The vifa in question is far from such a candidate.

The Ref 3A has been making speakers like this for a long time now. The woofer is hand built to work this way. The amp is directly connected to the woofer.
Reference 3A Loudspeakers

Another manufacturer which use 1st order crossover very successfully is the green mountain audio. Very specific woofers and design parameters are used to make a speaker work this way effectively.

I agree. I believe EPOS M12.2 is one such commercially available speaker where the mid-bass doesn't use a electrical crossover. The cross over is a very important part of the speaker and it takes a lot of fine-tuning and experience to get it right. There was this guy from Mumbai (I believe he is a member of this forum too) who made floorstanders with only drivers available in India. You can go through his nicely written dairy here The Asawari | dhandanought.org/tcpip.

Just a thought have you checked if both speakers are connected properly in phase. When I first bought my speakers I ran them in opposite phase for almost a month and kept wondering why it didn't sound good. Especially with this arrangement the mid bass appears thin and the sound lacks focus.

 

[captrajesh]

we had done a comparison of the same against a a pair of 3000$ speakers in Bangalore purely for research purpose and the speakers performed almost 80 percent against the above said speakers. In some areas, it outperformed the $3000 speaker while in some areas the other speaker won.

I guess you are talking about a comparison with Proacs that Mr. Shiva claims to have made. I've not heard Proacs so no comments on that.

Overall a great performer, especially for the money it used to sell for.

Absolutely, good value for money considering the quality and components. I'm not saying the speaker sounds bad. NO. If you read my post I just said that the mids are not as lush as my other Tower speakers that I hoped to replace.

I am as perplexed as you are Rajesh.

I do not think you know enough of me and we are familiar enough for you to make this statement but I'm not taking offense of it though it sounded so.

Did you not hear the speakers sounding good before you picked them up ?

Again coincidentally I guess, Mr. Shiva said exactly the same. Initially didn't think so though apparent but now that your post says so; Just being curious, what is your level of association with Mr. Shiva?

Yes I did hear the speaker with my own source, my own Amp and my own speaker cable but did not have my towers for side-by-side comparison.

Do not change anything. You will just screw it up ! I feel you are approaching the problem from the wrong direction.

I'd be glad to hear from you as to how to address the issue.

I'm awaiting your valuable advice.

 

[captrajesh]

I had landed in Bangalore to buy speakers but couldn't really go to Sridhar or Prithvi to check their wares though I made appointments due to very tight schedule that I was having.

I bought them on impulse as I was taken in by the build quality. Having said that, I have no regrets of buying them and they are sounding very nice after the mods. They need to be fine tuned.

Incidentally, one of the forum members, a DIY speaker maker did sound me about the lean mids and advised me against purchase but having orally committed to the deal, I went ahead and bought them.

 

[square_wave]

I guess you are talking about a comparison with Proacs that Mr. Shiva claims to have made. I've not heard Proacs so no comments on that.


Absolutely, good value for money considering the quality and components. I'm not saying the speaker sounds bad. NO. If you read my post I just said that the mids are not as lush as my other Tower speakers that I hoped to replace.


I do not think you know enough of me and we are familiar enough for you to make this statement but I'm not taking offense of it though it sounded so.


Again coincidentally I guess, Mr. Shiva said exactly the same. Initially didn't think so though apparent but now that your post says so; Just being curious, what is your level of association with Mr. Shiva?

Yes I did hear the speaker with my own source, my own Amp and my own speaker cable but did not have my towers for side-by-side comparison.


I'm awaiting your valuable advice.

No. It is exactly this same piece which is with you. The MS 101s. I had a chat about the same yesterday with Siva.

My association is as an audiophile and a friend. One of the first customers. There are a lot of such folks in bangalore. Unfortunately almost none are members on this forum.

I cannot help you with the specifics on the design. You will have to talk to Siva. He is the designer of the speaker. He may be able to help you in attaining a specific kind of sound.

I am only trying to help you. From your tone, I do not think this discussion is going anywhere. Sorry if I wasted any of your time.

 

[captrajesh]

I am only trying to help you. From your tone, I do not think this discussion is going anywhere. Sorry if I wasted any of your time.

Hi Square_wave,

There appears to be some misunderstanding from both sides. I'm sorry if I've hurt you but I perceived your posts as if showing me in poor light. From your reply it appears my perception is wrong. I'm really sorry about that.

No. It is exactly this same piece which is with you. The MS 101s. I had a chat about the same yesterday with Siva.

I was talking about the reported comparison with $3000 speakers that you have been witness to. Shiva, during my discussion with him had mentioned that they have been compared with very expensive Proac speakers. I was inquiring if you are talking of the same comparison.

Thank you very much for your concern.

Rgds


Rajesh

 

[captrajesh]

I cannot help you with the specifics on the design. You will have to talk to Siva. He is the designer of the speaker. He may be able to help you in attaining a specific kind of sound.

He seems to have got upset when I reported about the shortcomings when I tried discussing the issue. Also, he was not forthcoming with any details pertaining to crossovers stating

The xover are propertiarty and hence it is not a policy to disclose the details.

I can share the email exchanges if you are interested. I heard only good words about Shiva but my experience has been different. My bad luck.

 

[square_wave]

He seems to have got upset when I reported about the shortcomings when I tried discussing the issue. Also, he was not forthcoming with any details pertaining to crossovers stating

I can share the email exchanges if you are interested. I heard only good words about Shiva but my experience has been different. My bad luck.

Not a problem.
My comparison was with the Green mountain audio EOS.It is the same speaker which you own. I confirmed with Siva.
There is a friend of Siva who owns the MS 101s along with a Proac response 1SE. He listens to either of them depending on his mood. I guess Siva was referring to that guy.
I am sure there will be IP related issues with sharing design details about the crossover and design. He is a manufacturer.
I will send you a PM.

 

[keith_correa]

How about a tweak to prevent tweeter diffraction?

See commercial implementation here. Uses neoprene. Isn't neoprene the stuff used under most mouse pads? If it is, can DIY, no?

It seems wool felt is better for achieving this. Anyone know where a wool felt sheet would be available?

Now, what "desi" material can we use instead of wool felt. Ideas?

 

[keith_correa]

Nice article about diffraction.

Tweeter diffraction

 

[Hari Iyer]

Your experience is generally in line with many others who find that it's often optimal to drive the woofer as a full-range (especially if it is 8" or smaller).

You may also find that a simple capacitive 1st-order (6 dB per octave) crossover for the tweeter gives the most natural sound, with no jumping or phase-coherence issues. I have used this arrangement for all my 2-way setups with no problems so far.

For using a 1st order filter the driver needs to be wide-band and the cross-over frequency should be 3 octaves away from the resonating frequency of the woofer/tweeter. For a 2 way design the woofer should not be a problem but the tweeter can create problem unless its a low Fs type. Hence the quality of the drivers is very important for a 1st order design. Adding a baffle-step will open up the mid-bass of the woofer and will allow a balanced sound in the mid-range. Also the high frequency contours are well managed with the baffle-step given an overall open sound stage which is less fatigue and bright.
Hari.

 

[linuxguru]

... the tweeter can create problem unless its a low Fs type. Hence the quality of the drivers is very important for a 1st order design. Adding a baffle-step will open up the mid-bass of the woofer and will allow a balanced sound in the mid-range. Also the high frequency contours are well managed with the baffle-step given an overall open sound stage which is less fatigue and bright.

Thanks - can you elaborate on the baffle-step concept? I'm not familiar with most aspects of cabinet/enclosure design.

I agree that the tweeter parameters can be an issue with 1st-order crossovers.

 

[captrajesh]

Hi

I had pulled out the LF Driver's cross over yesterday and soldered the wire connecting the speaker directly to the speaker's binding post. (Earlier, we had disconnected the crossover and used a cable with crocodile clips and connected the cable to the amp directly)

The speaker sounds special to me now.:yahoo:

 

[vivek.saikia]

Hi

I had pulled out the LF Driver's cross over yesterday and soldered the wire connecting the speaker directly to the speaker's binding post. (Earlier, we had disconnected the crossover and used a cable with crocodile clips and connected the cable to the amp directly)

The speaker sounds special to me now.:yahoo:

Cap'n, I am so tempted to try this one. But may be I will give my speakers some more time to prove themselves hyeah:

 

[captrajesh]

Cap'n, I am so tempted to try this one. But may be I will give my speakers some more time to prove themselves hyeah:

Which speakers are yours? Accoustic Potrait?

You can initially try disconnecting the crossover and connect the driver directly to the amp. This is what I did. Later when if you find improvement, you can make a permanent connection whereby sound would further improve (due to better contact)