Low bass in music - Sub or no Sub ?

[haisaikat]

INR 50K max.
Any suggestions ?

Experience is limited on movie subs only, apologies. But I do love my polk dsw pro 660 even for music (although many differ , probably it may be my bias) and have also liked another colleague's KEF KUBE 2 in sub 40K range, both sold by profx. Please audition them once if you like.

 

[Shivam]

Another query -

As far as I understand REL subs don't interfere with the main speakers and let them play as before. I have seen almost all the other subs (various other companies) also having speaker level inputs. How then are REL different in this aspect from other subs ?

 

[Nikhil]

Shivam,

What speaker cables are you using? I have found that sometimes cables can choke the sound especially in the LF as you are describing. Of course this is no replacement for a sub but worth a shot. I doubt that the amps don't have the power to give you enough bass.

Also actives are very correct in terms of what is coming from your source. You will not get the mid/bass bloom that you get from passive setups.

Best Regards.

 

[Shivam]

Shivam,

What speaker cables are you using? I have found that sometimes cables can choke the sound especially in the LF as you are describing. Of course this is no replacement for a sub but worth a shot. I doubt that the amps don't have the power to give you enough bass.

Also actives are very correct in terms of what is coming from your source. You will not get the mid/bass bloom that you get from passive setups.

Best Regards.

Cables are also from AP. I think they are called Thallam.
The sound is very nice and balanced. The vocals are extremely good. It is the very low frequencies which I miss. I also don't like the excessive mid-bass bloom.
I think I will try some different cables too but my gut feeling is that these cables are well suited to my system and a sub is what is actually required.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Going back to first post... when you say only down to 60Hz, is this based on the specifications for the speakers, on listening tests to music, or listening tests to test tones?

If the speakers just don't go that low, then that is a fact that has to be lived with and tweaks are a waste of time and money when you could be spending on setting up your sub.

On the other hand, if there is more bass there, but you are just not getting it, then some room treatment might help. I'd love to have a room I could treat, I'm sure it is a fascinating project and could be more rewarding than audio hardware upgrades, but, for now, I can only read about it!

One thing I learnt only recently, is that bass traps, despite the name, do not reduce bass, they increase it! Interesting stuff!

Apart from that, I suspect that you are quite right in your need for the sub. And, for real music, I guess it has to be a good one.

I guess there is a difference between boom-boom that is good enough for HT, and bass that is good for hifi music. I thought I'd follow this thread to learn more about subwoofers in the hifi context

 

[Santy]

One thing I learnt only recently, is that bass traps, despite the name, do not reduce bass, they increase it! Interesting stuff!

Indeed it is interesting!

I guess there is a difference between boom-boom that is good enough for HT, and bass that is good for hifi music.

Sorry I beg to disagree. It probably says you have no genuine interest or experience in HT. Why do you think boom boom bass is acceptable for HT ? It is a great misconception that HT enthusiasts live with any kind of bass as long as there's lots of them. . I keep my sub at 25% of max volume with tonnes of headroom which I do not mind remaining unused.


@Shivam

You could also look at SVS sealed subs which are locally available I believe. SB1000 comes roughly within your budget though you are better off with the latest SB2000 (if you are little flexible on the budget) that is supposed to be better than even SB12 NSD. You could also consider Genelec 5040b which comes in your budget, doesn't go deep but fills the gap that you are primarily missing with great authority [ do not underestimate it by looking at its size!]. Also you could scout for some used Sunfire subs...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Errr... I'll be back in a week. Better make that two.

Maybe HT people have long memories. I'll make myself scarce for a year.

OK, so I really put my foot in it there and now all the HT people want to kill me.

I can only say sorry, and that you are right about my HT experience: I don't even watch TV.

 

[Santy]

Lol Thad.... I know you are not into HT that's why I took the liberty.
What indeed is scarce (based on the scarcity of discussions on it) are HT guys who understand the problems of bass and ever more scarce are those who fight to tame it! So your point is valid to a great extent.

 

[Shivam]

Going back to first post... when you say only down to 60Hz, is this based on the specifications for the speakers, on listening tests to music, or listening tests to test tones?

I used a Denon test tones CD. I could hear the 60Hz tone at normal listening volumes from my sitting place but not the 50Hz. (I have normal hearing.)

@Shivam

You could also look at SVS sealed subs which are locally available I believe. SB1000 comes roughly within your budget though you are better off with the latest SB2000 (if you are little flexible on the budget) that is supposed to be better than even SB12 NSD. You could also consider Genelec 5040b which comes in your budget, doesn't go deep but fills the gap that you are primarily missing with great authority [ do not underestimate it by looking at its size!]. Also you could scout for some used Sunfire subs...

I'll surely check out these models too. I was planning to finalize a REL sub but I'll look at these too. Unfortunately I am unable to audition any so it'll have to be a blind buy.

 

[mpw]

are your speakers sealed or ported ?

sorry.. there is very little information available on them.

whats the speaker enclosure dimension and the driver sizing ?

which drivers are these ?

whats the room size like ?

if its a ported speaker.. you should be getting much more lower notes assuming a 6.5 inch driver size of the mid bass.

typically.. as you get towards 20 Hz.. the driver size must increase...or you have multitudes of smaller drivers moving that much air.

mpw

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Lol Thad.... I know you are not into HT that's why I took the liberty.
What indeed is scarce (based on the scarcity of discussions on it) are HT guys who understand the problems of bass and ever more scarce are those who fight to tame it! So your point is valid to a great extent.

:lol:

(Sorry, Shivam, but not entirely off-topic...)

Well, Santy, there is a difference between fidelity to the cinema experience, and fidelity to the instrumental musical experience, right? I put my foot in it, but that is what I had in mind.

I used a Denon test tones CD. I could hear the 60Hz tone at normal listening volumes from my sitting place but not the 50Hz. (I have normal hearing.)

Do you have specifications for the frequency range of the speakers? I have to admit that such specs can be taken with a pinch of salt for commercial models, especially when there is not +/-dB qualifier, but it should mean something for monitors, etc.

I'm just thinking that, if the speakers are supposed to go lower, then acoustic treatment of the room would be the thing.

 

[Santy]

Well, Santy, there is a difference between fidelity to the cinema experience, and fidelity to the instrumental musical experience, right? I put my foot in it, but that is what I had in mind.

Yes there is a difference. But then, for people like me, it is equally annoying to hear what is not there in the content, be it movies or music. Agreed that movies add extra dosages of bass that is not natural but we can clearly make out the unwanted reinforcement of some bass frequencies due to room interactions or limitations of the sub and that does spoil the experience. We do not really know how an explosion feels like but we do know the boom bass was not recorded or intended. A clean, tight and textured bass is desirable for both movies and music and only difference is that movies need them to be louder and deeper. Why do people generally go for ported subs for HT? Not because they are OK with a little loose bass but a tight and musical bass that goes that low and deep are prohibitively expensive. BTW, do not forget music videos.

 

[gobble]

I have had great challenge in integrating a sub with frequencies above 40hz. If I could go back in time I would buy a sub with a driver that uses the same material for its driver as the main speaker. I.e metal for metal, paper for paper, kevlar sub for kevlar speakers etc.

@60-70hz you are going to hear a difference in tonality and timbre when the sub is switched on or off. At least I do.

G0bble

 

[Shivam]

I have had great challenge in integrating a sub with frequencies above 40hz. If I could go back in time I would buy a sub with a driver that uses the same material for its driver as the main speaker. I.e metal for metal, paper for paper, kevlar sub for kevlar speakers etc.

@60-70hz you are going to hear a difference in tonality and timbre when the sub is switched on or off. At least I do.

G0bble

I am planning to set the cross-over at about 40-50 Hz so that the roll off from the sub and the speakers complement each other and have a flat response when working together.

 

[gobble]

I am planning to set the cross-over at about 40-50 Hz so that the roll off from the sub and the speakers complement each other and have a flat response when working together.

Also I must mention, I got the sub integration optimal only after I got the speaker placement right according to the principles discussed on various audio forums. Without that every attempt at sub integration was a subtle failure only discovered after days and weeks of listening. I followed the cardas guide as a starting point. So do review your speaker placement without a sub before you attempt adding a sub.

G0bble

 

[Shivam]

I have finalized REL T7. I'll post a review once I get it.

 

[captrajesh]

It has been a few months since I heard a couple of Bach's organ works and felt something missing in my system. It seems that my system (AP active with bookshelves) plays sounds upto 60 Hz fairly well but almost nothing below it.

I tested the system using a Denon test tones CD and the test tones below 60 Hz are very faintly audible upto about 50 Hz and below that they are not audible without changing the gain.

Old Vifa drivers (used to be scanspeak then) !

I'm surprised by your experience! These are the very same speakers (MS101) that I too had and they use 6.25" PP cone Vifa drivers as mid bass units. As per the specs they go down to 45 Hz and I'm thoroughly convinced that they do. I remember playing LF demo tracks that GeorgeO shared with me. I was amazed at how the LF was played by the puny looking drivers! The cone excursion was abnormal but the LFE was mind boggling.

There must be something wrong somewhere. Could it be the Xover? Don't know.

I hope you played around with speaker placement like pushing the speakers closer to the corners and failed to elicit desired response.

If your main speakers are ducted , you could seal the duct giving you a second order response ( and rolling off earlier , like maybe 90 Hz ). This makes it very easy to design a matched electronic crossover to give you an accurate Linkwitz Riley response.

Pardon my ignorance; Are you referring to ported design? IMHO, even TLs and folded horn designs could also be broadly classified as ducted speakers and hence confused.

If ported is what you've meant, as per my personal experience, sealing the port by stuffing a rolled on sock would significantly reduce the bass response. I'm not sure if by sealing the box and modifying the crossover would result in better bass response.

One thing I learnt only recently, is that bass traps, despite the name, do not reduce bass, they increase it! Interesting stuff!

Really How?

I guess there is a difference between boom-boom that is good enough for HT, and bass that is good for hifi music.

In view of the objections raised, let me rephrase the quoted sentence.

HT setup (for viewing movies) is more forgiving in accommodating a subwoofer in the mix,

 

[Shivam]

I'm surprised by your experience! These are the very same speakers (MS101) that I too had and they use 6.25" PP cone Vifa drivers as mid bass units. As per the specs they go down to 45 Hz and I'm thoroughly convinced that they do. I remember playing LF demo tracks that GeorgeO shared with me. I was amazed at how the LF was played by the puny looking drivers! The cone excursion was abnormal but the LFE was mind boggling.

There must be something wrong somewhere. Could it be the Xover? Don't know.

I hope you played around with speaker placement like pushing the speakers closer to the corners and failed to elicit desired response.

I am happy with the low frequency response in most of the music that I listen too. It is just a couple of albums where I find it missing. The frequencies in an organ go really low and so these can't produce it.

They might be going down to 45Hz as per specs but I am talking of my real listening experience with a Denon test CD at normal gain (which I use for listening to music) and from the position where I sit while enjoying the music. In such a case, there is hardly any information below 60Hz and so I feel there is need to make the response flat upto as low as I can. Subwoofer is the only answer to this. From REL claims, most of the floor-standers also don't go to the required low.

I did try changing the location of the speakers but all the new positions resulted in fall in performance. Pushing them slightly closer to wall did give better bass response but with excess of standing waves in the upper-bass region which was unbearable to my ears.

Like I said that the bass response in good in these speakers but still I miss something in some of the albums and so I am planning to opt for sub.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Really How [do bass traps not reduce bass, they increase it!]?

Because the bass frequencies are lost when reflections cancel out the direct sound. You are more of a scientist than I am, but I remember the thing in physics at school where we can see that two waves meeting either combine as one bigger wave or else cancel to nothing.

My reading suggests that this cancelling to nothing can be a big problem in getting the full sound spectrum to our ears without holes in it.

The italics is because I am going on theory and second-hand reports. No chance yet to have tries out in practice. But it is interesting stuff.

If only there were special glasses that made it possible to see sound waves! hyeah:

 

[captrajesh]

I remember the thing in physics at school where we can see that two waves meeting either combine as one bigger wave or else cancel to nothing.

I'm no scientist but speaking from theory learnt at High School and of course the net. As per my understanding,

1. Sound waves (energy) that are in phase meeting at the room corners and reinforce those emanating from driver. They move to and fro progressively weakening as they propagate.

2. The lower the frequency, the longer is the wave length and the higher would be the energy at a given amplitude.

3. Some waves whose frequencies correspond to room modes resonate. (see picture below)

Source: Standing waves acoustic resonance and vibrations on ideal strings - Standing waves are stationary waves room modes sound pressure level between hard parallel walls node antinode stationary room acoustic frequency - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

4. The bass traps are designed to minimise the reinforcements and resonances so that the listener would only hear the actual sound produced by the bass driver and not those reflected / reinforced / resonated by the room.

Hence I'm confused as to how the bass traps would increase the bass and not decrease it.

I am going on theory and second-hand reports. No chance yet to have tries out in practice. But it is interesting stuff.

Would love to read up and expand my horizons.