Marantz CD6002+NAD c325BEE+WharfeDale 9.2 Review

[marsilians]

Dinyaar. I agree with you completely on the perception re: silver. Most times, I observe people call it "tinny" because they have just shifted from hearing a very laid back signature and suddenly feel the dynamics due to silver. I am not proposing one over other but my observations as people swtich from one to other. I always tell them to give it some time and listen over and over a few times. Then they start to notice the dynamics and are a bit more accepting.

Same logic for the so called "bright" speakers as many other would term it "dynamic" - its really a state of mind at the end like many things.


Re; the Yacco, its a true Litz braid and I did pay much attention when I first saw it at my buddy's couple years ago. His was a McIntosh setup paired with B&W Nautilus and the dynamics was just superb with vocals and instrumentals. I remember he played Etta James (The Best of) and it was such a beautiful reproduction thats when I got to see his whole setup and noticed the silvers and got interested in its properties in a setup after being introduced to the Yaccos.

After this, I started to search for more of such systems and came upon a setup that was using Totem Sinew silver ICs in a setup that had a Rega Mira driving a pair of Quad ESLs and the dynamics were fantastic for vocals and instrumentals including western classical & Jazz (Hubert, Tchaikovsky, Bela Fleck, Bill Evans Trio, Stan Getz, and others)

This buddy was gracious enough to try out the Yacco's and was surprised at how well it sounded even though it was about 20% the cost of the Sinews.

This is when I realized that silver ICs do make a difference in a bit of a laid back system and hence the suggestion in the first place....


BTW, the silvers did not work out for me and I am just happy with copper at this point. I don't have a cable infatuation based on properties (molecular structure a some refer to it) or the pricing. Good quality at reasonable prices.

Thanks Marsilians. If it works for u thats it and that s all that matters.

Most guys will claim that silver has a sparkle but i have heard silver cables( audio note silvers that cost the earth) sound smoother than anthing. No sheen, glare or anthing that most silver are claimed to exhibit. Most VDH cables are coated in silver (check out the quality and the degree of coating, its superb) and yet they can sound dull. Some even refer to the Co as van den DULL.
I saw the link. They are trying (not entirely though) to emulate a Kimber RCA. They claim that 28 ft of pure silver wire goes into an inter connect that they retail for 90USD. Keeping current cost of silver i am a bit perplexed. Its basically a litz braid of 7 pure, solid core silver. Have never heard the cable so cant comment on the sonics.
RGDS

 

[moserw]

I remember he played Etta James (The Best of) and it was such a beautiful reproduction

Hi Marsilians,

Most of what you say goes over my head, but this is a great album. The lady sure can sing...

 

[marsilians]

Hi Marsilians,

Most of what you say goes over my head, but this is a great album. The lady sure can sing...

I didn't realise that you were that short moserw - kidding as usual Yes, its a beautiful album. I own the CD and is definitely one that gets lots of airtime along with some other gems.

 

[gobble]

Marsilians

I don't get it. You sing the virtues of silver for the major part of a post then close it saying it didn't work out for you. Frankly I'm a bit perplexed. Can you elaborate?

Cheers

 

[gobble]

Thanks to all for chiming in with suggestions and compliments for writing the review.

Per the suggestion of Asit I tried replacing the Pre-out Main-in factory steel plugs with a cable. The only cable (reasonably priced) I could lay my hands on was another ProfiGold pga-4201 (INR 999/- couldn't find an alternative below 3K for experimentation). I am happy to say the improvement was very significant !! The low end dynamics and extension improved really well, so did the highs sound smoother. To all this is added just a touch of depth.

However with all these improvements I lost one important quality that I immediately loved from the day I switched on my setup.

As I mentioned in my review the setup provides a very tactile feel and sensation of "hands on goat skin leather" and the sensation of "displacement of air" as the hand closes in to slap the leather on percussive instruments. The experience is not felt of course in each and every beat of the instruments or on every track ( on a well recorded track I can feel it consistently even in the next room) but when it appears - it is magical. Similarly the chimes of temple bells feel so real that many times I blink my eyes and look for the temple ( no kidding here ). You can test and compare with your own setup with tracks 2 & 3 of album SUM - Cultures of Rhythm by Taufic Qureshi, Shridhar Parthasarthy and others, label: Virgin.

Well this is gone to a slight degree with the cable swap!!

Another example is in an afro-blues track that plays a sliding metallic rhythm in the background, what I suspect is nothing more than the individual legs of a scissors rubbed together rhythmically (Album Kulanjan - Taj Mahal and Toumani Diabate). This sound has that presence with the metal plugs on, like someone outside your window ( the wandering knife sharperner) would sound - but this is again lost with the cable compared to the metal plug. [PS: Asit-ji - The finest album I've ever heard - beats Ali Farka Toure's award winning Savanne and others in its category - to me atleast !! :licklips:]

I suspect that introducing the cable between pre-out and main in is messing with the phase coherence. To be sure it wasn't due to a cable that wasn't broken in I exchanged the older profigold CDP<>AMP interconnect with the new one I got for Pre-out<>Main-in but no luck.

Luckily for me ( I wasn't even searching for it or aware of such a thing then) Wharfedale explicitly boasts about the simple crossover they implemented and resulting phase coherence (in the product promos) and its there to hear in their speakers! I would never have known what I was missing if I had purchased any other budget speaker. ( The known perceptible weakness of the Wharfedale - coloration due to cabinet resonance actually complements with phase coherence, instruments like the Pakhawaj and Dholak very brilliantly, to give a live in-the-room feel with the reverbs!!). Mind you the immediacy and presence is not as good as Vinyl but still I am slightly overjoyed that I can experience at least some of it with a digital system and feel it to be an important redeeming factor of my budget mid-fi setup.

Now suddenly I am cautious and I dont want to spend to spend 2.8K or 6K on an interconnect that will add the dynamics and frequency extensions but rob my system of its one most important quality. In fact I value the original quality so much that I swap the cable and use the plug with small band acoustic albums then swap back when I listen to western classical for the dynamics depth and clarity !!

I am now looking for a tried and tested interconnect that I know will retain phase coherence and need your advice on which one to get. It will be great if someone can affirm that "presence and immediacy" exists in his setup with X, Y or Z interconnect between pre-amp to power-amp. hyeah: Also keeping in mind the other weakness of my system - lack of depth and space, I feel extraa $$ is only worth it if the IC also adds depth and dimension to the sound along with retaining the phase coherence. This way it will complement my system fully.

I am suddenly very thankful for Dinyaar's and others advice to experiment with low cost cables first before making a costly upgrade!! :clapping: The improvement in dynamics with the profigold for INR 999/- is so significant that I doubt if extra 2 to 4K spent on any other cable will bring substantially better for the price difference - while stealthily robbing the sound of the one subtle but redeeming quality.

This example also makes a good case the wisdom of incremental upgrades!! I could have spent $$$ on a cable right at the beginning during my shopping spree, played it from day one and never realized what I was missing!! I now know exactly what I need to add to my system to really fine tune and improve it and what not to subtract!! And it has taken me months to realize it!!



TIA
Regards

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Gobble,
Aha this is the thread u were referring to. Sorry for not placing it in the first instance.
Am glad u didnt just dish out money and buy an 'expensive good IC'. See each IC brings something different. There is something gained and then there could be something lost.

Am on my way out so wont elaborate but will catch this thread later for sure.

Rgds

PS. your review was really well written.

 

[marsilians]

Marsilians

I don't get it. You sing the virtues of silver for the major part of a post then close it saying it didn't work out for you. Frankly I'm a bit perplexed. Can you elaborate?

Cheers

Hey gobble - catching up on posts after crazy work + wonderful vacation break.

My intent in the post was to highlight silver as a good medium as most people tend to write them off as being tinny. There is not much truth to it and I laid out the people perception of the same.

Now like many things in a system chain, the components have to match and in my case I already had a "forward" system and the copper was a better match for the songs I listen to.

 

[marsilians]

Excellent analyses -

for ICs, any 75 ohm cable should suffice. If you have a few lying around or can borrow from a friend, then you might as well try them. Also you can try belden coax cable for this applicaiton as well.

If you want to purchase some, blue jeans, heartland or signal cable are decent yet high VFM options.

And I am totally belonging to the school of not spending too much on cables though do like their looks sometimes like the Nordost Blue Heaven

Thanks to all for chiming in with suggestions and compliments for writing the review.

Per the suggestion of Asit I tried replacing the Pre-out Main-in factory steel plugs with a cable. The only cable (reasonably priced) I could lay my hands on was another ProfiGold pga-4201 (INR 999/- couldn't find an alternative below 3K for experimentation). I am happy to say the improvement was very significant !! The low end dynamics and extension improved really well, so did the highs sound smoother. To all this is added just a touch of depth.

However with all these improvements I lost one important quality that I immediately loved from the day I switched on my setup.

As I mentioned in my review the setup provides a very tactile feel and sensation of "hands on goat skin leather" and the sensation of "displacement of air" as the hand closes in to slap the leather on percussive instruments. The experience is not felt of course in each and every beat of the instruments or on every track ( on a well recorded track I can feel it consistently even in the next room) but when it appears - it is magical. Similarly the chimes of temple bells feel so real that many times I blink my eyes and look for the temple ( no kidding here ). You can test and compare with your own setup with tracks 2 & 3 of album SUM - Cultures of Rhythm by Taufic Qureshi, Shridhar Parthasarthy and others, label: Virgin.

Well this is gone to a slight degree with the cable swap!!

Another example is in an afro-blues track that plays a sliding metallic rhythm in the background, what I suspect is nothing more than the individual legs of a scissors rubbed together rhythmically (Album Kulanjan - Taj Mahal and Toumani Diabate). This sound has that presence with the metal plugs on, like someone outside your window ( the wandering knife sharperner) would sound - but this is again lost with the cable compared to the metal plug. [PS: Asit-ji - The finest album I've ever heard - beats Ali Farka Toure's award winning Savanne and others in its category - to me atleast !! :licklips:]

I suspect that introducing the cable between pre-out and main in is messing with the phase coherence. To be sure it wasn't due to a cable that wasn't broken in I exchanged the older profigold CDP<>AMP interconnect with the new one I got for Pre-out<>Main-in but no luck.

Luckily for me ( I wasn't even searching for it or aware of such a thing then) Wharfedale explicitly boasts about the simple crossover they implemented and resulting phase coherence (in the product promos) and its there to hear in their speakers! I would never have known what I was missing if I had purchased any other budget speaker. ( The known perceptible weakness of the Wharfedale - coloration due to cabinet resonance actually complements with phase coherence, instruments like the Pakhawaj and Dholak very brilliantly, to give a live in-the-room feel with the reverbs!!). Mind you the immediacy and presence is not as good as Vinyl but still I am slightly overjoyed that I can experience at least some of it with a digital system and feel it to be an important redeeming factor of my budget mid-fi setup.

Now suddenly I am cautious and I dont want to spend to spend 2.8K or 6K on an interconnect that will add the dynamics and frequency extensions but rob my system of its one most important quality. In fact I value the original quality so much that I swap the cable and use the plug with small band acoustic albums then swap back when I listen to western classical for the dynamics depth and clarity !!

I am now looking for a tried and tested interconnect that I know will retain phase coherence and need your advice on which one to get. It will be great if someone can affirm that "presence and immediacy" exists in his setup with X, Y or Z interconnect between pre-amp to power-amp. hyeah: Also keeping in mind the other weakness of my system - lack of depth and space, I feel extraa $$ is only worth it if the IC also adds depth and dimension to the sound along with retaining the phase coherence. This way it will complement my system fully.

I am suddenly very thankful for Dinyaar's and others advice to experiment with low cost cables first before making a costly upgrade!! :clapping: The improvement in dynamics with the profigold for INR 999/- is so significant that I doubt if extra 2 to 4K spent on any other cable will bring substantially better for the price difference - while stealthily robbing the sound of the one subtle but redeeming quality.

This example also makes a good case the wisdom of incremental upgrades!! I could have spent $$$ on a cable right at the beginning during my shopping spree, played it from day one and never realized what I was missing!! I now know exactly what I need to add to my system to really fine tune and improve it and what not to subtract!! And it has taken me months to realize it!!



TIA
Regards

 

[gobble]

Excellent analyses -

for ICs, any 75 ohm cable should suffice.

Thanks for clarifying your post on the silver. Aren't 75ohm cables used in digital AVR ICs more than pure analog audio?

Regards

 

[Asit]

Hi,
Read your experimentation and the results. Every interconnect including your steel connector (factory-supplied) will have its own character. Generally, with a better interconnect the bandwidth (range of freq) will increase, and as a result the sound will improve in depth and tonality in comparison to the one supplied in the box. Now you will have to experiment with other cables.

In a city like Bangalore, I am surprised to find that you had to buy a cable to experiment. Usually you get a few cables from your audiophile friends or borrow a few used ones from audio stores. The advantage of this method is that usually you get broken in cables and you immediately start understanding the different effects the IC's produce.

Another thing you should notice with a better interconnect is a marked improvement in stereo separation and also separation of instruments in each channel. Among popular Indian composers, AR Rahman uses many instruments. Try some of his, like track #4 of the Roja music CD or the track #4 of the Lagaan music CD. You should see a significant improvement with a reasonable IC over the stock steel connector.

I usually pay most importance to tonality and make a compromise for other things. Generally my choice has so far been limited to only a few cables. But within that I choose the one that produce the best (truest) tonality (for example for vocals).

Just remember there are no absolute rules in this game, just whatever makes you happy.

 

[square_wave]

Welcome to the hifi world Gobble ! You have written a well worded and thorough review which will be a great help to budding hifi enthusiasts
I used to own the NAD C350 and the diamond 8.4s a few years back. I can understand what you are going through now

I enjoyed it for a while. But realized what you seem to have discovered too. Western classical and complex music is where the system fails
I disagree with Venkat about the ability of speakers to push large amounts of air to reproduce western classical. Large speakers will only add presence but the muddiness in the sound will remain (sorry venkat) But I agree in principle that you need large speakers to match the scale of western classical. But the speakers need to be resolving. Resolving is the key word here.

The speakers and system need to be of the highest possible quality to reproduce western classical well. The amp needs to have tremendous head-room too with the capability of reproducing micro/macro dynamics well. The ability to reproduce the micro/macro dynamics of multitude of complex instruments is a daunting task which is the reserve of hi-end audio.

Now do not go hunting for a 24/192 DAC now. You are not even extracting 70percent of what is there in the red book cd. A well setup system can sound magical even with red book cd. If you are a true audiophile, this is just the beginning. Now I am not trying to scare you Enjoy.

 

[gobble]

Thanks. You ( and the many others who read this) have been most kind with the compliments for my writing effort. It took me a few hours to write this and then too I rushed it and left out a few crucial points I wish I had included in the original post.

I too have second thoughts about rushing for a 24/192 DAC and will take my time now and wait for for that serendipitous discovery that gives me that eureka moment before making my purchase. I see no point for example paying 18K for a CDP then getting a DAC like CA DacMagic for another 20K simply to change the sound. Might as well as have obtained a CA 740C CDP for lesser combined cost in the first place if that was the case!! Not that I yearn for the CA sound, just for the sake of an example ....

About my latest post regarding the IC, I've realized one more thing - the same thing I realized about "why vinyl sounds better" that I wish to share.

I racked my brains for weeks about what it was about my Dad's 1972 Vinyl setup (the only thing I ever heard till my late teens except for AIR on a Bush valve radio) and wondered how could an amp of 1972 give a better effect and SQ than an amp of 2000 technology era. And then suddenly the memory of that great sound dawned upon me in the form of words!!

Transients!! Analog sources result in lightning fast transients due to the continuous (infinite) signal source, whereas a digital signal source has a finite switching time per bit resulting in lack of the same dynamics. To give an example a studio master @48khz means a bit switching time of 20 microsecs per bit (48000 samples per second) whereas binaural human hearing can detect volume/amplitude changes 4 to 5 microsecs apart (dont have the reference link for this anymore, will edit and post when I locate it).

I still remember the attack and dynamics on the 1972 vinyl+amp was electrifying to say the least!! And it was not with a specific composition made to create that effect on a listener. Rather it revealed itself at every opportunity, at every second, on every single instrument in the mix, for every track I played, and I am convinced this is the crucial difference between Analog sources and redbook CDs ( all other things being equal - which in the real world never is).

As I mentioned about the profigold IC - the immediacy is gone *to a degree* but not completely. I speculated this was due to phase shifting of certain frequencies resulting in the lack of effect. Well after listening over and over to the new IC I now feel if its not gone completely and only to a degree - it may be something other than absolute phase of certain signal frequencies. Then, recalling the example of the sound of temple bells in a track forcing me to blink involuntarily each time - with the stainless steel factory supplied jumper, my idea is beginning to veer more towards the notion that the profigold IC is not as good with transients as the steel jumper. And perhaps this is what is causing everything to sound more "distant" and diminishing (thankfully not wiping out) the great effects like tactile sound and feel of air movement on the drums. Paradoxically the low freq extension (did I say dynamics?!! ) as well as high end clarity have improved considerably with the new IC. Aaargh!! Now that's why audiophillia can be so confounding!! :lol:

So maybe I jumped to conclusions about the phase shift and am now not totally convinced if a cable can introduce phase shifts at all, or if it does it may be for certain frequencies and then it may be a mix of both...

But hey I think I am boring you all with my obsessions and ruminations over a bullock-cart why most of you all own Merc's and space-craft ( The audio equivalent atleast).

Feel free not to reply just for the sake of politeness :lol:

Cheers

 

[dinyaar]

HAHAHA

U have a way with words gobble. Enjoyable read, not boring in the least!!

Just borrow some decent VDH/Kimber etc IC from a friend and replace the links and see if u find an improvement. If thats not possible just let things be and enjoy the set up. Please dont go buying Profiold and similar and just parting with your money.

There was a time not long ago that i had bought a 'boxed' Kimber PBJ (peanut butter jam) IC from the US for 30$ and it still amazes me. It looks like some el cheapo cable with no screen and moderate RCAs but performs well even today. The Timbre is a replacement for this PBJ and i really recommend it to anyone who wants an IC upgrade for a starter set up. IMO it will blow lots of the current BEST SELLERS away. Problem is now even the timbre is priced at 7500/- for a 1 meter pair!!!!!!

Cheers

 

[marsilians]

Thanks for clarifying your post on the silver. Aren't 75ohm cables used in digital AVR ICs more than pure analog audio?

Regards

Sorry catching up on posts after a brief hiatus. The impedance of the cable has no bearing for analog applications which means that you can use a coax (75 ohm) cable. A good example is Belkin 1694A thats typically used as coax cable and yet can be (and has been) used as analog cables.

 

[square_wave]

The ProfiGold pga-4201 is a I metre interconnect right. You replaced a two inch solid metal jumper with this I am sure you have gone backwards now. I used to own the C350 many moons back. I had tried the same thing once and could not unearth any +ve change. Then I got a short (3 inches) interconnect made by Murthy (dont know if you are familiar with this gentleman).That made a difference. Slightly more open sound. If you are in Bangalore, you could check him out. His interconnects and speaker cables beat most 10 - 15k ones in the market. A friend has recently replaced his 15k interconnects (each one)with his silver interconnects. PM me if you want to check him out. He has a shop in commercial street.

 

[gobble]

Thanks. I know Mr. Murthy, he is quite a gentleman and an audiophile with a great setup.

He has offered to lend some ICs in the past, its just that I couldn't make time to meet him since more than a month. I will try and meet him this weekend and try his ICs.

Glad you reminded me.

Regards

 

[gobble]

PS: I wouldn't say I've gone backwards - the sound is better in many respects except for the one thing I detailed above.

I was hoping to make a 4 inch IC and planned on meeting Mr. Murthy precisely for that reason.

Cheers

 

[square_wave]

Make it as small as possible. 3 inches should suffice.

 

[Asit]

Gobble, it's just a pre-amp and a power amp connection and many people do it usually with a 1m IC because that is the predominant length available. However, it is also true (as square_wave has mentioned) the shorter the cable the better it is, I guess, although I do not really know if 1m length really makes a negative effect if the cable is a reasonably good one. I used a mid-level QED IC to connect the pre-out and the main-in of the Nad c325bee and got significant improvement in all areas. I suppose the solution square_wave has suggested perhaps would be the most cost effective one. But I am just curious to know your findings: if you get hold of a mid-fi kind of good quality IC and use that to connect the pre-out and the main-in, whether that improves in the areas that was lacking with the Profigold IC.

 

[marsilians]

Make it as small as possible. 3 inches should suffice.

SW, I am trying to picture a pre- and power whose connections are just 3 inches apart. How have you placed these? Mine are 1.5 ft and that gives just a bit of slack so as to not damage the connectors on the components.