Marantz CD6002+NAD c325BEE+WharfeDale 9.2 Review

[gobble]

Hey, I was only joking (forgot to add smiley) pardon me. I'm not dumping my equipment and I don't really think it is a burden either . I'm happy with the musicality of the NAD for sure. Lest anyone researching his next purchase mistake me - it is an adequate sounding amp too. I was only searching for that extra Oomph. I am beginning to suspect that the amount of reflections in my small room are interfering even more than I originally imagined them to. Like the way our vehicles sound changes when passing a tarpulin sheet by the roadside or causeway, the reflections are coloring the sound and making it look like my beloved NAD's fault. I have this gut feeling that once I play it in an acoustically well treated room, its going to make the NAD shine even brighter

That said, I can't help wondering if a speaker with 90db sensitivity is going to add that oomph to the sound at low volumes. Here I go again .... (sigh!)

I truly appreciate all your advice and reassurances. I will try out the IL/ICs and post an opinion next week.

Best
Gobble

 

[murali_n]

Hi Gobble,

I had the same problem of very flat sound stage in my NORGE 2060 + 3-way DIY Speakers. But improved it by changing my Speaker cables. Its a DIY cable made of Imported 4 core 1.5 sq.mm OFC copper (Braided). I connected the opposite runs in parallel and used for +ve and the other pair for -ve. I also gave a couple of twists to the interconnect between the DVD Player and the Amp. Also try connecting your whole setup to a good UPS supply for Noise free power. This way I think you should have improved performance.

Pl keep us posted with the results.

N Murali.

 

[marsilians]

Hi Gobble

Very well written review though I have to admit that I have not read one so far with 38 emoticons in them!

What I noticed off the bat was that yours is a classic British sound signature setup that emphasizes smoothness and easy roll offs than dynamics enhancement. I think the reason Vikku or Krishna Raghavendra sound so beautiful is that these albums empahsize the higher frequencies which balance the laid back signature very very well. Its a perfect complement.

I am sure Lata or Subbulakshmi or a violin rendition would sound phenomenol through your setup.

The Marantz also has pretty OK bass which the NAD sould emphasize sufficiently just enough to not sound boomy. In this case, the wharfs may be colouring it a bit as they go down only some bit for LFE.

This could be the reason you are not able to get the complete dynamics for western classical as they usually cover a very broad range of frequencies in even a single composition.

YOu have provided lots of pointers to other owners and would be's as well. Also bottom line is that there is no one system that will do justice to lots of genres and yours is no different. So enjoy it for the time being.

Few things you could try to see where you end up in sound:

Not sure if you have broken in your components, but I have seen that all the brands you have do benefit from about 150-200 hrs breakin period.

Try moving the speakers farther out to see if it makes a difference. Even couple feet further would enhance the sound stage.

If you ever get a chance and have extra money to burn, try to use pure silver interconnects (not silver coated) as they will enhance the upper frequencies. Best thing is to borrow from a friend and use it for couple days and then decide on the buy.

Again good job.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi,
Marsilians i am curious about your suggestion on a pure silver IC. Any particular one that u have in mind. Solid core or Multi strand?
Its not that i am disputing your opinion i just need an example. I have been playing with ICs of all materials for long now so it just adds to the data base. On Asits thread the name of my friend Jim was mentioned and his auditions in bglore. Now Jim has got cables made from 'pure silver ' and they sound brittle and awful and cost a ton.

Some pure silver cables that i can think of will cost more than his set up and some much more so am wondering. Actually if its silver that is appealing to u why is a dense silver coating not good enough. If u accept that signal takes the easiest path / where it encounters least resistance / on the circumference rather than thru the core (hence claimed skin effect) why is a silver coated copper any inferior to pure silver? We are not talking different techniques of braiding etc etc just comparison of the metals.
Rgds

 

[gobble]

Few things you could try to see where you end up in sound:

Not sure if you have broken in your components, but I have seen that all the brands you have do benefit from about 150-200 hrs breakin period.

Try moving the speakers farther out to see if it makes a difference. Even couple feet further would enhance the sound stage.

If you ever get a chance and have extra money to burn, try to use pure silver interconnects (not silver coated) as they will enhance the upper frequencies. Best thing is to borrow from a friend and use it for couple days and then decide on the buy.

Again good job.

Hello Marsilians, Dinyaar

My system isn't broken in yet - its only 85 days old with playing time less than 60 hours. I read the thread dinyaar mentioned and I am going to be extremely wary of spending $$ without auditioning on my own setup first.

There is not much room to move my speakers further apart. They are 18" away from the side walls and the cone is about 20" from the rear and roughly 1.6 mts apart. I am searching for a new place, and hopefully will find a place with minimum room dimension of 12 feet withing my budget. That should give me some room to space things out. My current living room is actually 15 feet long, but its kinda occupied so the bedroom is the only place I can keep my setup. Besides the mattress and wardrobe help absorb many of the hig mids.

This Weekend will be my first experiment with ICs . I will keep you posted.

Regards

 

[gobble]

Hi Gobble,

I had the same problem of very flat sound stage in my NORGE 2060 + 3-way DIY Speakers. But improved it by changing my Speaker cables. Its a DIY cable made of Imported 4 core 1.5 sq.mm OFC copper (Braided). I connected the opposite runs in parallel and used for +ve and the other pair for -ve. I also gave a couple of twists to the interconnect between the DVD Player and the Amp. Also try connecting your whole setup to a good UPS supply for Noise free power. This way I think you should have improved performance.

Pl keep us posted with the results.

N Murali.

Interesting DIY stuff. I'm not an electronics guy so will have to depend on ready made DIY stuff supplied by others.
I am planning on an Isolation Transformer by June.

Regards

 

[marsilians]

Hi Dinyaar

The reason I want gobble to try silver interconnects is that it allows for a lot of dynamics on the top end of frequencies. Most listeners term the effects of silver to be "bright with excellent highs and resolution" I think these characteristics would nicely complement the British sound signature that has excellent mid and low end but real quick roll offs at the top end.

I have chosen my words carefully in the earlier post to state if gobble has the patience and money to try this option out. I have used silver ICs once in my system but did not like the increase in dynamics as it sounded artificial, however mine is a US/Canada based system that is "foward" to some degree. However one immediate thought that came to my mind when listening to drum solos was that this would enhance a laid back system very well. The dynamics extension due ot silver is very perceptible even if majority of your system cables are copper. So I think its an option worth trying out esp. if you can borrow one for some time.

I have not spent significant time between experimenting with braided vs. solid core, so I will suggest the latter as a matter of experience and preference. I have not heard that big a change in dynamics with braids frankly. so will not get into a holy war with that.

One excellent place to get cheap yet solid ICs is at YACCo. Cables Selection

Very straight forward, reasonable to deal with and don't have any BS surrounding their model.

Hi,
Marsilians i am curious about your suggestion on a pure silver IC. Any particular one that u have in mind. Solid core or Multi strand?
Its not that i am disputing your opinion i just need an example. I have been playing with ICs of all materials for long now so it just adds to the data base. On Asits thread the name of my friend Jim was mentioned and his auditions in bglore. Now Jim has got cables made from 'pure silver ' and they sound brittle and awful and cost a ton.

Some pure silver cables that i can think of will cost more than his set up and some much more so am wondering. Actually if its silver that is appealing to u why is a dense silver coating not good enough. If u accept that signal takes the easiest path / where it encounters least resistance / on the circumference rather than thru the core (hence claimed skin effect) why is a silver coated copper any inferior to pure silver? We are not talking different techniques of braiding etc etc just comparison of the metals.
Rgds

 

[dinyaar]

Thanks Marsilians. If it works for u thats it and that s all that matters.

Most guys will claim that silver has a sparkle but i have heard silver cables( audio note silvers that cost the earth) sound smoother than anthing. No sheen, glare or anthing that most silver are claimed to exhibit. Most VDH cables are coated in silver (check out the quality and the degree of coating, its superb) and yet they can sound dull. Some even refer to the Co as van den DULL.
I saw the link. They are trying (not entirely though) to emulate a Kimber RCA. They claim that 28 ft of pure silver wire goes into an inter connect that they retail for 90USD. Keeping current cost of silver i am a bit perplexed. Its basically a litz braid of 7 pure, solid core silver. Have never heard the cable so cant comment on the sonics.
RGDS

 

[Asit]

Most guys will claim that silver has a sparkle but i have heard silver cables( audio note silvers that cost the earth) sound smoother than anthing. No sheen, glare or anthing that most silver are claimed to exhibit. Most VDH cables are coated in silver (check out the quality and the degree of coating, its superb) and yet they can sound dull. Some even refer to the Co as van den DULL.

Dinyaar, I fully agree with your observation of the VDH and the silver-coating. I currently use an entry level VDH (the Clearwater) speaker cable which is silver-coated. In Kolkata, for similar price the alternative was the QED Silver Anniversary XT which is silver-coated too. Although I could not do a fair comparison with the same set-up, my impression was that the QED had a bit too much sparkle for me, and the VDH had it just right, slightly on the duller side but compared well with my previous speaker cable (which was actually Groeneberg cable, I did not know, but recently found out). The only funny thing is that the previous cable was really thick and the Clearwater is just two thin cables separated and insulated from each other by a flat light creamish yellow synthetic material (plastic?).

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,
Clearwater is mid level, entry level is clearline,skyline etc.... The jacket is 'hulliflex' not plastic and is proven to last ages and can withstand all the elements easily. Its a good cable(14AWG) with good tonal balance . CS 122 will be a step up, little thicker (12AWG) and has a carbon coating around the wire and hence is a hybrid. For most systems the clearwater is more than enough cable u will need. Just terminate it and u wont have to worry for ages.

I respect VDH and the fact that they really push the envelope and experiment. They dont buy cables from bulk mfrs and stamp and re package and sell at high prices. Since u are using this speaker wire u should try the D102 MIII as the Interlink. Can get used ones for 2/3 K and is very good VFM.
Rgds

 

[Asit]

Sorry Gobble, with this continuing discussion on the cables, but some of it may indeed be of interest to you as it is certainly enlightening me.

Indeed, dinyaar, your description of the VDH Clearwater is spot on. Boy, you sound like a walking encyclopedia on cables (and other things like amps). I checked the site and the jacket is "transparent HULLIFLEX 3, a robust halogen free material excellently capable of shielding the copper conductors from the chemically threatening outside world".
The cable actually consists of 2 groups of strands with a conductor size of AWG 14 and is a "a twin-lead construction ... made with 2 x 98 strands of a dense very pure silver coated Matched Crystal (MC) OFC ".

I use 2 x 3 m lengths, cost me Rs 600/m (after negotiations).

For interconnect I was using QED Qunex 1 or 2, I think, again some entry level cable at 2 or 2.5K per 1m (I forgot the details of the price). I have four of these cables, and they are not bad, VFM I think (significantly better than one cheap Monster cable which I also own and some entry level DAC cables which I once bought from SKS Kolkata, but soon returned).

With the Nad, I connected the pre-out and the main-in with one of these QED cables and got significantly much better performance over the factory supplied metal connector.

For the connection between my CA 740c CDP and my amps (Nad or the HK), I am now using a 0.75m long Azur Reference cable (from CA, costing 2.7K) which I compared with
a XLO interconnect at SKS Traders and the QED cables at home. This cable was on par with the XLO and definitely better than the QED's.

Where do you get these VDH D102 MIII cables at such prices? I can perhaps sell my QED cables and get a few of these. Send me a PM if you feel like.

 

[gobble]

I think these characteristics would nicely complement the British sound signature that has excellent mid and low end but real quick roll offs at the top end.

The NAD is Canada based isn't it? Marantz was born in Japan (Marantz History). Only the speaker is British.

The treble on the NAD isnt superfine and silky smooth I agree. but that isn't the British signature - or is it? When I auditioned the Pioneer PD-D6-J with my NAD ( with really lousy HT speakers), the treble was finer but sounded like the tinkle of fine glass shattering. My NAD wasn't able to do justice and provide that silky smooth effect. Atleast I thought so at that point.

Interestingly many reviewers give credit to the NAD for a wide sound stage that gives individual instruments room to breathe. In my review I attributed it to the Marantz CDP, but I wouldn't know until I hear the CDP with another amp.

I wouldn't buy anything now without listening to it on my setup for the synergy.

Regards

 

[gobble]

Another point I forgot to mention - The Wharfedale 9.2s sound a little lifeless at low volumes, when I really need to sleep and the volume is faint.
What kind of speaker specs will give that liquid flowing sound at ultra low volumes? 90db sensitivity?

Regards

 

[thevortex]

Another point I forgot to mention - The Wharfedale 9.2s sound a little lifeless at low volumes, when I really need to sleep and the volume is faint.
What kind of speaker specs will give that liquid flowing sound at ultra low volumes? 90db sensitivity?

Regards

You touch a point which I place a great deal of emphasis on! The floorstanders that I auditioned in the 'around 40K' price range could not do this effectively at all. Some of them were highly sensitive as well. So, I would rule out sensitivity as an aspect which affects low volume listening quality.

In general though I have found that bookshelves retain clarity, dynamics and soul of the music even at very low volumes. Floorstanders at the budget I mention could not match them in this quality. And yes, I love to listen to music as I sleep so this was important to me.

Both the bookshelves that I have now (the PSB Alpha B1 as well as the EPOS M12.2) excel in this department. Even though the EPOS is not a very sensitive speaker per se, it does the job I need it to - at any volume. And although it has got a very English style of music delivery, it conveys human voice in a way that I have heard very few speakers do. Nothing added, nothing deleted. Just the voices in your room - minus the speakers, electronics, cables and all that clap trap! Exactly what I was after.

Coming back to your question I do not know what it is that lends a speaker to good low volume listenability. But I can share for sure that it is not sensitivity. I wonder if I can venture to say that the speakers which can retain everything of the music even at low volumes are better ones. I realize that would be a generalization, but it seems to me that if a speaker can keep things in focus even at very volumes, the higher volume performance is totally based on your upstream electronics.

 

[gobble]

Thanks. Whats the going price of the Epos you mentioned by the way?

Just curious.

Regards

 

[thevortex]

Well, its going, going and gone! The model I have is the older version of the current EPOS model - M12i. Personally I prefer the M12.2 in all aspects - looks and sound. To be fair to the 12i's I have not had too much time with them, but consider me prejudiced by the 12.2's that I do not even seriously consider them.

I think the price for the 12.2's is 34000 while the new 12i's are going at around 40000-42000.

 

[Asit]

The low volume punch perhaps depends more on the amp than the sensitvity of the speaker. For example, I have speakers which have quite high sensitivity of 93.4 db/W/m. For well recorded CDs, with my Nad I need to go to 10PM volume setting to get a bit punchy sound, below that it is a bit stale. With the HK amp, lower volume produces better punch.

Recently I have heard both the Epos M12.2 and the M12i speakers for reasoanbly long hours. My impression was that the M12i speakers had better bass, but in most aspects they are very similar. Vortex owns the 12.2 and would be in a better position to say if the newer 12i is worth a price close to 50K where you can get the Dali Ikon2's.

 

[thevortex]

The low volume punch perhaps depends more on the amp than the sensitvity of the speaker. For example, I have speakers which have quite high sensitivity of 93.4 db/W/m. For well recorded CDs, with my Nad I need to go to 10PM volume setting to get a bit punchy sound, below that it is a bit stale. With the HK amp, lower volume produces better punch.

Recently I have heard both the Epos M12.2 and the M12i speakers for reasoanbly long hours. My impression was that the M12i speakers had better bass, but in most aspects they are very similar. Vortex owns the 12.2 and would be in a better position to say if the newer 12i is worth a price close to 50K where you can get the Dali Ikon2's.

Really the only difference that I was able to make out was a very slight edge in detailing in favour of the 12i - but this was not over an extended listening session. So I will not set this in stone.

However what I did notice is that I like the highs and the way they are accentuated and/or rolled off in the 12.2's as opposed to the 12i's. There is an ethereal quality to the highs - especially vocals - of the 12.2's that I will not say is missing altogether in the 12.2, but I get the impression that the highs are a bit more strident there (12i's that is).

Lastly these are the speakers that convinced me that at a budget of around 50K - one can do better things than look at floorstanders. Especially if you already have a good subwoofer.

 

[marsilians]

hi gobble

I mentioned the classic british sound (not british made). NAD & Wharfs are British. At the time Marantz made its foray into consumer electronics it came out of a plant in Sheffield while being owned by Philips. Currently it is owned by D&M holdings (Denon & Marantz) in Japan which also owns McIntosh & Boston Acoustics and lots of other brands. This is all a result of consolidation in the industry thats been happening for many years now. Through all these transformations, marantz sound has remained true and top quality.

Its very hard to survive as a lone entity given the plethora of offerings, so from that perspective Yamaha and Pioneer are sort of bellweathers.

The Japanese representation of Marantz is only from 1999 or 2000.

The NAD is Canada based isn't it? Marantz was born in Japan (Marantz History). Only the speaker is British.

The treble on the NAD isnt superfine and silky smooth I agree. but that isn't the British signature - or is it? When I auditioned the Pioneer PD-D6-J with my NAD ( with really lousy HT speakers), the treble was finer but sounded like the tinkle of fine glass shattering. My NAD wasn't able to do justice and provide that silky smooth effect. Atleast I thought so at that point.

Interestingly many reviewers give credit to the NAD for a wide sound stage that gives individual instruments room to breathe. In my review I attributed it to the Marantz CDP, but I wouldn't know until I hear the CDP with another amp.

I wouldn't buy anything now without listening to it on my setup for the synergy.

Regards

 

[dinyaar]

Sorry Gobble, with this continuing discussion on the cables, but some of it may indeed be of interest to you as it is certainly enlightening me.

Indeed, dinyaar, your description of the VDH Clearwater is spot on. Boy, you sound like a walking encyclopedia on cables (and other things like amps). I checked the site and the jacket is "transparent HULLIFLEX 3, a robust halogen free material excellently capable of shielding the copper conductors from the chemically threatening outside world".
The cable actually consists of 2 groups of strands with a conductor size of AWG 14 and is a "a twin-lead construction ... made with 2 x 98 strands of a dense very pure silver coated Matched Crystal (MC) OFC ".

I use 2 x 3 m lengths, cost me Rs 600/m (after negotiations).

For interconnect I was using QED Qunex 1 or 2, I think, again some entry level cable at 2 or 2.5K per 1m (I forgot the details of the price). I have four of these cables, and they are not bad, VFM I think (significantly better than one cheap Monster cable which I also own and some entry level DAC cables which I once bought from SKS Kolkata, but soon returned).

With the Nad, I connected the pre-out and the main-in with one of these QED cables and got significantly much better performance over the factory supplied metal connector.

For the connection between my CA 740c CDP and my amps (Nad or the HK), I am now using a 0.75m long Azur Reference cable (from CA, costing 2.7K) which I compared with
a XLO interconnect at SKS Traders and the QED cables at home. This cable was on par with the XLO and definitely better than the QED's.

Where do you get these VDH D102 MIII cables at such prices? I can perhaps sell my QED cables and get a few of these. Send me a PM if you feel like.

Asit,
I am very very familiar with VDH,Kimber, Transparent, Supra. Must have checked their sites countless times and owned/own tons of their cables.
U people pay too much. Rs 600 for clearwater!!!!!!!!!! I sold almost new CS 122 for less. Anyway this D102MK III is supposed to be 3600/Meter and each VDH RCA is Rs 750 so in theory the cable in 1M pair is about 10 K but can be had for about 6/7K with Neutrik connectors. I sold off a couple on this forum itself for 4k each with transparent RCA which is as good as the VDH Rca if not better. A cable does not age, please buy used and save money. Now i only have one more pair but i will check if audionut will sell one of his many pairs.
Rgds