Mass DVD/CD player vs dedicated CD players such as mmarantz, Ca

[amateur]

Hello all,

A basic question - is there any difference if u take digital output coaxial from these players and feed to a Dac - meaning digital output will be of same quality?

Taking the coax digital out from Samsung DVD player compared to a say Marantz one or Cambridge audio - would that make any difference in the signal quality ?

 

[reignofchaos]

Garbage in garbage out. All spdif outs are not created equal. However to be strictly honest, most can or marantz CD players aren't that great either as far as their digital out is concerned.

 

[amateur]

Oh, thought they could be same, which one is good - coax out or optical
Any reco for good cd/ DVD player ?

 

[rajudhs]

I think the question is

1: (Normal Bluray player panasonic/LG/Samsung)
CD Stereo - SPDIF Optical Out + external DAC = X Quality

2: (Dedicated CD player Marantz/Cambridge Audio etc)
CD Stereo - SPDIF Optical Out + external DAC = Y Quality

Is X and Y result in same quality?

why do i need to spend 25K for option #2 above, if no difference in quality.

PS: i understand that in option #2 above, if i use analog out to amplifer the quality will be better.
But if i just make PCM stereo signal output by SPDIF to external DAC.
The source player should not matter right???


Can someone please clarify this. as i am holding back not to invest 25K more for a dedicated CD player, as i already have external DAC.

 

[reignofchaos]

There is more to spdif than just digital zeroes and ones. Finally these zeroes and ones are transmitted as a square wave which is created using analog components. This can lead to poor quality waveforms with distortion because of poorr power supplies and also cases where each crest and trough of the wave is of unequal length leading to timing errors also known as jitter. This will be more if the source has a poor clock which is especially the case with mass market DVD players. The problem will be lower with an entry level CD player and the best output will be from dedicated transports for CD such as vrds neo from esoteric or CD pro2 used in many high end transports.

 

[manoj.p]

I think the question is

1: (Normal Bluray player panasonic/LG/Samsung)
CD Stereo - SPDIF Optical Out + external DAC = X Quality

2: (Dedicated CD player Marantz/Cambridge Audio etc)
CD Stereo - SPDIF Optical Out + external DAC = Y Quality

Is X and Y result in same quality?

why do i need to spend 25K for option #2 above, if no difference in quality.

PS: i understand that in option #2 above, if i use analog out to amplifer the quality will be better.
But if i just make PCM stereo signal output by SPDIF to external DAC.
The source player should not matter right???


Can someone please clarify this. as i am holding back not to invest 25K more for a dedicated CD player, as i already have external DAC.

Save your money. In this case, the player is being used as a transport. The quality will be dictated by DAC and the preamp stage. This is a classic audiophile myth. As for the clock in the player, it does not come into picture. The DAC clock becomes the master and that's what matters.

 

[reignofchaos]

Save your money. In this case, the player is being used as a transport. The quality will be dictated by DAC and the preamp stage. This is a classic audiophile myth. As for the clock in the player, it does not come into picture. The DAC clock becomes the master and that's what matters.

How does the DAC clock become master over spdif when the clock is embedded in the signal? How does the preamp come to the picture here? Do you even have a clue of what you are typing?

Your entire comment smells of bovine excrement.

 

[manoj.p]

How does the DAC clock become master over spdif when the clock is embedded in the signal? How does the preamp come to the picture here? Do you even have a clue of what you are typing?

Your entire comment smells of bovine excrement.

Well, I do know what I am talking about. But do you?

Every digital stream, irrespective whether its audio or anything contains an embedded clock. This is even true with USB/Ethernet or any other communication protocol. The downstream application also has a clock, in this case - the DAC. The DAC then becomes the master clock and the embedded clock in the stream becomes the slave. This master-slave clock then act in sync. If there is any timing error/delay, the master clock has the built in wait (in terms of milliseconds depends upon cache) or it gives the error. If that happens, some DAC's put out a click, some just obscure/hide it. But it would give the signal that there is a disconnect. This master-slave of the clocks is the basis of all the communication between two digital devices.

As for my pre-amp comment, it was made in the sense that pre-amp is the analog stage and it matters more (along with DAC) than the digital transport for audio quality. But it's beyond your capability to grasp.

And one last thing. Don't try to be smart ass and insult others. If you want to argue, then come out with arguments rather than using mean words. I have been raised to be respectful to others but I don't share the same ideologies for the dirt-bags. So be careful with your words, else those may also be shoved through your throat. Incidentally, right now those are filled with "Bovine" shit.

 

[jai1611]

Well, I do know what I am talking about. But do you?

Every digital stream, irrespective whether its audio or anything contains an embedded clock. This is even true with USB/Ethernet or any other communication protocol. The downstream application also has a clock, in this case - the DAC. The DAC then becomes the master clock and the embedded clock in the stream becomes the slave. This master-slave clock then act in sync. If there is any timing error/delay, the master clock has the built in wait (in terms of milliseconds depends upon cache) or it gives the error. If that happens, some DAC's put out a click, some just obscure/hide it. But it would give the signal that there is a disconnect. This master-slave of the clocks is the basis of all the communication between two digital devices.

As for my pre-amp comment, it was made in the sense that pre-amp is the analog stage and it matters more (along with DAC) than the digital transport for audio quality. But it's beyond your capability to grasp.

One question - have you compared two transports with the same DAC in a resolving setup? If yes, did you not hear a difference? I'd shared my experiences here: http://www.hifivision.com/cd-players/28655-transports.html

From what I know, most DACs do use the clock incoming from the SPDIF signal. Exceptions are the ones which have an async sample rate converter built in, where the option to use the internal clock exists.

One other point - data read of a CD by a player also depends on how good the quality of the laser pickup is - remember, unlike PC, this is a single pass process so if the drive skips some data, it never gets passed on to the DAC.

 

[reignofchaos]

Well, I do know what I am talking about. But do you?

Every digital stream, irrespective whether its audio or anything contains an embedded clock. This is even true with USB/Ethernet or any other communication protocol. The downstream application also has a clock, in this case - the DAC. The DAC then becomes the master clock and the embedded clock in the stream becomes the slave. This master-slave clock then act in sync. If there is any timing error/delay, the master clock has the built in wait (in terms of milliseconds depends upon cache) or it gives the error. If that happens, some DAC's put out a click, some just obscure/hide it. But it would give the signal that there is a disconnect. This master-slave of the clocks is the basis of all the communication between two digital devices.

As for my pre-amp comment, it was made in the sense that pre-amp is the analog stage and it matters more (along with DAC) than the digital transport for audio quality. But it's beyond your capability to grasp.

And one last thing. Don't try to be smart ass and insult others. If you want to argue, then come out with arguments rather than using mean words. I have been raised to be respectful to others but I don't share the same ideologies for the dirt-bags. So be careful with your words, else those may also be shoved through your throat. Incidentally, right now those are filled with "Bovine" shit.

Again you are spewing bovine excrement. What you say happens only in case of async USB DACs. There is no master slave in case of spdif unless there is an external word clock input output. How do you think will spdif sync backwards? It is a one way transmission.

The click that you talk about is a relay switching to change the dac's internal clock. It has got nothing to do with master or slave. Most mass market DACs use a PLL to correct incoming clock errors but this is not 100 percent fool proof. Look at the waveform of a transport's square wave output on a scope and you will not be posting anything here in this thread again.

Instead of blabbering crap, try and experiment and see for yourself. Half knowledge gained over the web is worse than no knowledge.

If you have only used ht equipment, please leave your comments only in the ht section and don't keep spewing half science here.

 

[amateur]

thank you all for your replies, seems there are many for and against arguments in this regard - having mass cd player as transport vs dedicated one as transport.

if it's not for SPDIF ( toslink)i.e. optical, if it's via digital coaxial also going by the arguments, there are for and against i.e. cd as a transport also should be good enough versus any cd player as only transport should be ok.

basically this is for a stereo amp that has inbuilt DAC - would it make sense to still go for a good CD player ( stereo amp's dac will be used ) only for transport ..

 

[Shivam]

Try and experiment. Whatever sounds good to you is what you should opt for. Sometimes you might find real performance of a component in your system quite different from actual name or fame.

 

[amateur]

absolutely agree with you.

 

[jls001]

"The ilk of the cow is bovine; One end to moo, and the other to milch" (with much apologies to Ogden Nash)

Chill, guys.

 

[srisaikat]

I also have been trying to find the answer for a very long time. I do not know exactly why (may be better power regulation and design), but from practical experience I can say for sure that dedicated CD Player always sound superior than Cheapo DVD/BD player when playing Audio CD using SPDIF out through external DAC. So I am yet searching for a good and solid explanation.

 

[amateur]

I also have been trying to find the answer for a very long time. I do not know exactly why (may be better power regulation and design), but from practical experience I can say for sure that dedicated CD Player always sound superior than Cheapo DVD/BD player when playing Audio CD using SPDIF out through external DAC. So I am yet searching for a good and solid explanation.

If I understand you rightly SPDIF ( optical link) is better than digital coax even in dedicated cd players ?

 

[jls001]

If I understand you rightly SPDIF ( optical link) is better than digital coax even in dedicated cd players ?

He has not mentioned "optical link" or "coax" anywhere in his post. He only said SPDIF Why are you putting words into his mouth?

 

[amateur]

He has not mentioned "optical link" or "coax" anywhere in his post. He only said SPDIF Why are you putting words into his mouth?

agreed, thanks my bad - I seem to always assume that SPDIF is Toslink which is not so.

 

[jls001]

agreed, thanks my bad - I seem to always assume that SPDIF is Toslink which is not so.

S/PDIF is either electrical coaxial (most commonly terminated on RCA/cinch connectors) or optical (TOSLINK).

 

[venkatcr]

A basic question - is there any difference if u take digital output coaxial from these players and feed to a Dac - meaning digital output will be of same quality?

Taking the coax digital out from Samsung DVD player compared to a say Marantz one or Cambridge audio - would that make any difference in the signal quality ?

I think there are two separate questions being confused here. One is the source and the other is the transport mechanism.

1. Is there a difference between a mass market DVD player and a dedicated CD Player? Yes and no. Let me explain. If you take a Samsung DVD player and compare it to a Marantz CD player, the Marantz will beat the pants off the Samsung keeping everything else the same. In most cases, a dedicated CD player from Cambridge Audio will also beat the pants off the Samsung.

At the same time, if you take a Universal Player from Oppo and compare it to a Marantz or a Cambridge Audio, you will be hard pressed to tell the difference. Both players have dedicated circuits for audio. Of course Marantz has been a master in superb CD players for a very long time.

Will any dedicated CD player beat any mass market DVD player? - Nope. One can never give an answer to this question unless your specify the models. Marantz, CA and a lot of other companies make DVD/BD players that output very good audio also.

Now, when you take the digital out from a mass market DVD player and a dedicated CD player and feed it to a DAC, there will be differences. The difference is not because of the 'digital out' which is common in both cases. It is because the way the source picks up the information from the CD and sends it to you.

Now one can say, digital is digital. So why should there be a difference? Essentially because of two main points. The DVD player is designed to read denser information on a media of the same size. Now before people jump on me, please search and read a technical document I have written somewhere on HifiVision on this. This is, to sum it up, the same difference between data transmission and transmission of audio and video between any two digital points. In data transmission, the receiving end does a checksum error and requests for re-transmission. In audio or video there is no checksum error. So if the pickup head picks up an error, that is transmitted as is.

Secondly, in a DVD player, the internal circuit board is designed more for video than for audio. It does not care too much for the audio part.

A dedicated CD player is focused on just audio. It makes less errors when reading the disks, the processing of the audio is better, and so the resultant output will be 'better'.

What the 'digital out, S/PDIF or any other transport mechanism does is irrelevant here. What the DAC does downstream is also irrelevant for this discussion.

To answer a question raised by the OP further down - is Toslink better than co-axial - the answer is subjective. Technically, a digital co-axial and Toslink should deliver the same identical quality. The argument that Toslink is faster does not hold ground as the bandwidth of digital coaxial is more than enough for audio transmission. You really have to read the manufacturers recommendation and use the connection he prescribes. Remember, in most cases, processing digital coaxial output is easier. Processing Toslink is a bit more expensive and complicated - at both ends.


Cheers