Mind the gap!

[prem]

The solution to that is to have only one speaker at home

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Me too. So for us, that 1m has to be mean of the distance between a) speaker baffle and front wall and b) speaker baffle and cabinet front. Which might translate that 115cm to somewhere closer to or below 1 m for you.

What I reported above as 95 cm was from speaker rear to front wall (ie the gap). Add 32 cm of speaker depth and it becomes 127 cm from the baffle to the front wall which is well beyond the 1m mark. But then if the cabinet is treated as a part wall that the bass from the speakers see, then I’d need to consider the average distance from speaker baffle to this composite wall (actual wall plus cabinet front) which (without typing the calculations here), 103 cm instead of 127 cm. And that’s very close to 1 m. If I pull another 5 cm away, the sound collapses. That’s in line with the theory Prem mentioned.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Me too. So for us, that 1m has to be mean of the distance between a) speaker baffle and front wall and b) speaker baffle and cabinet front. Which might translate that 115cm to somewhere closer to or below 1 m for you.

Hey! That's a great explanation!

 

[Analogous]

If I start with the speakers very close to the front wall and move them out bit by bit, then they sound best when the front baffle is 45 inches (115cms) from the front wall. Less than this they sound muffled, more than this they lose focus. Focus is regained at around 2.5 meters, but why should I pull them out so much at the cost of precious real estate?
In my case, I hit the optimum position only after trespassing the prohibited range of 1 -2.2m. So while the various recommendations may be fine in theory and good starting points, I think it is totally worth the effort, even if impractical, to do a speaker crawl.

I have been doing this crawl too - every few days. The challenge is my unreliable memory of the sound over time and trying to decide which I like better. My speakers are on a never ending journey (in spurts) within a small space it’s fun once I reconciled myself there are many good spots to be discovered. So much to do, so little time...

 

[Deleted member 15865]

We should do a community PhD on the subject.

But seriously, is there a online (model) community award? Hifivision should definitely apply/get nominated for the same.

 

[firearm12]

Here is my take, I used to have small bookshelf speakers few years back at my flat, they used to sound tremendous in my small cozy rectangular room. I used to enjoy them everytime music played on them and i considered them one of the greatest speakers. They were advertised by the manufacturer to especially sound good while close to back wall or kept on a bookshelf. Here is quote from manufacturer website:

"For optimum performance, DALI MENUET should be positioned in a bookshelf or mounted on the wall using an optional wall bracket."

My story said otherwise. I felt that the speakers sounded best when kept on stands and 3 ft forward from front wall and around 6 ft apart in my room. Infact they sounded crap to me if i tried to wall mount them or keep them too close to walls in that room.

Now same speakers on same stands are now moved to my home town, which is a traditional house with high ceilings and rooms of square shape. I have tried them in different rooms within that house, I must say they dont entice that much even if i keep them few ft away from back walls. I tried many different placements, but they only perform at around 50% of what they used to be in my small room even though on stands. So with just changing of environment, a brilliant speaker can change into a average performer. Room is very important if someone takes his audio seriously.

 

[Analogous]

Here is my take, I used to have small bookshelf speakers few years back at my flat, they used to sound tremendous in my small cozy rectangular room. I used to enjoy them everytime music played on them and i considered them one of the greatest speakers. They were advertised by the manufacturer to especially sound good while close to back wall or kept on a bookshelf. Here is quote from manufacturer website:

"For optimum performance, DALI MENUET should be positioned in a bookshelf or mounted on the wall using an optional wall bracket."

My story said otherwise. I felt that the speakers sounded best when kept on stands and 3 ft forward from front wall and around 6 ft apart in my room. Infact they sounded crap to me if i tried to wall mount them or keep them too close to walls in that room.

Now same speakers on same stands are now moved to my home town, which is a traditional house with high ceilings and rooms of square shape. I have tried them in different rooms within that house, I must say they dont entice that much even if i keep them few ft away from back walls. I tried many different placements, but they only perform at around 50% of what they used to be in my small room even though on stands. So with just changing of environment, a brilliant speaker can change into a average performer. Room is very important if someone takes his audio seriously.

Second that!
@firearm I have fond memories of listening to your fabulous sounding system (Quad towers?) at your apartment. It may also be possible your ears are trained to this and find the smaller bookshelves wanting in their new and acosutically unfamiliar place?

 

[Analogous]

This thread is brilliantly titled "mind the gap"
Now the gap seems to be widening to include the whole room!

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Here is my take, I used to have small bookshelf speakers few years back at my flat, they used to sound tremendous in my small cozy rectangular room. I used to enjoy them everytime music played on them and i considered them one of the greatest speakers. They were advertised by the manufacturer to especially sound good while close to back wall or kept on a bookshelf. Here is quote from manufacturer website:

"For optimum performance, DALI MENUET should be positioned in a bookshelf or mounted on the wall using an optional wall bracket."

My story said otherwise. I felt that the speakers sounded best when kept on stands and 3 ft forward from front wall and around 6 ft apart in my room. Infact they sounded crap to me if i tried to wall mount them or keep them too close to walls in that room.

Now same speakers on same stands are now moved to my home town, which is a traditional house with high ceilings and rooms of square shape. I have tried them in different rooms within that house, I must say they dont entice that much even if i keep them few ft away from back walls. I tried many different placements, but they only perform at around 50% of what they used to be in my small room even though on stands. So with just changing of environment, a brilliant speaker can change into a average performer. Room is very important if someone takes his audio seriously.

@firearm12, thanks for sharing. The first half of your story tallies with my experience. About the bigger home town room, the Menuet are positioned as premium small speakers, meant for high sound quality in smaller spaces. Also square rooms are considered to be nightmare for speaker placement. Have you tried playing them with a sub?

 

[firearm12]

Second that!
@firearm I have fond memories of listening to your fabulous sounding system (Quad towers?) at your apartment. It may also be possible your ears are trained to this and find the smaller bookshelves wanting in their new and acosutically unfamiliar place?

Hmm before quads i used to have dalis in the same room and those were brilliant. Yes maybe its possible that i am used to a particular sound of the room here. But i tend to spend months in my hometown and cant say its acoustically unfamiliar. Its just that the speakers dont shine there because rooms are not shaped properly. If i take my small room with me there, they would certainly shine. Moral of the story is that room counts every bit thats what i feel. Its not that they sound horrible there but they dont sound like what they are worth for.

@firearm12, thanks for sharing. The first half of your story tallies with my experience. About the bigger home town room, the Menuet are positioned as premium small speakers, meant for high sound quality in smaller spaces. Also square rooms are considered to be nightmare for speaker placement. Have you tried playing them with a sub?

Yes i have a sub with them but its off most of the time. Thankfully i dont take too much trouble and effort of waking them up there ( understood deep inside that they wont sound that good in those rooms). What i wanted to say was that imo room seems more important that distance from back wall. If the room is not optimal, distance from back wall cannot help. Infact in my small room i liked them more when distance from back wall was more. In the room where they are currently present, i prefer them pushed back to the wall a bit.

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

I have been doing this crawl too - every few days. The challenge is my unreliable memory of the sound over time and trying to decide which I like better. My speakers are on a never ending journey (in spurts) within a small space it’s fun once I reconciled myself there are many good spots to be discovered. So much to do, so little time...

I have paid a huge price to get this right. The huge price is having to listen to the same track again and again dozens of times. I never ever want to listen to Dire Straits "Ride across the river" again in my life.

 

[oldmonk]

Ever wondered what would be the effect of using absorbers behind the speakers to the distance from the front wall that the OP initially stated ?

Will an absorber behind the front speaker allow one to position the speakers closer to the front wall than a bare wall ?

What's your take ?

Dire Straits "Ride across the river" again in my life.

Why Worry ?

)

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Ever wondered what would be the effect of using absorbers behind the speakers to the distance from the front wall that the OP initially stated ?

Will an absorber behind the front speaker allow one to position the speakers closer to the front wall than a bare wall ?

What's your take ?

Absorber reduces reflection. So it’s like adding more space between the speaker and the wall (free space is also an absorber). Consequently lesser distance would be required IMO. But would absorbers change the sound too? Guess people have different views on that.

And yeah, the OP has a name and feels nice when he is referred by the same.

@firearm12, I am wondering if toeing out the speakers could help in the squarish rooms at your home town. That might simulate a longer rectangular room. Have you tried it?

 

[oldmonk]

But would absorbers change the sound too?

No..room treatment is used in all studios.

Guess people have different views on that.

One would not know unless one tries..

But diffusers are also used to treat the room.

Conventional thinking says the room needs measurement and a qualified audio engineer to boot but me thinks one must try it out..

If we stick to bare walls only then with your city's real estate prices assuming 1 meter or 2 metre into the room is like the Arabian story of the camel asking for some room in the tent as it is too cold outside...then we know what happens...

 

[firearm12]

@firearm12, I am wondering if toeing out the speakers could help in the squarish rooms at your home town. That might simulate a longer rectangular room. Have you tried it?

I did not try toeing out but i keep them dead straight. I will try toeing out next time i get chance.

Ever wondered what would be the effect of using absorbers behind the speakers to the distance from the front wall that the OP initially stated ?

Will an absorber behind the front speaker allow one to position the speakers closer to the front wall than a bare wall ?

What's your take ?

Absorption panels behind speakers affect the sound. It will reduce fuzziness in image by taming back wall reflections. Imo things like absorption panels are better kept as far as possible from speakers. Maybe this is due to imperfect absorption of frequencies and also that absorption panels deaden the sound if too much is applied, they should be used carefully. Diffusion panels are better than absorption panels for behind the speaker tuning, but as always ymmv. Even if someone uses panels, he will benefit from having speakers away from them.

 

[spirovious]

There’s nothing surprising in this. As you pull out the speakers,

Very true and is been practiced by many FMs here. Muddiness in Bass or mids reduces considerably if speaker gets breathing space. I remember, one of the whathifi shows had room issue one year and to achieve a good sound, some of the speakers were pulled in the middle of the room.In short wall distance from speakers affects sound quality and one has to set it to the best position.

 

[oldmonk]

Allows bass to breathe
Cleaning up the bass

But what does this actually mean in terms of sound propagation?

It is essential to understand how sound propagates and what happens at various frequencies..

Why does bass get cleaned up when we use room treatment like absorbers...

Why too much absorption dead end the sound?

What happens at the sound propagation level ?

What is compression and rarefaction ?

A nice basic video here..

It's very easy to move speakers forward backward sideways etc...but to truly get the best out of your system..it is essential to understand sound and experiment with your room and with some treatment.

It's not enough to simply move the speakers.

 

[prem]

I have had several room treatments at home over the last 3 decades. From Real Traps to Rives Audio to Franck Tchang Resonators.

Real Trap solutions and Rives Audio solutions had been done with scientific measurements.

Franck Tchang stuff has been done with his guidance. His resonators work on the principle of how sound moves through air. It’s best to have uniform density of air to enable this. So his resonators work to achieve this.

After trying all of above, I realised I prefer no room treatment and accurate placement of speakers solves pretty much most of the issues. Also I find sound most natural with no room treatment. As always YMMV

And if you have to do room treatment, do spot treatment rather than the whole room treatment. Don’t randomly put bass traps at the corners. It does more harm than good.

 

[oldmonk]

Problem is people blindy follow "experts" without going through the process.

Your point on spot treatment is a good one. The word ..spot...is spot on

)

Just because 1 or 2 forum gurus say this is what

I get
I did
My experience

This I, Me, Mine syndrome takes the average Joe nowhere..

To top it all we add ..YMMV..

YOUR mileage... )

So people must get off their haunches and try for themselves in Their rooms

 

[himadri]

In my 12×14 feet room which I had for dedicated audio for around 18 years or so , the best placement along the short wall was the Cardas golden ratio. Of course this necessitated pulling the speaker's well into the room , but surprisingly I got very good results when sitting flush against the back wall ( within 1.5 feet).
Recently I had to shift to the drawing room since my father has moved in with me and occupied the earlier room, so it is all a fresh beginning, this time along the long wall.At present it seems the 1/3,1/5 rule is OK.