Mono Blocks vs 2 Channel Power Amp

[Vivek Batra]

Hi vivek.. saw your sale post. You indeed seem committed to getting a good sounding system. Unfortunately Iam presently out of India. I should be back by mid July I guess. If you haven't decided by then and also if you couldn't find too many systems to listen to in chandigarh, then i would gladly invite you to book your flights to hyderabad for a weekend. We have a friendly gang with loads of great kit...and hyderabad has great food too..So what's not to like

That's so nice of you. thanks

 

[superczar]

Maybe its just me but I find the difference that a speaker change can make to be orders of magnitude greater than what an amp change will do.
I have struggled to find a major difference between the sound from a classic dual mono integrated amp (pm17) , a sr6010 (guess should be similar to yours) and (oh the horror!) tpa3116 /tpa7498 class D boards for the same set of speakers- as long as you keep the spl level similar (easily measurable on a phone)
Yet a speaker swap for any of these amps has yielded significant differences.Could it be that you don’t like the sound from your Klipsch speakers ?

 

[Vivek Batra]

Maybe its just me but I find the difference that a speaker change can make to be orders of magnitude greater than what an amp change will do.
I have struggled to find a major difference between the sound from a classic dual mono integrated amp (pm17) , a sr6010 (guess should be similar to yours) and (oh the horror!) tpa3116 /tpa7498 class D boards for the same set of speakers- as long as you keep the spl level similar (easily measurable on a phone)
Yet a speaker swap for any of these amps has yielded significant differences.Could it be that you don’t like the sound from your Klipsch speakers ?

Could be
The most important thing I miss is the mid range. Tweeters are too bright and they aupress the mid-range or the other way around the mid range is not very well separated.

 

[Vivek Batra]

I am not sure what kind of access you have to brands not available on in india as well as what your budget is. I guess you are using a digital source.

If limited to indian and you have a budget constraint and tubes , you should speak to viren bakshi in the forum and see what can fit you. they would be the most VFM for you on tubes.

I love Sugden products , for Solid state Integrated amps thats a great option as their Class A design is very good. Rega Amps would also I suspect be a very good match. So would Quad

I am sure there would be a lot of other brands FMs can suggest

Thanks Arj. I will check all those.

 

[Vivek Batra]

I recommend magnepan speakers. I have pretty much the same choice in music and mostly use YouTube or streaming services as source. Cannot be happier. Auditioning might be a problem though.

Ain't those electrostatics?

 

[Vivek Batra]

Hi vivek.. saw your sale post. You indeed seem committed to getting a good sounding system. Unfortunately Iam presently out of India. I should be back by mid July I guess. If you haven't decided by then and also if you couldn't find too many systems to listen to in chandigarh, then i would gladly invite you to book your flights to hyderabad for a weekend. We have a friendly gang with loads of great kit...and hyderabad has great food too..So what's not to like

What kinda system you have. I will try to find something similar near by. Indeed it's land of biryanis and heaven for non veggies.

 

[bornfi]

Hi FMs

I am quite new to this domain of hi end gear but not new to music. I have Denon 4500H to drive my Klipsch RP- 8000F and I am quite not happy as this was not the intention (Intention was a stereo integrated amp but somehow a wrong decision.). So thinking of doing away with AVR and going for separates. I have been reading around and watching some youtube videos on mono block amps and power amps. Will it really makes a difference by going mono vs 2 channel power amp? 200 wpc mono vs 400 wpc stereo power amp?

One thing that is not in my control is to find a dealer that could arrange a demo to compare this scenario. I am helpless on this until and unless I flew out of my city to find a dealer.

I am sure I will take away a good amount of knowledge from this forum and will be able to spend wisely.

Well, that is a dangerous attempt selling everything hoping that whatever new you will bring in will satiate your hunger. With my experience and in my opinion, I would recommend first getting a good DA converter and run your receiver in pure stereo mode. If you can get a DAC with good volume control, you can run your Denon with near-max volume and make DAC's volume as master.

I am suggesting this because over the years I have realized that while the digital era increased the availability of content but nobody talked about how rendering digital content is so complex. Read about DAC patiently as much as you can and see if you can get one to try.

Not sure how much you are familiar with digital audio world but do some reading on Dante - start reading about it and if too complicate, you may want to keep it aside for time being. I brought this because despite getting a good DAC, I wasn't yet satisfied and somehow found that it is very critical to transport digital data from source to target (DAC) and then found about Dante which is from an Australian company Audinate. I haven't felt a need to try something else since I introduced Dante connectivity in my system. First not will tell give you a taste of how this would have sound in an studio. In fact I would go to an extent telling you that instead of getting DAC first, try this on Denon since it Denon has digital input.

Too much of writing/info for you to digest or spoil your weekend .....yes this hobby is like that, the more you get into this, more interesting it becomes. Please feel free to ask any question that you may have.

 

[Vivek Batra]

Well, that is a dangerous attempt selling everything hoping that whatever new you will bring in will satiate your hunger. With my experience and in my opinion, I would recommend first getting a good DA converter and run your receiver in pure stereo mode. If you can get a DAC with good volume control, you can run your Denon with near-max volume and make DAC's volume as master.

I am suggesting this because over the years I have realized that while the digital era increased the availability of content but nobody talked about how rendering digital content is so complex. Read about DAC patiently as much as you can and see if you can get one to try.

Not sure how much you are familiar with digital audio world but do some reading on Dante - start reading about it and if too complicate, you may want to keep it aside for time being. I brought this because despite getting a good DAC, I wasn't yet satisfied and somehow found that it is very critical to transport digital data from source to target (DAC) and then found about Dante which is from an Australian company Audinate. I haven't felt a need to try something else since I introduced Dante connectivity in my system. First not will tell give you a taste of how this would have sound in an studio. In fact I would go to an extent telling you that instead of getting DAC first, try this on Denon since it Denon has digital input.

Too much of writing/info for you to digest or spoil your weekend .....yes this hobby is like that, the more you get into this, more interesting it becomes. Please feel free to ask any question that you may have.

Your advice is of too much value to me buddy. I know I am getting impatient here mind you I have lost my sleep as well

 

[Vivek Batra]

Well, that is a dangerous attempt selling everything hoping that whatever new you will bring in will satiate your hunger. With my experience and in my opinion, I would recommend first getting a good DA converter and run your receiver in pure stereo mode. If you can get a DAC with good volume control, you can run your Denon with near-max volume and make DAC's volume as master.

I am suggesting this because over the years I have realized that while the digital era increased the availability of content but nobody talked about how rendering digital content is so complex. Read about DAC patiently as much as you can and see if you can get one to try.

Not sure how much you are familiar with digital audio world but do some reading on Dante - start reading about it and if too complicate, you may want to keep it aside for time being. I brought this because despite getting a good DAC, I wasn't yet satisfied and somehow found that it is very critical to transport digital data from source to target (DAC) and then found about Dante which is from an Australian company Audinate. I haven't felt a need to try something else since I introduced Dante connectivity in my system. First not will tell give you a taste of how this would have sound in an studio. In fact I would go to an extent telling you that instead of getting DAC first, try this on Denon since it Denon has digital input.

Too much of writing/info for you to digest or spoil your weekend .....yes this hobby is like that, the more you get into this, more interesting it becomes. Please feel free to ask any question that you may have.

Just one question, I .not lagging behind in good clean sufficient power for my speakers?

 

[arj]

I hope you do not lose much on your sale...the only reason i recommended a change of speakers is , from my experience, what you are looking for would not be met by the speaker as Klipsch has a boogie factor but after 30 min can be very fatiguing for only 2 channel especially with indian female vocals.
I hope you do read on on the right way to audition..lots of material available but the key things I have followed and try to follow now ( although my auditioning days are really over)

1. Carry music you love and which moves you even if it is bad recording ( I like clapton-my fathers eyes, Bombay theme, Keith Jarret -Koln concert, Livingston Tyler and quite a few Lata/Asha/Kishore and Rafi songs). Spend more than 30 mins listening as mostly the sound which makes an impact in the first 30mins, gets fatiguing later. if it does not move you then its not for you despite how exciting the bass would be and how clear the treble is.

2. The Speaker defines the sound.. but more than the speaker its the 1. Speaker +Room synergy followed by the 2. Speaker + amp Synergy which defines the sound. Source does not need any synergy ( except for phono preamps) and you must get the best source you can afford.

3. The Speaker + Room synergy is where more than 50% of your sound quality lies ,( depending on the quality of your speakers) almost everyone gets it wrong and hence go on to unnecessary upgrade cycles. I myself am struggling with it so it comes with experience and not easy to get right. Hence do your research before before auditioning a speaker as to if it is for you . Most dealers will help you with the decision around if it will fit into your room. Read all reviews but dont take them for gospel as a lot of details are written between the lines and it takes time to figure that out so you will need to trust your own ears and the ears of whom you trust !

Now some comments since its a sunday morning and I've had a nice breakfast and am sipping a tea

4. In the end, the music you hear in your home is going to sound every different from the music you hear in the audition..What you are looking for is the potential of the equipment . So go back to no 3 above !

5. You cannot balance warm/bright sounds by combining ie a bright source with a warm amp does not make anything neutral..it only makes it more distorted. Best is to fix the source as most neutral as any distortion when it goes down the chain gets more and more distorted hence you need that signal at the best. Bornfi's suggestion around dacs are great, the Schiit Dacs are also very very good for their money and so is Metrum especially as it is available at a very reasonable price. Siva of Acoustic Portrait also has an excellent Dac . Hence more important to choose the Amp and speaker defines the sound you want to hear and can live with. (

5. Get the most affordable cables to start with ..suggest they should be multi stranded and pure copper.. While there are nos like 5%-10 of price etc tossed around, cables do make a difference but need to be used only once you have everything else setup and optimised as else you are not hearing the true sound of the component. this is your tweak after room setup and power.

6. Dont ignore power ! start of with the power cables given or recommended by the equipment you buy and make sure you use Brass connectors to start off for power cords and keep the power cables away from the signal cables. if they do need to be together make sure they cross each other perpendicular rather than running parallel. if you have some control on the power circuit one of the best upgrades you can do is a dedicated line for your audio and a good ground !



tea is over and so is my long post

 

[Vivek Batra]

I hope you do not lose much on your sale...the only reason i recommended a change of speakers is , from my experience, what you are looking for would not be met by the speaker as Klipsch has a boogie factor but after 30 min can be very fatiguing for only 2 channel especially with indian female vocals.
I hope you do read on on the right way to audition..lots of material available but the key things I have followed and try to follow now ( although my auditioning days are really over)

1. Carry music you love and which moves you even if it is bad recording ( I like clapton-my fathers eyes, Bombay theme, Keith Jarret -Koln concert, Livingston Tyler and quite a few lata/Asha/Kishore and Rafi songs). Spend more than 30 mins listening as mostly the sound which makes an impact in the first 30mins, gets fatiguing later. if it does not move you then its not for you despite how exciting the bass would be and how clear the treble is.

2. The Speaker defines the sound.. but more than the speaker its the 1. Speaker +Room synergy followed by the 2. Speaker + amp Synergy which defines the sound. Source does not need any synergy ( except for phono preamps) and you must get the best source you can afford.

3. The Speaker + Room synergy is where more than 50% of your sound quality lies ,( depending on the quality of your speakers) almost everyone gets it wrong and hence go on to unnecessary upgrade cycles. I myself am struggling with it so it comes with experience and not easy to get right. Hence do your research before before auditioning a speaker as to if it is for you . Most dealers will help you with the decision around if it will fit into your room.

Now some comments since its a sunday morning and I've had a nice breakfast and tea

4. In the end, the Music you hear in your home is going to sound every different from the music you hear in the audition..What you are looking for is the potential of the equipment . So go back to no 3 above !

5. You cannot balance Warm/Bright sounds by combining ie a Bright source with a Warm amp does not make anything neutral..it only makes it more distorted. Best is to fix the Source as most neutral as any distortion when it goes down the chain gets more and more distorted hence you need that signal at the best. Bornfi's suggestion around dacs are great, the Schiit Dacs are also very very good for their money and so is Metrum especially as it is available at a very reasonable price. Siva of Acoustic Portrait also has an excellent Dac . Hence more important Amp and speaker defines the sound you want to hear and can live with

5. Get the most affordable cables to start with ..suggest they should be multi stranded and pure copper.. While there are nos like 5%-10 of price etc tossed around, cables do make a difference but need to be used only once you have everything else setup and optimised as else you are not hearing the true sound of the component. this is your tweak after room setup and power.

6. Dont ignore power ! start of with the power cables given or recommended by the equipment you buy and make sure you use Brass connectors to start off for power cords and keep the power cables away from the signal cables. if they do need to be together make sure they cross each other perpendicular rather than running parallel. if you have some control on the power circuit one of the best upgrades you can do is a dedicated line for your audio and a good ground !


tea is over and so is my long post

Thanks again for the detailed info.
I will be replying to each of your comment after having my tea.

 

[Ashenden]

Your advice is of too much value to me buddy. I know I am getting impatient here mind you I have lost my sleep as well

To add to your woes , in case you visit Mumbai, do listen to FM @Hari Iyer TL speakers, his own creation. The best non fatigue inducing speakers, I have ever heard. Unfortunately I had already bought my speakers and since I never upgrade [only replace if damaged] I couldn't. But that has been a kind of reference for me to how neutral, speakers should sound.

 

[tuff]

Ain't those electrostatics?

Nope. They are planar. Not as clinical, but highly musical. Needs a beefy amp depending on the model, but boy they can sing. FM @sound_cycle has got the newer 1.7i running on Vidar mono-blocks with whom you can check how they perform.

 

[jai1611]

There is a pair of Harbeth SHL5 speakers listed in the sale section from a Chandigarh FM. If possible, do try and listen to them (preferably with your amp/AVR). They have a very different presentation from the Klipsch and would give you an idea if your current issues stem from the speakers

 

[Vivek Batra]

Nope. They are planar. Not as clinical, but highly musical. Needs a beefy amp depending on the model, but boy they can sing. FM @sound_cycle has got the newer 1.7i running on Vidar mono-blocks with whom you can check how they perform.

Any idea about the magnapen cost for the pair? Schiit vidar?

 

[tuff]

PM Soundcycle. He is up to date on the 1.7 and Schitt Vidar pricing. Or call Audio vision. They are authorized dealers.

 

[Vivek Batra]

There is a pair of Harbeth SHL5 speakers listed in the sale section from a Chandigarh FM. If possible, do try and listen to them (preferably with your amp/AVR). They have a very different presentation from the Klipsch and would give you an idea if your current issues stem from the speakers

I would have definitely gone to listen them but they are available in Bangalore.

 

[newlash09]

Maybe its just me but I find the difference that a speaker change can make to be orders of magnitude greater than what an amp change will do.
I have struggled to find a major difference between the sound from a classic dual mono integrated amp (pm17) , a sr6010 (guess should be similar to yours) and (oh the horror!) tpa3116 /tpa7498 class D boards for the same set of speakers- as long as you keep the spl level similar (easily measurable on a phone)
Yet a speaker swap for any of these amps has yielded significant differences.Could it be that you don’t like the sound from your Klipsch speakers ?

I fully agree with superczar here. The speakers make the biggest change in any system. I have probably 5 different types of amplification, from tubes to pure class A, to class AB and class D too. And they all don't sound too indifferent to each other. Though they have their own inherent strengths, they don't change the sound completely like a change of speakers does.

 

[Vivek Batra]

I fully agree with superczar here. The speakers make the biggest change in any system. I have probably 5 different types of amplification, from tubes to pure class A, to class AB and class D too. And they all don't sound too indifferent to each other. Though they have their own inherent strengths, they don't change the sound completely like a change of speakers does.

Totally confused now. Don't know what to try now. Same amp different speakers or same speakers and stereo amps with dacs etc. Too difficult

 

[newlash09]

Just one question, I .not lagging behind in good clean sufficient power for my speakers?

Ideally power treatment, cables, vibration control and room treatment are best reserved for the end, once you have a sound you like, they will enhance it further increasing your musical enjoyment. So please don't get distracted with spending money on them at this stage. I would suggest spending the max you can on the best speakers you like. Next on the best amplification that suits your speakers.

Please remember that the speaker have to suit your musical taste and your room.

Next amplification should suit those speakers.

Dac and source components have to suit your taste in musical presentation..

This is the proper hierarchy to be followed for a happy system