Music PC v/s entry level DACs

[panditji]

Just wanted to know if anybody is using a dedicated music PC with a high quality soundcard such as Asus Essence STX and how does it compare with using your existing laptop with an entry level DAC like a Schiit Bifrost/Audioquest Dragonfly or comparable DACs around.....

How much of a difference in sound is there if you are able to make a dedicated music PC with a quiet power supply with a soundcard like ASUS Essence STX (assuming the cost comes to approx. 30,000) vis a vis buying an external DAC for 25000 and using your laptop as well as buying an external hard disk...

 

[Santy]

If you already have a laptop it does not make much sense to build another PC unless you
- want another PC at home
- need to play games which needed better GPU
- need 3D support for movies (assuming laptop dosen't have)
- want SPDIF support
- want to explore the endless possibilities of a desktop PC

If its dedicated to music only, then it makes no sense at all. Also, I think STX costs about 15k so managing all other components (including display?) seems inappropriate for me. PSU needs to be of good quality and that comes at a significant cost.

STX can give a tough fight to many external DACs costing upto 20k or more. Not sure of the models you mentioned here though. Again it all depends on your other components. If you are using a DAC which is already outclassing the rest of the chain, you will not find any significant difference by replacing it with a a better one. If I were you, I would invest the money I have for building the PC on a good external DAC. Laptop is a fairly acceptable transport for USB DACs costing upto say 50k (IMHO).

 

[thevortex]

I do have a dedicated PC which, although is setup for both Movies and Music, sees the greatest action in Music . The sound card I use is Xonar D2X - one step below the Essence in the price pecking order. I do not have any idea as to how it compares in terms of analog sound quality output with the Essence.

The setup is also optimized for Movie Playback with MPC-HC (Media Player Classic - Home Cinema Edition) and Daum PotPlayer.

For Music, I tend to use PurePlayer (WASAPI) or uLilith with a few plugins. Digital out from the sound card goes to a Behringer DEQ2496 unit which has calibrated settings for Room Correction along with my preferred music signature and from there to a pair of Equator Audio D5 speakers using balanced XLR interconnects. In fact all connections are XLR except for the one where RCA to XLR is used for the output from the PC sound card.

My previous box had a completely Music optimized build compared to this one. There I had used one of the new AMD APU's (on board graphic processor supporting 1080P) and a 80 Plus certified Antec PSU. It was a very low noise machine with 2 GB of RAM. The current one has a dedicated GPU unit - an nVidia display card capable of playing demanding games. So, it is not entirely noise free. But it is a little bit more flexible in terms of usage.

Fidelizer does not seem to produce a great benefit in my setup. But I do tend to stop services which are not relevant to Multimedia before I indulge in a session of listening or viewing.

I have compared this setup (both the previous AMD one and the current one) with the vDAC and the Cambridge Audio DacMagic. In both cases, the PC setup was easily the one I preferred (without getting into subjective discussions of which is better). The best part of this setup is that, on the fly, I can resort to using any O/S, interface, player, plugin setup for various effects that I might be in the mood for or resampling algorigthms. Such a thing is unheard of in plain DAC setups.

Of course you pay for this flexibility in terms of complexity. But once you do the hard yards for setup, the benefit achieved is extremely satisfactory, personally speaking.

 

[thevortex]

Laptop is a fairly acceptable transport for USB DACs costing upto say 50k (IMHO).

Santy - not sure how you arrive at those numbers. I can think of some really nice DACs for that amount. Both DIY kits and readymade ones.

The biggest argument against laptops is one of EMI and the lack of quality PSU's. Although there are of course solutions to that just like anything else.

A dedicated Music PC can be built at around 25K (sans the display unit).

 

[thevortex]

Panditji - missed the last part of your question. I would definitely not recommend using external disks for music playback. Most of the optimizing routines on several of the audiophile player websites recommend usage of SSD or better yet, playing the files right off your RAM (I know there is disagreement as to whether this makes a difference). Either way your music files need to be local.

End of the day, if the toss up is against using a DAC to take output from your laptop vs a separate Music PC with a sound card, I would go with the PC. However a lot depends on the DAC you are evaluating as well. There are some very juicy DIY kit choices around the number you mention. Doede Douma for example...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I would definitely not recommend using external disks for music playback.

This is especially true if you use a USB DAC. Just think how busy that USB Bus is going to be! This business of USB traffic is one reason that audio performance on one USB port can be entirely different from that on another.

On the other hand, there are lots of things that are not ideal, or ways of doing things that can be bettered in theory. Bottom line is whether it works or not. If you can play music from your external drive --- play it! Even if it gives problems at first (I don't mean subtle problems, I mean dropouts, stuttering, disasterous problems!) then some juggling of ports just might help. But at least put your favourites on the internal disk

 

[Santy]

Santy - not sure how you arrive at those numbers. I can think of some really nice DACs for that amount. Both DIY kits and readymade ones.

The biggest argument against laptops is one of EMI and the lack of quality PSU's. Although there are of course solutions to that just like anything else.

A dedicated Music PC can be built at around 25K (sans the display unit).

Vortex, I agree that laptop is not the best transport but your post has confused me a bit. . Yes, there are really some good DACs in that price point but how it proves that laptop is a bad transport for them, is not clear to me . Aren't entry level and lower mid range USB DACs primarily meant for connecting to laptop/ PC sources?

BTW, what is your number; I mean laptop is OK as transport for DACs costing upto....?

A dedicated music PC with a sound card like STX (refer OP's post) and quality PSU built in 25k appears quite stretched to me. PC also suffers from EMI I guess?

Finally I guess the topic is not about buying a new laptop or building a desktop for music playback, its about the need for building 'another' PC, so its all additional cost. According to me, a laptop (existing) + 40k DAC is a better choice than a 25K PC+ 15K sound card.

In fact all connections are XLR except for the one where RCA to XLR is used for the output from the PC sound card.

This way you are not enjoying the benefits of balanced audio, its as good as XLR is not used.

I have compared this setup (both the previous AMD one and the current one) with the vDAC and the Cambridge Audio DacMagic.

I respect your view but what was the transport for vDAC /DacMagic in this experiment?

Such a thing is unheard of in plain DAC setups.

plain DAC setups means... like...?

 

[thevortex]

Santy - the point I was making was with respect to the comparison between adding a DAC to a laptop and using an external disk for music vs setting up a dedicated Music PC.

I only explained the advantages of setting up the latter vis a vis my experiences. YMMV

25K for a dedicated Music PC is immensely doable. Am saying that because I have done it for myself

As for the DAC comparison the transport was always the same - my PC

As for it being as good not using balanced (RCA to XLR) - well, it cannot be helped. The ASUS soundcard is consumer oriented not pro-oriented. You win some, you lose some . There are other things which irk me about ASUS too but that is not relevant in this thread...

 

[Santy]

Asynchronus DACs get the digital data at the rate of its 'own' clock. So it indirectly means that it gets the data stream with enough buffer and samples the audio at its clock frequency. That means that as long as music is playing (even if data is from USB drive), its doing the job correctly, so USB BUS traffic shouldn't be an issue, IMHO. Of course when there is audio drop outs it clearly means there's is a problem with the load on PC.

Also, whether we read from SSD or HDD, the music always plays from RAM. For that matter, whatever is displayed also comes from RAM (VRAM/GPU) not from HDD.

 

[panditji]

Thanks a lot for all the advice Santy and Vortex.....

I am asking for advice on whether to buy a decent DAC upto 30,000 rupees to use with an existing laptop v/s building a PC with a very good soundcard for the same amount.....

Almost all the USB DACs are asynchronus and therefore when used with an existing laptop should take care of the jitter and the transfer of data.......

Now Fidelizer made a huge difference to my laptop sound when I connected it to my amp via a regular cheap rca cable and I am evaluating whether to buy a decent DAC to use with my current setup or build a PC music server.....

Want to know how much of a difference is there in the sound for either of the setups...

 

[hydra]

I have tried these in my setup:

1) HP dm1 (portable) > JRMC > USB > Rega DAC
2) Music PC with Xonar STX > JRMC > Coaxial Digital > Rega DAC

I do feel a discernible difference but not a substantial difference, with the second combination sounding better. The portable and Music PC are connected to the DAC via different interfaces (USB vs. Digital Coaxial).

But it should be noted that the difference here is quite similar to the difference I feel when I've tried my Music PC and DAC with a USB interface and digital coaxial interface.

Also, my DAC (Rega) does not have an Async USB Interface, though they claim that their implementation is equally good.

Though I've not directly made such a comparison, I'd say that the Portable > USB > DAC sounds better than the Music PC > Soundcard combination. I was using the Music PC > Xonar STX combination (i.e. analog outs of the STX) before I moved on to the Rega DAC. It was a HUGE step up.

Panditji, IMHO, you should spend all of your budget on a good DAC, and continue using the laptop, if you will be using the internal HDD of the laptop to store music. BUT, if you will be using an external HDD and a USB DAC, then I do think there will be a degradation in the quality of sound.

If you do need an external storage solution, maybe you can think of getting one of those external HDDs that has an ethernet interface, and stream music to the laptop from the HDD over the laptop's ethernet interface? I think there are also routers available with USB inputs, which can use conventional HDDs in the same way.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

None of these comparisons ever compare apples with apples. Not even apples with custard apples!

Panditji, there is no answer to your question. On reason is that hifi is not (despite appearances) sold by the pound, and it is just not going to work comparing hypothetical, non-specific equipment suggestions just by mentioning a price tag or budget. If I were you, I'd proceed on an upgrade path. I'd make step number one --- adding a reasonable-priced DAC to your laptop. The ODAC is well liked by many members here, and is most unlikely to be a bad buy. You'll have lots of change out of 30,000. Why not look at the ODAC+headphone amp combination, or something like that, if the cash is burning a hole in your pocket. Or just save it up for the next step.

I suspect that an ODAC wouldn't stay in our for-sale-by-owner forum very long. If it does not suit, you could recover most of your money fairly easily.

 

[magma]

panditji

there are a couple dacs that are largely much better than the ASUS soundcard
the peter daniel, AUDIO GD, Vdac are better

i would go with an external DAC since my experince has proven so
i currently use a dedicated music PC , digital out is taken from the ESI into a buffalo 3 DAC

if you are using a laptop there is nothing better than using the M2tech hiface usb to SPDIF
and then feeding the SPDIF into a dac

older dacs ( 5plus yr olf models ) with only SPDIF can be had in a song on audiogon
these old dacs as far better than the cambridges and vdacs or whatever new 20k modern dacs you can buy new today

 

[sidvee]

older dacs ( 5plus yr olf models ) with only SPDIF can be had in a song on audiogon
these old dacs as far better than the cambridges and vdacs or whatever new 20k modern dacs you can buy new today

Very true,
Since I sold my Ayon cd2s and am waiting for my Ayon skylla, I am using a Musical Fidelity Xdac v3+PSU (both about $1500 when new, 6yrs. ago now available on the gon at $500-$600) in the interim. Wow! I used to love this DAC but it was put aside when I had other DAC's in my system for the past 4 years. This one comes close to the sound of the Internal DAC of the Ayon cd2s (I would say at-least 80%) at a fraction of the price (one has to figure out inflation I suppose to arrive at exact values) and I hold the Ayon DAC in very high esteem. IMO it will easily beat any current $1500-$2000 DAC - albeit without a USB input, but I strongly believe now that one is going to get superior sound quality from a external usb to coax converter when using a comp.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[thevortex]

Asynchronus DACs get the digital data at the rate of its 'own' clock. So it indirectly means that it gets the data stream with enough buffer and samples the audio at its clock frequency. That means that as long as music is playing (even if data is from USB drive), its doing the job correctly, so USB BUS traffic shouldn't be an issue, IMHO. Of course when there is audio drop outs it clearly means there's is a problem with the load on PC.

Also, whether we read from SSD or HDD, the music always plays from RAM. For that matter, whatever is displayed also comes from RAM (VRAM/GPU) not from HDD.

Ah...here we are getting into slightly deeper waters. The DACs can get at only what Windows will let them get. While ASIO or WASAPI can get the signal through, there is no escaping the default Windows clock. That is where Reclock comes in and why I rate pkshan's foobar mod very highly.

There has been no conclusive test which proves that playing from RAM gives better results than playing from a physical media but I guess the consensus is - it cannot hurt

 

[thevortex]

panditji

there are a couple dacs that are largely much better than the ASUS soundcard
the peter daniel, AUDIO GD, Vdac are better

i would go with an external DAC since my experince has proven so
i currently use a dedicated music PC , digital out is taken from the ESI into a buffalo 3 DAC

if you are using a laptop there is nothing better than using the M2tech hiface usb to SPDIF
and then feeding the SPDIF into a dac

older dacs ( 5plus yr olf models ) with only SPDIF can be had in a song on audiogon
these old dacs as far better than the cambridges and vdacs or whatever new 20k modern dacs you can buy new today

Good thoughts. I would suggest the Douma layer DACs as well. Extreme value for money.

Of course there are loads of mods for the M2tech hiface to bring it up several notches. And it is popular too...

 

[thevortex]

Thanks a lot for all the advice Santy and Vortex.....

I am asking for advice on whether to buy a decent DAC upto 30,000 rupees to use with an existing laptop v/s building a PC with a very good soundcard for the same amount.....

Almost all the USB DACs are asynchronus and therefore when used with an existing laptop should take care of the jitter and the transfer of data.......

Now Fidelizer made a huge difference to my laptop sound when I connected it to my amp via a regular cheap rca cable and I am evaluating whether to buy a decent DAC to use with my current setup or build a PC music server.....

Want to know how much of a difference is there in the sound for either of the setups...

There are advantages either way, I guess. Like I said, if you are a believer in good power affecting music reproduction, the PC Setup wins. If you do not place faith in that, then I guess the Laptop-DAC chain will do the job.

The cost, in itself, is not a big issue here. Your budget can swing it either way.

Here is something to think about. The DAC is reusable in many ways - you could link it with your CD Player or any other source later on.

The PC too could be repurposed - even outside Audio..but well, you know how it goes.

 

[panditji]

Thanks everyone for your inputs....I can feel the discussion going in the favour of buying a good external DAC and that seems to decide it for me....
The hard disk issue can always be taken care of by transferring the favourite files to the laptop.....
So now I have to decide on the DAC and keep busy for the next 3 months.....anyone compared the Schiit Bifrost, Wyred 4 Sound uDac, Halide HD DAC, Micromega MyDAC etc??? Any comparisons done by the members between either of the above?

 

[vsg]

Would like to add for most DAC's Rega and alike , USB implementation is poor which explains why some pc soundcard may sound better than reputed outboard dac using USB connection. You would notice significant difference using SPDIF convertor like Music Fidelity VLink192. I own the Halide DAC HD since I didn't want to spend extra on converters n expensive cable all of which make a difference. It's connected directly from the Laptop to the amplifier. If you are really looking for that analog sound along with convenience think it would be hard to beat this by other similar priced DAC's.

 

[Maxprocrj]

Would like to add for most DAC's Rega and alike , USB implementation is poor which explains why some pc soundcard may sound better than reputed outboard dac using USB connection. You would notice significant difference using SPDIF convertor like Music Fidelity VLink192. I own the Halide DAC HD since I didn't want to spend extra on converters n expensive cable all of which make a difference. It's connected directly from the Laptop to the amplifier. If you are really looking for that analog sound along with convenience think it would be hard to beat this by other similar priced DAC's.

Hi vsg

From where you have bought Halide DAC? Any other suggestions for DACs within 25k for Laptop...kindly mention from where to get them!! if possible please PM me.

Thanks in advance