NAD vs Yamaha vs Harman Kardon vs ???

[navin advani]

For our living room system I am building a pair of DIY (SEAS Excel) towers for the front, a matching W MT W center, 4 rear (SEAS Prestige) on wall speakers, and 2 subwoofers: a TC Sounds LMS-R 15" (with it's own 500W BASH plate amplifier) in the front and a Seas L26ROY 10" subwoofer (with it's own 300W plate amplifier) in the rear of the room.

Initally I considered using a AV Receiver and then use a 5 channel amplifer to drive the front and center channels (2 channels of the amp for each front speaker). My first choice was the Marantz SR7005 AV Receiver and MM7055 power amplifier but failure of 2 SR7005 of a friend made be think twice.

The same friend however suggested that instead of a AV Receiver and Power amp, I should use an Integrated Stereo Amplifier and AV Receiver. The Logic being that all audio sources (CD player, Music Player etc..) can then be connected to the Integrated Stereo Amplifier (bypassing all the unnecessary processing) and sent to the front speakers. All video sources (Set top box, PS3, DVD player, etc) would be connected to the AV Receiver and the AV Receiver's front "pre-out" would be sent to the "main-in/power-in" of the Integrated Stereo Amplifier. Hence the power amp of the Integrated Stereo Amplifier would then drive the front speakers and the AV Receiver would drive the center and rear speakers only.

Does this line of thinking make sense?

If it does make more sense to use a Stereo Integrated amplifier along with the AV Receiver, I was thinking along the lines of using a combination of the Yamaha A-S2000 (Stereo Integrated Amplifer) and the Yamaha Aventage RX-A1010 (AV Receiver) OR alternately the NAD C375BEE (Stereo Integrated Amplifier) and the NAD T748 (AV Receiver) the dark horse being the Harman Kardon HK990 (Stereo Integrated Amplifer) and AVR365 (AV Receiver) combo.

The Yamaha is rated at 90W/ch which the Harman and NAD are rated at 150W/ch (the NAD375 has 2 advantages: 3db more 'dynamic' power and more importantly an optional 24/96 DAC).

C 375BEE Integrated Amplifier - NAD Electronics
MDC DAC - NAD Electronics
A-S2000 - Amplifiers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States
http://uk.harmankardon.com/tl_files...Specification Sheet - HK 990 (English EU).pdf

1. Does the Stereo Amp + AV Receiver combo make more sense than a AV Receiver and power amp combination?
2. Do you guys have any preferences between the Yamaha, NAD, Denon and/or Harman Kardon components listed?
3. Are there any other Stereo Integrated Amplifers that one would add to this list?
4. What are the Indian prices on the NAD products? (I have already got prices for the Harman and Yamaha products).

 

[aashish351]

When you remove shorting between main in / pre out of an integrated amp to use only main in... you are practically bypassing its pre function. any source connected to the integrated will not send signal to the power amp section. You will have to connect all sources to the AVR. The AVR will give pre out to integrated main in...

If you want to avoid AVR route during music listening... an amp switcher will help you switch between AVR and Integrated as required. In this case... music sources can remain with integrated and movie sources with AVR. You just have to switch between amps on the switcher.

Haven't heard Yamaha or HK.... but NAD C375 is a beast with capabilities to drive even the most difficult loads.

 

[corElement]

Are the seas excel drivers youre getting 8ohms or 4 ohms? They're usuall 8ohms no?

 

[aashish351]

Just read your post again....

A few more things...

1. If music is a separate priority for you, then yes, an integrated will add immense value, however, with sources connected to AVR and pure direct mode through pre-out to a power amp can also work nicely. An aventage level AVR should be adept in sending a quality pure direct signal to its pre-outs.
2. No experience of HK.. but NAD I have already commented about.. Yamaha A-S2000 is also an excellent award winning integrated. Don't go by power ratings... If you like the neutral but attacking sound, go for Yamaha.. If you like laid back, warm sound go for NAD.
3. I would add Creek, Exposure, Arcam along with NAD and push HK and Yamaha a little below.
4. Lokazy is the dealer for NAD. I think C375 is in the 1 L range...

 

[anm]

some stereo amps have an HT bypass. C375 doesn't have it. So one option would be to decide a volume knob position for mains duty in HT.

 

[jaudere]

What Ashish said is correct. I would use a power amp if I am using AVR as preamp. In the same amount, a plain power amp should give more cleaner power as the transformer is used only for amplification and not shared by preamp componets like handling various inputs, tone control/balance control etc. So if integrated amp is used as power amp, it is kind of waste of capabilities of the integrated. One needs to be sure though that what the AVR has is Pre out and not line out. If it is line out, the AVR is not processing the signal and has no control over outgoing signal. Secondly, not all integrated amps come with a separate pre-power section with jumpers. Many will have internal connections from pre section to power section. NAD has jumpers even in C325BEE. I don't know about yamaha/denon/Hk.

 

[navin advani]

When you remove shorting between main in / pre out of an integrated amp to use only main in... you are practically bypassing its pre function. any source connected to the integrated will not send signal to the power amp section. You will have to connect all sources to the AVR. The AVR will give pre out to integrated main in...

If you want to avoid AVR route during music listening... an amp switcher will help you switch between AVR and Integrated as required. In this case... music sources can remain with integrated and movie sources with AVR. You just have to switch between amps on the switcher.

Haven't heard Yamaha or HK.... but NAD C375 is a beast with capabilities to drive even the most difficult loads.

Great thought (I forgot about this) but I would like to avoid the amp switcher. I dont know about the Harman or NAD units (can someone please shed light on these 2 units) but I do know that the Yamaha unit CAN accept an input of a AVR to it's "main-in" and also send the signal from the pre out jack to a powered subwoofer while using the main speakers

From the Yamaha manual:
The PRE OUT jacks output the same channel signal as the
SPEAKERS L/R CH terminals.
When you use a subwoofer, connect it to the PRE OUT jacks
and speakers to the SPEAKERS L/R CH terminals.

I assume hence that there might be some control over how the pre-out can be used (again I need help here).

Come to think of it, wont a better way to send the CD player's signal to the AVR (if one needs to do that, say to operate the subwoofer) would be to use the tape loop ('send') pre-outs? If one used the regular pre-outs the stereo integrated amplifier's volume and tone controls would still be active.

 

[navin advani]

1. If music is a separate priority for you, then yes, an integrated will add immense value, however, with sources connected to AVR and pure direct mode through pre-out to a power amp can also work nicely. An aventage level AVR should be adept in sending a quality pure direct signal to its pre-outs.

2. No experience of HK.. but NAD I have already commented about.. Yamaha A-S2000 is also an excellent award winning integrated. Don't go by power ratings... If you like the neutral but attacking sound, go for Yamaha.. If you like laid back, warm sound go for NAD.

3. I would add Creek, Exposure, Arcam along with NAD and push HK and Yamaha a little below.

4. Lokazy is the dealer for NAD. I think C375 is in the 1 L range...

CoElement, the SEAS drivers I am using are 8 ohms for the 2 woofers but 4 ohms for the mid hence the over all impedance for the tower (WW MT) would be 4 ohms.

Ashish, which AVRs in the price range of the T748, A1010, etc have pure direct mode? Does the pure direct mode bypass all processing? What does it bypass?

Who sells AND services Arcam, Creek and Exposure? Which models would you consider in this price range (1L)?

On a humours note: "Lokazy" (lol what a typo!). Let's call them Lo-krazy na?

I would use a power amp if I am using AVR as preamp.

The AVR would still power the center and 4 rear speakers (if I use an Integrated Stereo Amplifier) and just the 4 rear speakers(if I use a 5 channel power amplifier).

The Integrated is not being used as just a power amplifier. The CD player and Audio Media Player would use it for 2 ch. audio. I was thinking of the Integrated only to bypass all the processing AVRs do to the audio signal.

BTW can anyone recommend me a good affordable 100W/ch 5ch. power amplifier (other than the Marantz MM7055)? I know the Emotiva XPA 3 can also be used as I really would need only 3 channels but it is a bit too bright.

 

[aashish351]

okay... let's back up a little and define your objectives clearly!

1. You want a HT setup with 5 channel suround sound.
2. You want a music setup with purest source to amplificiation
3. You want to use the same front speakers

Is there anything else?

 

[aashish351]

On a different note...

why don't you use the identical 4 SEAS speakers as 2 fronts and 2 rears? dedicate the Floorstanders for music only.... put music sources on a good integrated and ht sources on avr...

keep it simple silly!

 

[jaudere]

I think the OP is looking at 7.1 set up for movies. The issue is bit complicated for me. Will keep a follow up of this thread. If I were in same position, I would use a stereo amp for muscic and AVR for movies and physically change the speaker cables each time I want to change between music and movies. For background music, I will stll use AVR. So need of changing from AVR to stereo will be less. Still better, Only for serious listening I would shift to integrated amp. It is easy task fo mr because I watch only 1 movie in a week while I lisyen to music for at least 2 hours per day. Still better, I would upgrade avr to better AVR which is good for music as well. I think cost of decent AVR + cost of ecent stereo amp = cost of high end AVR good for music. Purists will say that given similar price point, stereo amp will perform better. I agree but here we will have to compare Decent stereo vs high end AVR. The whole set up will be much less complicated with much less wire/cable mess and excellent sound quality.

 

[navin advani]

1. You want a HT setup with 5 channel suround sound.
2. You want a music setup with purest source to amplificiation
3. You want to use the same front speakers
Is there anything else?

yes ashish you put it quite correctly but while 5.1 is today's format I am wiring for 7.1 in case this format does become more prevalent.

I would like to use the same front speakers and front subwoofer for HT and stereo. My front speakers are designed for delicacy and would need help below 45Hz or so.

On a different note...
why don't you use the identical 4 SEAS speakers as 2 fronts and 2 rears? dedicate the Floorstanders for music only....

Ashish, my wife will kill me if I have 2 more speakers just for front HT!

I would use a stereo amp for muscic and AVR for movies and physically change the speaker cables.

My wife uses the living room system too and she also likes good sound. I dont know if I have mentioned this on this forum but some years back I was working on fine tuning the baffle step correction of a pair of speakers (ScanSpeak revelelator drivers) and made a small change (calculations were 0.5db beween 300Hz and 1kHz) and she noticed the change.

My sister's hubby who is also an avid audiophile has also told me that his wife (my sister) can detect changes in interconnect, valves (Stovek EL34 to Mullad for example) and other changes that most would consider should not be detected by non-audiophiles.

My wife wont want to change cables and move the equipment rack. To be honest at my age and with my bad back I wont want do this too often either.

Question really is are amplifiers like the HK990, NAD C375, Yamaha S2000 and their counterparts from Exposure, Arcam, Creek nicer sounding that a 100W/5ch power amplifier (like say the Marantz MM7055). What does an Arcam A38, Exposure 3010S2 or Creek 5350 cost in India anyways? Who supports/services these machnines (Creek, Arcam, etc..)? Harman and NAD for example are supported by Lakozy.

BTW Why do the Harman, NAD and Yamaha machines weigh twice as much as the Arcam/Exposure/Creek producing about the same power?

 

[aashish351]

Weight is a parameter which depends on many factors including material of construction, over sizing of key components like transformer etc. I wouldn't go by that.

Exposure 3010 is in the 1.2 L range. arcam a 38 should be the same I guess. Not sure about creek.

Audio dynamics Bangalore for exposure. Reference point Bangalore for creek.

Buddy, after considering all your views... Best to get a power amp for fronts and connect all sources to avr. Pure direct is a feature in almost all avrs today.

Option two... Get a better avr like anthem, nad or if possible arcam and forget about a separate amp.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2

 

[navin advani]

Weight is a parameter which depends on many factors including material of construction, over sizing of key components like transformer etc.

Exposure 3010 is in the 1.2 L range. arcam a 38 should be the same I guess. Not sure about creek.

Audio dynamics Bangalore for exposure. Reference point Bangalore for creek.

Buddy, after considering all your views... Best to get a power amp for fronts and connect all sources to avr. Pure direct is a feature in almost all avrs today.

1. I agree that we cannot use weight to determine sound quality but weight is usually mostly the power supply. So usually a heavier amplifier would mean a more powerful power supply - that's it nothing more. I understand Power and Sound quality are not always related.

2. Well the HK990 and Yamaha S2000 are not very much cheaper than the Exposure and Arcam.

3. I had originally decided on an AVR + power amp. I could not find a power amp that I liked and could afford. Can you think of some good economical 3 or 5 channel power amps I could use with an AVR like the Yamaha 1010? I dont think a bigger AVR like the Yamaha 3010 or NAD 757 would provide me significantly more power than say the cheaper NAD 748 or Yamaha 1010.

4. What does Pure Direct bypass? In Pure Direct mode does the AVR function as simply as an analog 2 ch. amplifier? Can an AVR's Pure Direct mode compete with the stereo from a good Integrated (like the Yamaha S2000). Do the Yamaha 1010 or NAD 748 have this mode? Any other AVRs in this price range that can be recommended?

 

[jaudere]

Pure direct is good. Still better, To make AVR work like power amp, I used to connect left and right out of my cd player to analogue 'front in' of my Yamaha AVR. Here it works as power amp and you cannot control anything but volume. My Yamha was entry level one and had 5.1 analogue inputs. Not sure whether latest and advanced AVRs have 5.1/7.1 analogues in. If they have, then connect your towers to front speaker terminals of AVR. Connect your BDP to AVR via HDMI and connect your CDP analogue out to 'front in' of AVR. So you will have full AVR features of AVR as well as power amp for music in the same unit. Now select Analogue in for music and 'digital in' of AVR menu for movies .

 

[navin advani]

Pure direct is good. Still better, To make AVR work like power amp, I used to connect left and right out of my cd player to analogue 'front in' of my Yamaha AVR. Here it works as power amp and you cannot control anything but volume...

...If they have, then connect your towers to front speaker terminals of AVR. Connect your BDP to AVR via HDMI and connect your CDP analogue out to 'front in' of AVR. So you will have full AVR features of AVR as well as power amp for music in the same unit...

My belief (based on what I know) is that the power supplies of AVRs as not as well built as the power supplies of similarly priced stereo integrated amplifiers so on just the power amp part I would much prefer a stereo integrated amp for audio than an AVR.

That said I have listed 2 options

(a) my original thought of using an AVR complemented by a power amplifier for center and front channels (hence relieving the AVR from providing power for 70% of the signal in 5.1 mode; then hopefully the pure direct feature would send a rather clean signal to the power amps in 2 ch. audio mode) - this thought process reached a dead end as I could not find an appropriate AVR+Power amp combination (other than the Marantz SR7005 and MM7055). The question is what exactly does pure direct do? If it removes all processing including LFE then would the subwoofers (both front and rear) also be inactive in 2 ch. audio mode?

(b) my friend's (and my brother in law's) contention is that a better solution anyway would be to use a Stereo Integrated Amplifier for audio and then drive the front speakers in 5.1 mode via the main in of the Stereo Integrated Amplifier. For sure the pre amp section of the Stereo Integrated Amplifer can equal if not better the Pure Direct mode of the AVR. If I needed the front subwoofer to be active in audio mode I would then have to send a signal from the Stereo Amplifier to the AVR which would then send the signal to the subwoofer via it's subwoofer out. For this option the best combination in my budget I can think of is the Yamaha S2000 stereo integrated amplifier mated to the Yamaha Aventage A1010. Question here is can a decent stereo integrated amplifier like the S2000 drive a speaker like a good power amplifier (4 channels of the MM7055) can (given that my front speakers are 85db/1W/4ohms)?

If as Ajay says here that the Creek 5350 is available for 80-100K, the Creek 5350 would be the best option to the Yamaha S2000. It can dump current and sounds decent.
http://www.hifivision.com/what-should-i-buy/19815-high-current-audiophile-amps-recommendations.html

BTW (I know this is off topic and maybe sensitive) but have any of you heard of reliability issues with the Marantz SR7005 or other Marantz AVRs? My friend claims he had 2 failures. One was a processor failure. He replaced the Marantz with Denon and loves the support Pro-FX gives.

 

[anm]

I can do the comparison for you.
I have NAD avr and NAD c375. A brief recollection of last time I tried but I CAN be completely wrong, I need to verify once more:

=> with pure direct mode and AVR's amp used, speakers were sounding too bright.
=> with auddessy/ crossover etc engaged the vocals were not centered but randomly distributed.
=> with lyrita pre + c375 as power amp they were still quite bright
=> with c375 as pre+power the sound is quite warm. CDP connected directly to amp via analog.

I need to verify all of the above. I think the c375+nad cdp are too warm, and lacking a bit of bite. Right now listening to c375+thiels and they are sounding nice.

 

[navin advani]

=> with pure direct mode and AVR's amp used, speakers were sounding too bright.
=> with auddessy/ crossover etc engaged the vocals were not centered but randomly distributed.
=> with lyrita pre + c375 as power amp they were still quite bright
=> with c375 as pre+power the sound is quite warm. CDP connected directly to amp via analog.

I need to verify all of the above. I think the c375+nad cdp are too warm, and lacking a bit of bite. Right now listening to c375+thiels and they are sounding nice.

Thanks ANM for this, excellent inputs. The fact that the AVR was bright implies that maybe the Integrated+AVR combo would be better than a AVR+power amp combo right?

So the AVR was very bright even in direct mode. Then again the speakers were bright using a tube (Lyrita) pre amp and the C375 as a power amp but with the CDP connected only to the C375 (Integrated) the sound is warmer.

=> did you try watching movies using the NAD AVR's pre-out connected to the main-in of the C375 (essentially using the C375 as a power amp for 5.1 mode)

=> When you used the C375 as an Integrated amp (with the CDP connected to it), were you able to connect the the C375's pre-out to the AVR and use the subwoofer connected to your AVR for music?

Which Theil speakers are you using with your C375?

 

[anm]

I am using thiel 1.6 - I also suspect that there was some break-in threshold that may have been breached making it sound better.
I will verify everything again.

 

[navin advani]

Thanks everyone for your inputs. Ashish, ANM you guys were extremenly helpful but I could not wait.....I finally bit the bullet. Ordered 2 Yamaha S2000, a Yamaha Aventage 1020 and a Yamaha Aventage 3020.

The black Yamaha S2000 and 1020 would be used in the system discussed above. The 3020 would be used in our bedroom system and the silver (with rose side panels) S2000 would be used by our son (with his JBL 4312Es and JBL subwoofer).

Prices are as yet unknown as they final landed prices will be known only after import formalities are completed.