Need help with acoustic treatment ideas for my room

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atharva

atharva

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I'm starting the interior work of my place and wanted some suggestions on acoustic treatment (walls and ceiling) for 2-channel that MUST blend with the aesthetics. Room is 16x22x9.5. It's L shaped with one side living room. Listening will be 12-15' ft from the front wall with speakers about 3-4' out. I've read a few threads (will try to read more) and a few points stood out..

- Rockwool inside normal false ceiling may through the Gypsum. Acoustic ceiling tiles like Armstrong are better.
- Air gap between the panels and the wall is a good thing.
- Corners should be treated with a bass trap from floor to ceiling
- May be better to leave first reflection points untreated or less treated
- also about harmful properties of rockwool and glasswool

Have contacted AuralExchange and they've sent me catalogues of V/Coustics, Nankarrow and Knauf. Have also seen GikAcoustics.

Agreement with the wife is I get to do anything so long she gets to approve it. May be that's an oxymoron. Is 3 lakhs a good budget?

Don't want to overdo or underdo it so here's my first draft plan.

- bass traps for front corners. Can have the carpenter make 1' wedge shaped plywood box and stuff with low density rockwool. Any better aesthetically pleasing options?

- ceiling treated fully or at least in the listening area of 16x16. My wife would've liked a wooden ceiling and I've seen some acoustic wooden tiles from Armstrong. Worth considering? Is Gypsum ceiling with 2" rockwool inside a confirmed no-no?

- not sure what to do on front wall (wife hates diffusers so that's out). Just extend the bass trap stuff across the wall? Will also mostly have TV mounted here.

- panels on side wall probably filled with rockwool 50mm thick and covered with fabric. May be have 3-4 panels 2'x4' (or 2'x6') that are movable so can be shifted as per preference or removed completely.

- nothing for back wall as it just partially overlaps the listening area and is still 7' behind. The rest is open till almost 30'.

- carpet on floor. Minimum thickness recommended?

Anything I'm missing? Any other brands to consider? I may get a HT setup in the future and am hoping the same treatment works for it too.

Thanks for reading!
 
atharva said:
I'm starting the interior work of my place and wanted some suggestions on acoustic treatment (walls and ceiling) for 2-channel that MUST blend with the aesthetics. Room is 16x22x9.5. It's L shaped with one side living room. Listening will be 12-15' ft from the front wall with speakers about 3-4' out. I've read a few threads (will try to read more) and a few points stood out..

- Rockwool inside normal false ceiling may through the Gypsum. Acoustic ceiling tiles like Armstrong are better.
Click to expand...
No. Gypsum is not acoustically transparent. Rule gypsum out
atharva said:
- May be better to leave first reflection points untreated or less treated
Click to expand...
My opinion is the first reflection point is important to treat. Let others pitch in on this point

atharva said:
- also about harmful properties of rockwool and glasswool
Click to expand...
AFAIK, glasswool is very harmful to the lungs. avoid it.

atharva said:
- bass traps for front corners. Can have the carpenter make 1' wedge shaped plywood box and stuff with low density rockwool. Any better aesthetically pleasing options?
Click to expand...
plywood is not acoustically transparent. So it will not matter what you stuff the inside. Wait for others to chip in and look at what others have done in this forum
 
An
atharva said:
I'm starting the interior work of my place and wanted some suggestions on acoustic treatment (walls and ceiling) for 2-channel that MUST blend with the aesthetics. Room is 16x22x9.5. It's L shaped with one side living room. Listening will be 12-15' ft from the front wall with speakers about 3-4' out. I've read a few threads (will try to read more) and a few points stood out..

- Rockwool inside normal false ceiling may through the Gypsum. Acoustic ceiling tiles like Armstrong are better.
- Air gap between the panels and the wall is a good thing.
- Corners should be treated with a bass trap from floor to ceiling
- May be better to leave first reflection points untreated or less treated
- also about harmful properties of rockwool and glasswool

Have contacted AuralExchange and they've sent me catalogues of V/Coustics, Nankarrow and Knauf. Have also seen GikAcoustics.

Agreement with the wife is I get to do anything so long she gets to approve it. May be that's an oxymoron. Is 3 lakhs a good budget?

Don't want to overdo or underdo it so here's my first draft plan.

- bass traps for front corners. Can have the carpenter make 1' wedge shaped plywood box and stuff with low density rockwool. Any better aesthetically pleasing options?

- ceiling treated fully or at least in the listening area of 16x16. My wife would've liked a wooden ceiling and I've seen some acoustic wooden tiles from Armstrong. Worth considering? Is Gypsum ceiling with 2" rockwool inside a confirmed no-no?

- not sure what to do on front wall (wife hates diffusers so that's out). Just extend the bass trap stuff across the wall? Will also mostly have TV mounted here.

- panels on side wall probably filled with rockwool 50mm thick and covered with fabric. May be have 3-4 panels 2'x4' (or 2'x6') that are movable so can be shifted as per preference or removed completely.

- nothing for back wall as it just partially overlaps the listening area and is still 7' behind. The rest is open till almost 30'.

- carpet on floor. Minimum thickness recommended?

Anything I'm missing? Any other brands to consider? I may get a HT setup in the future and am hoping the same treatment works for it too.

Thanks for reading!
Click to expand...
An FM had posted their experience with a Bangalore company called Anutone. They also do work across Western India.
Will post the thread if I find it.
Should be very doable in your budget with any acoustic company...
Have sent you Anutone's Maharashtra pointperson's contact and one more person's on PM.
Regards and best
 
Best of luck on your journey.

If you want good aesthetics, do consult a professional as its hard work and lots of rework to get this done.

I have used Anutone Ceiling tiles but while it does help, I am not sure of their effectiveness even at mid to high frequencies.

Bass traps are easy to get it done with Rockwool, check my thread and a few others on the step by step process.

I feel absorption works best in first reflection points YMMV.

Front wall diffusor, there are some beautiful QRD based diffusor designs you can check on pinterest. They look like wall paintings/scuptors. If you are planning a projector screen, the diffusor can be behind it (if its of acoustically transparent material).
 
atharva said:
I'm starting the interior work of my place and wanted some suggestions on acoustic treatment (walls and ceiling) for 2-channel that MUST blend with the aesthetics. Room is 16x22x9.5. It's L shaped with one side living room. Listening will be 12-15' ft from the front wall with speakers about 3-4' out. I've read a few threads (will try to read more) and a few points stood out..
Click to expand...

Hello, Atharva,

Have you heard the room before this? Meaning, did you have an audio setup in this room previously? If so, what are you trying to accomplish? What was lacking?

There's a good chance you might end up overdoing the acoustic treatment.

I was on a similar boat, went the DIY route, ended up with everything acoustic treatment related, and ultimately ended up ripping everything apart as it deadened the room. I even got rid of the carpet. The room is livelier now, and sounds just right. I'm sitting on a few bundles of Rockwool that is collecting dust. The carpet rolled up for good, A huge bass trap that did nothing for my room, and not to mention the reduced bank balance!

Have a good listen to the room, first, and then find solutions to treat those very specific trouble areas. I understand that the work is in progress and it's a good time to get everything done at one go; but, in my experience, you can't have a sure shot solution in one go, especially when you have an L shaped room.

Cheers, I hope this 'No Help', helps. :)
 
atharva said:
I'm starting the interior work of my place and wanted some suggestions on acoustic treatment (walls and ceiling) for 2-channel that MUST blend with the aesthetics. Room is 16x22x9.5. It's L shaped with one side living room. Listening will be 12-15' ft from the front wall with speakers about 3-4' out. I've read a few threads (will try to read more) and a few points stood out..

- Rockwool inside normal false ceiling may through the Gypsum. Acoustic ceiling tiles like Armstrong are better.
- Air gap between the panels and the wall is a good thing.
- Corners should be treated with a bass trap from floor to ceiling
- May be better to leave first reflection points untreated or less treated
- also about harmful properties of rockwool and glasswool

Have contacted AuralExchange and they've sent me catalogues of V/Coustics, Nankarrow and Knauf. Have also seen GikAcoustics.

Agreement with the wife is I get to do anything so long she gets to approve it. May be that's an oxymoron. Is 3 lakhs a good budget?

Don't want to overdo or underdo it so here's my first draft plan.

- bass traps for front corners. Can have the carpenter make 1' wedge shaped plywood box and stuff with low density rockwool. Any better aesthetically pleasing options?

- ceiling treated fully or at least in the listening area of 16x16. My wife would've liked a wooden ceiling and I've seen some acoustic wooden tiles from Armstrong. Worth considering? Is Gypsum ceiling with 2" rockwool inside a confirmed no-no?

- not sure what to do on front wall (wife hates diffusers so that's out). Just extend the bass trap stuff across the wall? Will also mostly have TV mounted here.

- panels on side wall probably filled with rockwool 50mm thick and covered with fabric. May be have 3-4 panels 2'x4' (or 2'x6') that are movable so can be shifted as per preference or removed completely.

- nothing for back wall as it just partially overlaps the listening area and is still 7' behind. The rest is open till almost 30'.

- carpet on floor. Minimum thickness recommended?

Anything I'm missing? Any other brands to consider? I may get a HT setup in the future and am hoping the same treatment works for it too.

Thanks for reading!
Click to expand...
Imo use rockwool only for bass traps and go for polyester wool to treat mids and highs. For floor, loop pile carpet works well and it’s quite commonly used carpet used for media rooms. You can also contact aural exchange. They will be expensive compared to DIY but they have lot of options to choose from
 
@mbhangui, thanks for your inputs.

@k-pad thanks for the contact for Anutone.

@sud98 which Anutone tiles did you pick? Although its hard to know the effectiveness I can confirm that a room in my office with ceiling tiles sounds a lot better (while talking) than one that doesn't. Can you PM me the thread you're referring to?

@aeroash, precisely due to the uncertainty I plan to keep everything except the ceiling removable. I doubt the ceiling will be very detrimental.

@Love4sound, thanks for the tips. See below for what I'm thinking for first reflections.

I can't hear the room because its a new place with no furniture. Ceiling has to be decided now. As mentioned in my first post I'm hoping to build 2'x6' panels that can be mounted on the wall but are removable. Bass traps again will be removable.

For ceiling tiles I'm reading that diffusion is better to keep the liveliness except it can't be done in a small room. What NRC have you used? I'm seeing several from 0.5 - 0.9. Armstrong/Anutone and others have wooden acoustic tiles acting more like diffusers than absorbers. Anyone try them?

Anyone tried Vcoustics bass traps like these (https://www.auralexchange.com/produ...eme-ultra-acoustic-corner-bass-trap-set-of-2/) It claims to have some absorption down to 60Hz and is just 6" deep.

For DIY bass traps using Rockwool what density did you use and how thick?

For first reflection point (side walls)
1. Good broadband absorbers (https://www.auralexchange.com/product/nankarrow-studiopanel-160-broadbandcoustic-panel/).
2. Other options..
https://www.auralexchange.com/product/nankarrow-archos-ad-2/
https://www.auralexchange.com/product/echosealwooden-acoustic-panel/

Thanks again.
 
atharva said:
@Love4sound, thanks for the tips. See below for what I'm thinking for first reflections.

I can't hear the room because its a new place with no furniture. Ceiling has to be decided now. As mentioned in my first post I'm hoping to build 2'x6' panels that can be mounted on the wall but are removable. Bass traps again will be removable.

For ceiling tiles I'm reading that diffusion is better to keep the liveliness except it can't be done in a small room. What NRC have you used? I'm seeing several from 0.5 - 0.9. Armstrong/Anutone and others have wooden acoustic tiles acting more like diffusers than absorbers. Anyone try them?

Anyone tried Vcoustics bass traps like these (https://www.auralexchange.com/produ...eme-ultra-acoustic-corner-bass-trap-set-of-2/) It claims to have some absorption down to 60Hz and is just 6" deep.

For DIY bass traps using Rockwool what density did you use and how thick?

For first reflection point (side walls)
1. Good broadband absorbers (https://www.auralexchange.com/product/nankarrow-studiopanel-160-broadbandcoustic-panel/).
2. Other options..
https://www.auralexchange.com/product/nankarrow-archos-ad-2/
https://www.auralexchange.com/product/echosealwooden-acoustic-panel/

Thanks again.
Click to expand...
I used polyester wool 1800gsm and made custom size panels to install in ceiling, rear MLP and first reflection points. The NRC value is around 80. I don’t have bass traps and planning to build corner traps using 2000 gsm polyester wool from aural exchange.
 
The good part of Anutone is they set up the entire ceiling with the iron frame and tiles. Whole thing cost Rs. 20k for a 120 sqft ceiling (5 years back). The model was Subtex charcoal (I think).

This is my for the link for the construction of the room

Building my dedicated Home Theater - An unfinished saga

Its been such a long journey. I started with a Yamaha 459 receiver and two custom speakers to start with my primary passion of movies and occasional listening to music. Then hifivision happened and I realised there are lots of brands and ended up building my equipment list as seen in my...
www.hifivision.com www.hifivision.com
 
Thanks. The images links are broken and the Google drive links are not working. Appreciate if you can repost or enable access to them.

Spoke to Anutone today and they've quoted 500 Rs/sq ft for the ceiling.
 
I checked the bills it was Rs. 384 6 years back, so it might have increased. You having a very large room the bill is much higher.

If its a dedicated room its worth doing it. In my view, Armstrong comes only in white, so avoidable. Keep your room as dark as possible else its a pain to see and the image looks that much better.

Plan well as its difficult to make changes later. With great difficulty I added lights but very limited choices later. With atmos I had planned the speaker conduits so it was much easier.
 
Thanks for the pics. Yes the quote is for complete installation. Will keep your points in mind.
 
atharva said:
Thanks for the pics. Yes the quote is for complete installation. Will keep your points in mind.
Click to expand...
Hi atharva....if you can post a rough drawing of the listening space, including dimensions with your approx listening position, it will be easier for others to suggest from their experiences.

I've treated my room recently with spectacular results. The single biggest jump in sound quality I've ever had. Iam now addicted to it. So keep moving around my panels every few weeks to see the changes it makes.Iam yet to play around with diffusion, but that is on the cards for my next vacations this year.

I would definitely encourage you whole heartedly to proceed with room treatment. I firmly believe that the room is 70% of the sound. I've spent many years spending silly money on the smaller 30%. Since my whole treatment was DIY, my total cost was 80k INR, only for the bass and rear wall treatment. I've got 4 nos of 2 inch panels which I've bought from a friend in addition that I keep playing around with.

Iam no expert at these things, but I've spent a year reading other people's room treatment projects to get a rough idea of where to start with. So below is my own journey spanning over a 4 month period :)

1. The idea of over treating a room till it sounds dead is a myth. It is not over treatment but wrong treatment. The idea is to bring down the reverb time down all across the frequency range. Treble is easiest and cheapest. With bass being the hardest. A room where reverb time has been brought down in treble, with not similar reduction in mid range and bass will sound dead. So stay away from foam based or thin panels which only work in higher frequencies to start with.

2. To avoid the above mistake. Forget first reflection points and diffusion to start with. Always start with treating the most difficult part, which is the bass . Your idea of floor to ceiling corner bass traps is a good one. I would ideally make them wider and deeper, since your room width is 16 ft.
I've used geowool 150 kgs density panels from auralex with great results. They come in 4x2 feet panels. I cut them into 2x2 triangle panels. So we get 4 triangles per one 4x2 panel. When placed in the corners, these will present a absorptive face almost 3 feet wide, with 2.5 ft depth. The 1x1 feet you were considering will be very small to be effective. Remember for bass treatment- surface area and density is everything. ( most people suggested that density between 80 to 100 kgs is the best for bass treatment. I checked with auralex regarding the same. And my specific requirement was to be most effective only in the bass, with minimal effectiveness in the mid range and treble. I only had limited space where i could build bass traps. And i wanted the traps to be most effective in the bass. And they suggested to go ahead with the geowool as its absorption ability starts falling from 200hz upwards. Best is to check with them, about your design goals and room size. My goal was a RTA60 time of below 500ms below 200hz, and below 400ms from 200 to 20000hz )

3. After reading tons of diy room builds, ive found that most experienced members, always suggested treating the back wall first. So next I added only bass absorption on my rear wall, as I almost sit flush on it. My rear trap is 1 feet deep, 8 feet wide and 8.5 ft high from floor to ceiling. The addition of this rear trap brought tremendous focus and clarity to the music. I almost fell off my chair. I never knew my kit was capable of such transparency and resolution. This was the exact moment that I became a advocate of room treatment. I was always sitting in my leather recliner for years. But when I sit now, I can make out the reflections bouncing off the back rest. It is so resolving now. So I moved the recliner to my living room, and bought a fabric sofa cum bed, which doesn't raise to ear level now.

4. Next i got 4 nos of 2x4 feet x 4 inch panels from a friend. These are not usual absorption panels. They are a mix of absorption and reflection ( please dont confuse reflection with diffusion, both are very different). I then placed them at first reflection points on side walls on my dining chairs, that is 2 panels per side wall. ( example - right wall - one panel at first reflection point of right speaker, another panel at first reflection point of left speaker). This was the second uplift in fine nuance. This brought the system to a level where I could hear the singers intake of breathe. If a track was recorded in a large space like a church, it sounds like a church. ( I've read such descriptions in reviews before. And it always pushed my bull shit meter into the clipping zone.... not anymore now :D )

5. Ive added a thick one inch shag rug on the floor, then added one more thin rug on top. This had a calming effect on the room.

I took 4 months to do the above. I would stop at each stage, listen and measure and would proceed with caution. I still haven't mounted the side panels on the side walls, as my front wall is bare at the moment. I will be buying some skyline diffusers this time, and will play around with a combination of absorption and diffusion to see how it sounds to me.

Remember I had mentioned RTA60 target times of 500ms below 200hz, and 400 ms from 200 to 20000hz. With the addition of all the items, including the fabric sofa, my bass reverb time below 150hz is below 500ms now ( closer to 400ms ) and my reverb time from 200 to 20000hz is flat at 250ms. As I mentioned, this is the flatness of the reverb time which doesn't make it sound dead.

But ive stopped for now, as going below 250ms will start making the system sound dry, ( again dry is different from sounding dead ), and it will start approaching the studio sound. That is the reason why i haven't mounted my side panels so far. I want to treat my front wall, but don't want to reduce my reverb time anymore. Which means I might have to go with thiner panels or eventually reduce a few panels. I fondly hope this gives an idea of how to approach the treatment process. All the best with your room :)
 
Last edited:
There are some really great pointers and a must for anyone starting with room treatment.

While the absorption and density for bass absorption(if you are using that method). You need to knw that there is a compromise between airflow and mass that one needs to play with to get the ideal density.

This calculator is of great use here. You can experiment with multiple layers as well as air gap. In many cases, bass (in the 100-250Hz) might need loose rockwool with air gap as the only solution. But there are other things to consider. Also, the total amount of absorption helps in getting Reverb time to decent levels.

You might want to use this calculator for reference

Multi-layer Absorber Calculator

www.acousticmodelling.com

Read this paper from NASA (no less) for reference
 
sud98 said:
There are some really great pointers and a must for anyone starting with room treatment.

While the absorption and density for bass absorption(if you are using that method). You need to knw that there is a compromise between airflow and mass that one needs to play with to get the ideal density.

This calculator is of great use here. You can experiment with multiple layers as well as air gap. In many cases, bass (in the 100-250Hz) might need loose rockwool with air gap as the only solution. But there are other things to consider. Also, the total amount of absorption helps in getting Reverb time to decent levels.

You might want to use this calculator for reference

Multi-layer Absorber Calculator

www.acousticmodelling.com

Read this paper from NASA (no less) for reference
Click to expand...
Thanks for the above links sud :)

I think you shared them with me, during my room build, if my memory serves me right. I wish they had something closer to the 150 kgs density to simulate. Sadly I couldn't find one. This would definitely be a more scientific and fool proof method to approach, if one can understand the terminology and the values being output. So I went in blind. But still very happy in the end....plain luck I would say :)
 
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