Objectivity vs Subjectivity

[vkalia]

Thanks for those suggestions, @arj and @Hiten

A PP design introduced another variable that makes direct comparisons difficult - however, the Sugden sounds very interesting.

I need to listen to one. I am sure it won’t sound the same as a SET, but it would be interesting to hear whether the timbral characteristics are different from other SS topologies (or whether there even IS an audible difference significant enough to definitely not be a placebo).

 

[prem]

Gryphon Audio Colosseum is a Class A, zero global feedback amp. Not sure if it’s still being made or discontinued. Their Mirage model also I think is zero feedback.

Some of the First Watt models are zero feedback amps

 

[aeroash]

This is a real picture of my cupboard in my music room. My wife never opens this cupboard and she always wonders why I'm happy when I come out of my music listening sessions.
View attachment 69395

I see bottle, I respond. Keeps the noise away!

 

[coaltrain]

This is a real picture of my cupboard in my music room. My wife never opens this cupboard and she always wonders why I'm happy when I come out of my music listening sessions.
View attachment 69395

See? Ears do have tastebuds!

I think the Sugden Amps are SE and I believe ZFB as well. I used to own the original A21a many years ago..for its price its very refined but doubt it can do as well as a SET
The Sugden used to measure pretty bad but sound very good

Heard the Sugden many moons ago and it sounded very nice, warm and full bodied. Where it lost out to tubes was in the 3D department.
Having said that, not all tube amps sound ‘tubey’. The Primaluna and Octave I’ve heard sound positively solid state.

 

[arj]

Heard the Sugden many moons ago and it sounded very nice, warm and full bodied. Where it lost out to tubes was in the 3D department.
Having said that, not all tube amps sound ‘tubey’. The Primaluna and Octave I’ve heard sound positively solid state.

yes i had upgraded from that to a Leben600 while both are in completely different price ranges the leben has far more texture to music. the sugden went slightly wooly with the bass. which was very fine with JMR speakers but then moved to merlin and all of that showed up

 

[Analogous]

I saw this and thought,……… I will stick with using my ears and emotions to select and leave the experts to get on with their quest.

A Look at ADC Noise Limits and Distortion - Or "How much difference does the Cosmos APU make?" And a look at 2-channel Room EQ Wizard measurements!

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[aeroash]

I am not friends with them.

This may come as a surprise to you, but one need not be friends with someone to know about their work.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Subjectively - a 5 ohms nichrome wire, tungsten wire and manganin wire all sound very very different IME

 

[Hiten]

For experimenters HERE are some samples. Post #330 has all the files. Flac and MP3 downloadable and also playable without download.
Regards.

 

[Analogous]

Imaginology, tangentially speaking to the topic here

Why we need a new kind of education: Imagination Studies | Aeon Essays

We need a new kind of approach to learning that shifts imagination from the periphery to the foundation of all knowledge

aeon.co

 

[mbhangui]

Imaginology, tangentially speaking to the topic here

Why we need a new kind of education: Imagination Studies | Aeon Essays

We need a new kind of approach to learning that shifts imagination from the periphery to the foundation of all knowledge

aeon.co

Terrific article. Long read but totally worth it

 

[Analogous]

CPR for the dying horse…

SUMMER MUSINGS: "How Much Difference Does It Make?" - On Balance and Adequacy for audiophiles.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[mbhangui]

CPR for the dying horse…

SUMMER MUSINGS: "How Much Difference Does It Make?" - On Balance and Adequacy for audiophiles.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Some gems spoken here

I have on a number of occasions used the word "neurotic" to describe the audiophile pursuit. I trust none of us want to be labeled as having neurotic tendencies, but let me define it here in a way that I hope nobody gets upset with the use of the word.

I trust that for most of us, we can still laugh at ourselves and our neurotic obsessions around listening to and owning $$$$ gear, salivating at beautiful fascia, huge monoblocks, and gorgeous speakers weighing that of an unhealthy corpulent man. But I suspect the vast majority of us would have problems if a fellow audiophile started spewing psychotic material about conspiracy theories or fantastical pseudoscience in the face of obvious financial gain if some of these claims were to be believed and products sold.

I suspect it is because audiophiles can become so obsessed with the hobby that sometimes they will forego strict reality testing and allow "snake oil" claims to infiltrate significantly into the products sold. I don't think this is a good thing.

I personally believe that all of us should find our place of balance in the continuum between the extreme forms of subjective and objective analysis. Audiophiles IMO should be educated in the 'skill' of listening so that they can experience what "neutral" and "transparent" sounds like. My belief is that one should start with trying to achieve objective transparency, and from there, we can decide for ourselves whether EQ or intentionally adding distortions might subjectively "sweeten" the sound quality.

Summarized beautifully, especially about interconnects and cables. Let the flame wars start again

Remember that at its core, the hardware audiophile hobby is a technological pursuit. High quality storage, retrieval, amplification, and transduction of electrical to sound waves are based on science. Engineering is the method by which these physical and electrical principles are realized in the products we own. As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as an audiophile device that changes the sound significantly without at least some measurable effect using today's test gear. Think interconnects and power cables make a "huge" difference? Show us how this manifests in the measurements! When a company proclaims that their products are capable of massive sonic improvement but yet cannot demonstrate an effect, this tells us whether the company employs good engineering or whether the company is operating in the realm of the "snake oil" salesman and/or pursues psychotic wish fulfillment.

 

[arj]

Some gems spoken here

....

Summarized beautifully, especially about interconnects and cables. Let the flame wars start again

Ha ha very true. and yes being neurotic/obsessed with it is what makes this hobby interesting (for me)..perhaps this is the only hobby I had which has survived 20 years and still gong strong due to its multi disciplinary impact where I have learnt electric theory, electromagnetic theory, acoustics, material science, psychology, mechanics of vibration, theory around amp/speaker/turntable design, CD and LP manufacturing, mastering technology, Encoding algorithms...and these are all what came to mind just now and unquantifiable in value.

As long as one is practical and remembers this is after all just a hobby and not life itself and objective is to break away from reality and enjoy an intellectual pursuit. Some of the friends I have made , I would have never made if not for this. Hence if it is measurable or not is inconsequential for some but may be for others but assuming that everyone are in it due to the same reason . Whle the objective, ie listen to the best possible reproduction, might be same but the extent of conformance to what "best" is might be different.

Snake oil abounds everywhere and spread so much through whatsapp..the number of idiots who might have consumed silly amounts of Turmeric/Ginger/Bleach etc to avoid corona are living proof that a majority secretly yearn for snake oil and as long as one is able to justify to himself that the money is well spent is enough and someone else calling him a fool is immaterial

 

[Analogous]

I learnt of a new subspecies: “The Hardware audiophile”

 

[liverpool_for_life]

SUMMER MUSINGS: "How Much Difference Does It Make?" - On Balance and Adequacy for audiophiles.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Wonderful read. Way too balanced for the well-entrenched cultists however. On both sides.

 

[square_wave]

Although this horse is seemingly dead, I wanted to share something from my recent experience before you shovel in the mud and close it off forever.

I did a home demo of 3 speakers in the recent past using 2 different amplifiers. What you read on the forums / or specs vs what you really hear are very different.Your room, your preferences, your music, the actual sound vs what you thought it would be. Please audition before you buy anything. One of the speakers is a multi award winning one. Extremely transparent and resolving. Sounds fantastic with audiophile recordings but sounds bright with half my actual music. Imagine if you buy that online!

 

[Bloom@83]

Although this horse is seemingly dead, I wanted to share something from my recent experience before you shovel in the mud and close it off forever.

I did a home demo of 3 speakers in the recent past using 2 different amplifiers. What you read on the forums / or specs vs what you really hear are very different.Your room, your preferences, your music, the actual sound vs what you thought it would be. Please audition before you buy anything. One of the speakers is a multi award winning one. Extremely transparent and resolving. Sounds fantastic with audiophile recordings but sounds bright with half my actual music. Imagine if you buy that online!

To be honest audiophile recordings sound great with half decent speakers in a decent room.
But who listens to them anyway !
Play me some Led Zep or early Rolling Stones or Burman Sr’s Guide and make THEM sound great , then we are talking ….

 

[coaltrain]

To be honest audiophile recordings sound great with half decent speakers in a decent room.
But who listens to them anyway !
Play me some Led Zep or early Rolling Stones or Burman Sr’s Guide and make THEM sound great , then we are talking ….

True that!
I find the musicianship in audiophile discs to be inversely proportional to the quality of the recording. Soulless noodling.

 

[Yogesh]

I never understand this objectivity vs subjectivity thing. How does it matter how does the measurements matter when you are buying to listen yourselves, receiving via your ears, transmitting trough your nerves, experiencing through your brain. Why does it matter what other instruments perceive?

To my perspective it's like marrying a girl after going through her skin tone, height, weight, various shape measurements and not marrying a girl who makes your heart flutter when you look at her.