Old DIYer needs help: 3 systems, 3 rooms

[navin advani]

Hi all,

This is a long post with many questions. Moderators feel free to move this thread to a more suitable location. Thanks.

I am an old DIYer whose apartment is being renovated (read as WAFed). My wife has insisted that she has enough of my DIY nonsense for the past 15 years and any speakers should be good looking hence I am in the market for systems for our living room, bedroom and son's room. I budgeted 10L for the receivers and speaker systems. 1L for the subwoofers, 2L for the Receivers, that leaves 7L for the speakers (all 3 systems).

Subwoofer:
Since this is hidden I am considering building these (4 of them) my own. Each sub will have a 10" woofer and Passive Radiator and powered by a 250W plate amp all in a 1 cu. ft. box (external dimensions about 14" cube).

However I need advice for 3 receivers as well as 3 speaker systems.

Receiver choices: budget about Rs. 70,000
Pioneer LX55, Denon 2312Ci, Marantz 6006, Yamaha Aventage 810/1010


Speakers:
I posted before before I auditioned a few brands. Brands I have auditioned are the JBL LS series, B&W CM and PSB Imagine. With my music (jazz, blues, and 60s rock) neither satisfied. The JBL's bass disappointed on many fronts, the CM8s bass was tight but the treble was "not right" and PSBs were a tad sharp besides with only 2 5" woofers I wondered if they'd ever drive our rooms.

However with my nephew's music (electronic music I cannot remember or name) the JBLs and PSBs did come alive and outshone the B&Ws. Again each demo room/equipment was different (so a detailed comparision would not be fair).

I have no idea about brands like Paradigm, Golden Ear, Def Tech, or Aperion (the last sells direct so availability in India/Mumbai will be an issue) and really dont intend to audition every brand in India.

What are your opinions on the speaker choices below?

Room 1:
Living Room 25' x 12' x 9' opens to a 20'x 10' x 9' via a 8' wide opening
Application: 7.2 system for 70% DVD and 30% Audio
Budget: 3L without subwoofer.

Speaker Choices:

1. Focal Chorus 726/826V x 2, CC 700/800 Center, SR 700/800 x 4
2. KEF Q900 x 2 , Q600c, Q800d x 4
3. Monitor Audio RX8 x 2, RX Center, RXFX x 4
4. Martin Logan Electromotion ESL x 2, C2, FX2 x 4

Are ESLs even recommended for a dusty-humid climate like Mumbai. We live very close to the sea (about 200 meters from it)


Room 2:
Master bedroom 17' x 16' x 9'
Application: 5.1 system 70% music 30% DVD
Budget: 4L without subwoofer

Speaker Choices:

1. Canton Chrono SL 595 x 2 front, 555 center, 510 x 2 on wall.
2. Heco Celan XT 901 x 2 front, XT Center and XT 301 for rear
3. Morel Signature Floor x 2, Center, Bookshelf x 2
4. Martin Logans would need more rear breathing room that this will install will provide.

Room 3:
Son's bendroom
Application: 2.1 system for teenager (read as high SPL)
Budget 50K without subwoofer

Speaker Choices:

1. Klipsch RF 81 II x 2
2. JBL LS40 x 2
3. Polk LSiM 703 x 2

Lastly what amp should I get a teenager who will abuse it (like teens are wont to do). The amp must have the option of Low Pass out for the subwoofer and high pass to the satellites.

Thanks in advance.

 

[GeorgeO]

Decent budget. Have you considered Cadence speakers?

 

[navin advani]

Decent budget. Have you considered Cadence speakers?

GeorgeO, Thanks so much for replying. I was running out of opinions to tap.

Oh yes I heard a friend's system that uses Cadence Amaya's in 4.0 system (he may have added a sub since then). He lives in dry Nagpur so the ESLs probably last better there compared to humid Mumbai. If it were ESL then Martin Logan's ElectroMotion would have been a no-brainer for us even considering it's less than wide sweet spot (all ML's tend to suffer from this maybe due to the curved diaphram).

There are 3 points to ponder about.

1. Are the AVR like Pioneer, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha limited and is the garbage I am hearing due to the limitations of these AVRs (AVR are notoriously poor in their power supply right?)

2. While Focal, Dali, Monitor, B&W, KEF etc.. all have custom drivers these drivers are nothing special at least when compared to ScanSpeak's Revelator/Illuminator, SEAS Excel, Morel's Supreme, Eton, etc...I suspect the drivers used by Focal, Dali, Monitor, Heco, Canton etc... would be equivalent to the Peerless, SEAS Prestige, SB Acoustics, Wavecor or ScanSpeak Classic lines you know the stuff that retails for $100 and below.

Friends who know me claim I am spoilt by all the Revelator, Supreme, and Focal Audiom etc... and now am never going to satisfied with commercial speakers like the Triangle Esprrit, Monitor Silver, Canton Chrono, Heco Celan, Focal Chorus, Dali Ikon etc and will have to consider brands like Sonus Faber, Vandersteen, Wilson Audio, etc...:sad:

3. DIYing using SEAS Prestige, SB Acoustics or Wavecor is looking like an option. For example a pair of towers using SEAS L22 RN4X /Pwoofers, L18 RNX/P mid and T29 TAF/W tweeter would work out a lot cheaper than a pair of Focal 836Vs, Triangle Antal EX, Heco Celan XT 901, Canton Vento etc...

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=96&Itemid=120
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=189&Itemid=186
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=135

What's your view?

 

[navin advani]

Receiver choices: budget about Rs. 70,000
Pioneer LX55, Denon 2312Ci, Marantz 6006, Yamaha Aventage 810/1010

Update: Reciever choices have changed a bit:
Pioneer SC 55/LX 75
Denon 3312Ci
Yamaha Avantage 2010
Marantz 7005 (or 7006 if it is available before we purchase).

 

[anilva]

Navin,

There is very little to give and take between modern AVRs. They are all built from a commercial standpoint. Even guys like Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo who used to build solid AVRs are now resorting to lighter power supplies and amps. For a home theater they all sound alike. I would go buy one of these or a Marantz for their local support and not worry to much.

Most of the differences will play out on the type of speakers that you use. I will any day go and build a design of my choice using best drivers that my budget can afford and still be able to make a much better one than the market for that budget.

You mentioned WAF and it is important for a speaker. I am sure you have a great carpenter to do good external finishes.

Like George I remember seeing your name on the basslists.....and I am a reasonably old DIYer as well.

May not be much of an advice, but this is what I would do, given your DIY skills.

Cheers.

 

[GeorgeO]

Navin

Are you open to separates for HT? You could look at at a whole raft of options..

 

[santhosh]

Welcome to Hifivision Navin .

Navin might not know me, but he is an avid DIY-er, is active on Team-bhp and very knowledgable on ICE (In Car Entertainment) and on all things audio. Navin, I am S@~+#0$# on T-bhp, not as active as I would like to be.

 

[GeorgeO]

One of favourite lines is apt at this point:

"When an old dog barks, it takes other old dogs to recognise it"

Like George I remember seeing your name on the basslists.....and I am a reasonably old DIYer as well.

May not be much of an advice, but this is what I would do, given your DIY skills.

Cheers.[/QUOTE]

 

[navin advani]

Are you open to separates for HT? You could look at at a whole raft of options..

Sure am...I have not liked any of the AVRs I have heard of late other than Rotel.

One other option: Get an AVR and use it for center and surround channels only. Use a good stereo power amp (I happen to own a few) for the fronts. I'll have to build a relay to turn on the front stereo amp from the AVR though. What do you think?

For a home theater they all sound alike. I would go buy one of these or a Marantz for their local support and not worry to much.

You mentioned WAF and it is important for a speaker. I am sure you have a great carpenter to do good external finishes.

Like George I remember seeing your name on the basslists.....and I am a reasonably old DIYer as well.

May not be much of an advice, but this is what I would do, given your DIY skills.

Hey did you get involved in that 1259 group buy 15 or so years ago?

I was thinking about Marantz and wonder when they'll replace the 7005 with a 7006. Most likely we could upgrade the PS of these AVRs na?

Nah the carpenters I know can make boxes but not stuff like Sonus Faber, Joesph Audio, Kharma, Tidal, Avalon, why even Tannoy's Definition series is seriously good looking.

Now I did not get that part about your advice. What do you advise? DIY? I reckon we can make boxes like Focal's 836V or KEF Q900. I would need to find a "furniture grade" carpenter to get the veneer laid on the boxes.

Actually there is another reason why I re-considered DIY. In my active days (pre 1995) I had relations with many people in Germany, Denmark and the US and used to get drivers at a fraction (15-20%) of the retail (read as Just Speakers, Madisound, A&S Speakers, Meniscus, Solen, Zalytron etc..) prices. I have lost touch with many of them (a few died, a few left audio and a few have other worries and really are not socially active even via email). Today I'd have to pay almost retail pricing which is considerable given that uber-drivers like Accuton/Skanning 22-23cm woofer retails for $600 each (I need 8 8" woofers). Otherwise one could be tempted to build Tony Gee's Ceramic Soup or Troels's Prelude or Accu-Jensen.

Today what is affordable (to me) are woofers and mids from SEAS's Prestige, SB Acoustics, etc...mated to either their tweeters or the B&G Neo 3 PDR which i am dying to try.

Then again I know that the drivers used in the Focal Chorus 836V, KEF Q900, MA RX8, Canton Chrono SL 595, Heco Celan XT 901, Dali Ikon 7, etc...are nothing special (comparable to SEAS Prestige, SB Acoustics, etc..) see link below
untitled

THere are hence 3 options for an ex-DIYer like me.

1. Buy ready made speakers from Focal, KEF, MA, Heco, Dali, etc...
2. Build something that looks like the above speakers using parts from SEAS, SB, Eton, ScanSpeak, etc...now only if that friend of mine (a member here) can get me those 8" woofers I keep asking for.
3. Bite the big bullet and go bananas and build Tony Gee's Ceramic soup and cuppa-soup (Troels's Prelude is way too imposing) along with a center-soup.

Unlike doped paper cone (Neoflex, Nextel, etc..) drivers from SEAS, ScanSpeak, Morel or Focal the Accuton driver are notoriously diffcult to XO almost all of them needing a nothc filter and some frequency compensation and also they need to be heard. Tidal is one manufacturer who really has experience with these drivers and I know someone (also a member here) who has a pair of Tidals

"When an old dog barks, it takes other old dogs to recognise it"

Well at least it is a hell of a racket we make.

Navin might not know me, but he is an avid DIY-er, is active on Team-bhp and very knowledgable on ICE.

Wrong on both counts.

1. I dont know much about ICE. Really; almost nothing.
2. I do remember you.

 

[jls001]

Can I sense a greater inclination for DIY here?? I think you should DIY this project. Greater satisfaction than buying factory made.

 

[GeorgeO]

On the separates front you could look at the Emotiva UMC 1, which costs around $450-500, and is quite well rated, and runs on 110 or 220V, standard. The higher priced Integra or Lexicon or Anthem units are another higher end option.

I built a Hypex Clas D 5 channel amp which sounds very nice it cost me about $1000. You have a whole set of solid state 5 channel amps that are available-Bryston, NAD, Emotiva, Rotel or higher end depending on your taste.

 

[anilva]

Hey did you get involved in that 1259 group buy 15 or so years ago?


Now I did not get that part about your advice. What do you advise? DIY?

Navin,

Yes, I was part of the 1259 group buy 15 years back

Yes, my advice is to go for DIY. You can get some seriously good looking cabinets made in India if you have a good carpenter and time. Check one of the speakers made by 'Suri' in DIY section of the forum.

I would buy Scan Speak or Seas drivers and design a good pair around them. In any case, if it largely HT app, you can do any of the names you listed in the ready made ones.

Cheers.

 

[navin advani]

Yes, I was part of the 1259 group buy 15 years back

I would buy Scan Speak or Seas drivers and design a good pair around them.

1. Small world. I dropped the 1259 in favour of 6 DV12s from Audio Concepts. I originally intended to build 3 DV12s per sub (left and right channels) then a friend needed a sub so i gave him 2 and was left with 4 DV12s.

2. Which drivers are you refering to? Seas Prestige or Scan Speak Revelator? The later are 2.5x the price of the former.

On the separates front you could look at the Emotiva UMC 1

I built a Hypex Clas D 5 channel amp which sounds very nice it cost me about $1000. You have a whole set of solid state 5 channel amps that are available-Bryston, NAD, Emotiva, Rotel or higher end depending on your taste.

George, the living room rack (650 sq. ft) 7.2 system will have room for seperates but the bedroom (300 sq. ft) 5.1 system will have to make do with a single AVR. Marantz 7005? Is that the best there is under 80K? The local grapevine says that Pioneer LX75 is available grey for about this smae price.

Bryston! Now that is a name I forgot. Beautiful stuff. Canadian father and son team.

Can I sense a greater inclination for DIY here?? I think you should DIY this project. Greater satisfaction than buying factory made.

Yes and no.

Yes because:
1. Custom finish of veneer
2. Customise speaker to work with room gain
3. Cost Savings (DIY is about 25-30% of the cost of ready speakers even if the drivers are bought at retail prices from Parts express, Madisound, Solen or Meniscus).

No because
1. The time DIY takes - my time today is extremely limited.
2. The effort and sometimes the failures can be very frustrating.
3. Fit and finish is dependant on a single carpenter's skills.
4. Furniture grade carpenters charge Rs. 800-1000 per day in Mumbai and this might change the cost of the DIY speaker.

 

[GeorgeO]

Navin

You could also consider the Scanspeak Classics-I'm right now building an MTM 2 channel system using the 18W 8545K and the D2905 9500-this one is just a rung below the Revelator. I have a 2 way system using SS Classics and I love the sound. In this kind of segment, a ready made solution would, cost ,as you rightly indicated-about 2X or 3X the amount I will spend-and I dont know of any speaker mfr here in India that currently offers systems using these.

Having said that, I agree DIY is not always suited for everyone-even I may look at a ready made solution for my rear surrounds.In addition there is the time element also to consider-in my case this is going to be the fourth set of speakers, so obviously there is no hurry. My cost for carpentry here is @ 400/day, but these guys are neither punctual nor regular!

 

[navin advani]

You could also consider the Scanspeak Classics-I'm right now building an MTM 2 channel system using the 18W 8545K and the D2905 9500-this one is just a rung below the Revelator.

I have used the 8545 and 9500 in a MT (same friend who needed those DV12 woofers) for a friend.

Nice drivers. The 9500 particularly is a very smooth tweeter - in my view the best value in the SS range.

How would the Jamo C809 (C800 range) compare with the Focal 836V (800V range)?

 

[navin advani]

Update. What do you guys of these 3 systems?

Purchase will happen sometime in August 2012 as our apartment will be ready only in July.


Living Room:27'x12' main area opening into a 20' x10' dining area
AVR + Power amp: Marantz 6006+Marantz 7055 (or NAD T955)
Front Subwoofer: Rythmik DS1510/H600 bass reflex kit
Rear Subwoofer: Klipsch SW311 or Velodyne MiniVee 10
Front Speakers: Focal 836V or Paradigm Studio 100
Center Speaker: Focal 800C or Paradigm CC 690
Rear Speakers (on wall): Focal 800 SR or Paradigm ADP 590


Bedroom: 16' x 17'
AVR: NAD T757
Subwoofer: Klipsch SW 311 or Velodyne MiniVee 10
Front Speakers: Monitor Audio GX 300 or Tannoy Definition DC 8T
Center Speakers: phantom center (no room)
Rear Speakers: Monitor Audio RXFX or Tannoy Revolution DC4

Son's room: 15' x 15'
AVR: Yamaha A810
Subwoofer: JBL L8400 or LS120P
Front and rear speakers: JBL 4312E
Center speaker: Phantom center (no room)

 

[GeorgeO]

Looks good.

 

[anm]

have you auditioned the speaker+avr combos?

 

[navin advani]

have you auditioned the speaker+avr combos?

Nope. I am trying to get audtions but where in South Mumbai do I got for these. It seems like I would have to make a trip to Adelphi (Singapore) just for auditions.

even auditions of these 2 combos would be a good place to start.

1. Marantz 6006 with Focal 836V and Paradigm Sudio 100 where we watch movies 70% of the time
2. NAD T757 with Monitor GX300 and Tannoy Definition DC 8T where we listen to music 70% of the time

Other AVRs I have in mind are the Denon 3312 for the bedroom and Integra 40.3 for my son. However I believe the 6006 and A810 will be prefered.

Also you might have noticed a small 5 channel amplifier in the living room system. Well I am hoping to bi-amp the front channels. If I find I cant I will replace this selection with the XPA3. I however fear the XPA3 might be brighter than the 7055 or 955. Any ideas?

 

[doors666]

Room 2:
Master bedroom 17' x 16' x 9'
Application: 5.1 system 70% music 30% DVD
Budget: 4L without subwoofer

Speaker Choices:

1. Canton Chrono SL 595 x 2 front, 555 center, 510 x 2 on wall.
2. Heco Celan XT 901 x 2 front, XT Center and XT 301 for rear
3. Morel Signature Floor x 2, Center, Bookshelf x 2
4. Martin Logans would need more rear breathing room that this will install will provide.

my 2 cents.
This looks like your primary music system, but you have listed the speakers taking into account your needs for movies also. I suggest you first decide on a stereo system, then add a receiver and some surrounds and center. If you are lucky, your mains manufacturer will also have surrounds and center, if not, pick some surrounds and maybe single bookshelf from the same line as the mains. For movies, it might be a slight compromise, but for music, it will be probably much better. You should not get the feeling later that I am down 10L and still dont have a system where I just love listening to music.:lol:
Also check out some of the ususal suspects, atc, thiels, spendors, proacs, cadence, ushers etc.

It might also be a good idea to get the HT and kid's system first. and then when you have ample time, search and audition for a stereo system.

Room 3:
Son's bendroom
Application: 2.1 system for teenager (read as high SPL)
Budget 50K without subwoofer

Speaker Choices:

1. Klipsch RF 81 II x 2
2. JBL LS40 x 2
3. Polk LSiM 703 x 2

Lastly what amp should I get a teenager who will abuse it (like teens are wont to do). The amp must have the option of Low Pass out for the subwoofer and high pass to the satellites.

Thanks in advance.

Get him an AVR and maybe with an ipod dock. These things come with all sorts of protection circuits. Get speakers with kevlar woofers:lol: