Peter Reinders PTP Solid 12 Turntable with Thomas Schick Arm.

[kartick]

I have received my updated/upgraded phono stage from Viren sir a week ago and am listening to it extensively. It deploys the new tubes and 6F12P along with Cinemag SPU working at 1:18 ratio. I am using DL-103R with 100ohms loading as of now. I have also used Vishay Naked Z-foil in the previous iteration of the phono stage. I am running the new phono with the stock resistors that he has put as I need to assess how the overall tonality has changed and accordingly, will see if the Vishays go in or not. Vishays have a very specific sound character to them and they hold back no information, which sometimes can fee a bit to upfront. I use them in my DAC as well as the loading resistors and won't wanna change 'em. But then again, horses for courses.....

Overall, I am very pleased with what I am hearing with the updated phono stage as compared to the previous one.

 

[Sushant Sharma]

@kartick thanks for your feedback. It is great to hear the thoughts of a seasoned user of the Lyrita phono design. Will join you soon

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Kartick,

Good to hear the new phono is doing better. Could you share some specifics on how its better than the previous one? Any impressions would do. Any particular reason you went for the stock resistors instead of the Vishays which you had previously?

thanks!

 

[kartick]

Hi Kartick,

Good to hear the new phono is doing better. Could you share some specifics on how its better than the previous one? Any impressions would do. Any particular reason you went for the stock resistors instead of the Vishays which you had previously?

thanks!

Hi Stevie,

I'll try to answer the second part first. I have always been playing around with doing tweaks to my system. Sometimes with the crossover values, sometimes with cartridges and what not. Effectively, the overall balance of the system tonally shifts to one side of the spectrum. Then in addition, upon my research, I never gotten any specific answer about what loading resistor value to be used along with DL103R which makes it sound optimal. Of course it will depend on the rest of the system too but what I mean is that if I want to find the Rload about another well regarded cartridge, people usually do have a consensus about the value but it wasn't the case with this one. When I had the previous phono stage, I had acquired Z foils of 33Ohms and 1Kohms as per my research about DL103R then. Using those resistors, I found the sound to be a bit edgy. It could be due to any reason now: overall system, the matching of the loading, cart, arm with the tubes used in the phono stage previously. Since I just got the updated phono amp a few days ago, I didn't want to play with different loading values yet and thought best to run it with the stock resistors. I may fiddle around with 33/1K ohms later and see if they are suited better.

Now regarding my specific impressions about the differences between the two generation of the phono stages. As I said, very few days have been spent so far and I haven't even gone to my staple vinyls to make a proper assessment. So while I don't think I am in a position to be very specific here but at a very high level, I can say that while the older version was also very good, it was not as musically engaging and involving as the new one. The new one has no sharp edges to the sound whatsoever. This is my first encounter with the 6F12P tubes and I sure like these better than the 6S3P-EV tubes. The lushness of the new design makes it more suited for longer listening sessions. I must say when I listened to my phono at Viren sir's house with his Supex cartridge, the clarity, articulation and sheer dynamics of playback bowled me over. A couple of songs and you realize how alive this phono makes music. Only listened to Jazz but the realism was the best I heard in any iteration of Viren Sir's phono designs. It just puts you at ease and you know you want to sit and keep listening and re-discover your records again. Please also consider that my comparisons with the older designs are all memory based as I had taken a break from listening to vinyls for almost 6 months or so. I restarted only when I got my upgraded amp back.

I am terrible when it comes to writing about sound characteristics (as you must have already noticed). Also, am not very experienced with high end/priced phono stages, neither is my TT/cart reference level by any means. So readers may discount my observations accordingly. As they say one's mileage may vary.....

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Kartick,

Thank you so much for your detailed impressions. it does tie in with what Viren has said about the tubes and his new design around them. One suggestion if I may, when you're going to try finding the right loading resistor, stick to one brand otherwise you'll be throwing the other brand's sound in the mix as well and then it might be harder to zero in on the correct value in your system? Just a thought. If I have to hazard a guess, the edge is cos of your cart, the standard 103 isn't as bright/edgy as the R. I heard a sound comparison online also and to my ears it confirmed that the R had more detail but also more 'bite'. Perhaps that's what the z foils are letting through unadulterated while the stock Kiwame's might be taming that a bit. All the best with fine-tuning your system!

Regards

 

[arj]

Hi Stevie,

I'll try to answer the second part first. I have always been playing around with doing tweaks to my system. Sometimes with the crossover values, sometimes with cartridges and what not. Effectively, the overall balance of the system tonally shifts to one side of the spectrum. Then in addition, upon my research, I never gotten any specific answer about what loading resistor value to be used along with DL103R which makes it sound optimal. Of course it will depend on the rest of the system too but what I mean is that if I want to find the Rload about another well regarded cartridge, people usually do have a consensus about the value but it wasn't the case with this one. When I had the previous phono stage, I had acquired Z foils of 33Ohms and 1Kohms as per my research about DL103R then. Using those resistors, I found the sound to be a bit edgy. It could be due to any reason now: overall system, the matching of the loading, cart, arm with the tubes used in the phono stage previously. Since I just got the updated phono amp a few days ago, I didn't want to play with different loading values yet and thought best to run it with the stock resistors. I may fiddle around with 33/1K ohms later and see if they are suited better.

Now regarding my specific impressions about the differences between the two generation of the phono stages. As I said, very few days have been spent so far and I haven't even gone to my staple vinyls to make a proper assessment. So while I don't think I am in a position to be very specific here but at a very high level, I can say that while the older version was also very good, it was not as musically engaging and involving as the new one. The new one has no sharp edges to the sound whatsoever. This is my first encounter with the 6F12P tubes and I sure like these better than the 6S3P-EV tubes. The lushness of the new design makes it more suited for longer listening sessions. I must say when I listened to my phono at Viren sir's house with his Supex cartridge, the clarity, articulation and sheer dynamics of playback bowled me over. A couple of songs and you realize how alive this phono makes music. Only listened to Jazz but the realism was the best I heard in any iteration of Viren Sir's phono designs. It just puts you at ease and you know you want to sit and keep listening and re-discover your records again. Please also consider that my comparisons with the older designs are all memory based as I had taken a break from listening to vinyls for almost 6 months or so. I restarted only when I got my upgraded amp back.

I am terrible when it comes to writing about sound characteristics (as you must have already noticed). Also, am not very experienced with high end/priced phono stages, neither is my TT/cart reference level by any means. So readers may discount my observations accordingly. As they say one's mileage may vary.....

Hi Kartick,

When I was researching it I was told that the best option with the DL103 and 103R is using an SUT. While the 103 does the best in the 1:10 or more range, the 103R does best at around 1:20 or more, the thumb rule being the loading must be at 10-25 times the internal impedance

I found the external loading of 100 ohms ( via the SUT) works very well with both. I did get my 103R fitted with an aluminium shell , the 103 was more organic but the 103R has more resolution

I have since then moved to a SPU as well but the DL103R is a kind of a reference for timing and musicality

 

[kartick]

Hi Kartick,

When I was researching it I was told that the best option with the DL103 and 103R is using an SUT. While the 103 does the best in the 1:10 or more range, the 103R does best at around 1:20 or more, the thumb rule being the loading must be at 10-25 times the internal impedance

I found the external loading of 100 ohms ( via the SUT) works very well with both. I did get my 103R fitted with an aluminium shell , the 103 was more organic but the 103R has more resolution

I have since then moved to a SPU as well but the DL103R is a kind of a reference for timing and musicality

Thanks Arj. It seems I am using the setup more or less as you suggested here. I have 100 ohms and a 1:18 Cinemag SUT right now.

Also, one interesting observation, with the 6S3P tubes, the 1:18 SUT ratio seemed to give a bit too much gain on my setup viz a viz the same 1:18 ratio with the 6F12P tube with the same cartridge. This could potentially be one of the reason why I was finding the sound to be edgy with the previous gen of the phono stage. Also, I have just put in a 24 step stepped attenuator on my preamp and previously I was using the Alps Blue Velvet pot. The new phono with the new pot put together would be effective tonal change that I see with my setup.

Has anyone tried the Allo stepped attenuator?

 

[jls001]

I use 1K on my 103. This is the best sounding to my ears. I tried the recommended 100R, then 200, 400, 500, 1K, 2K, 5K and even 47K.

 

[arj]

I have heard this in another forum as well. is that a 1:10 SUT you are using ?

 

[kartick]

I use 1K on my 103. This is the best sounding to my ears. I tried the recommended 100R, then 200, 400, 500, 1K, 2K, 5K and even 47K.

I had read 1K as an ideal loading on various other sources as well and hence gotten the Vishay Z-foil in that value. Any experiments with trying a 33R value as the loading with 103R?

 

[jls001]

I had read 1K as an ideal loading on various other sources as well and hence gotten the Vishay Z-foil in that value. Any experiments with trying a 33R value as the loading with 103R?

Mine is 103, not the R. I didn't try 33.

33 Ohms doesn't make sense because the coil impedance itself is 50 Ohms IIRC. The usual recommended loading value is 10X the value of coil impedance. Going by this wisdom, even the manufacturer recommended value of 100 Ohms is too low.

 

[jls001]

I had read 1K as an ideal loading on various other sources as well and hence gotten the Vishay Z-foil in that value. Any experiments with trying a 33R value as the loading with 103R?

@arj I don't use a stepup. Never did like what I had (a vintage Japan Audio Note).

Edit: sorry, the post is in reply to arj's question.

 

[kartick]

Mine is 103, not the R. I didn't try 33.

33 Ohms doesn't make sense because the coil impedance itself is 50 Ohms IIRC. The usual recommended loading value is 10X the value of coil impedance. Going by this wisdom, even the manufacturer recommended value of 100 Ohms is too low.

ok. will swap out the 100R with 1KR to see what change I perceive with the 103R. I think coil impedance is 40ohms.

 

[stevieboy]

@kartick the impedance of the R is 14 ohm, so try a 140 ohm resistor too.

@arj What step up and phono do you use? Is yours the royal SPU? Also what value is your loading 100 ohm?

@jls001 If you don't use a step up, what's your chain like?

 

[arj]

@arj What step up and phono do you use? Is yours the royal SPU? Also what value is your loading 100 ohm?

I went for a SPU A95 and use the Ortofon T-30 step up with it. I use the 3 Ohm setting on it since here the settings are as per the internal loading.
I used it with a 1:20 ie approx 100 Ohm and it sounded too bright
My Phono is a Leben phono

 

[jls001]

@jls001 If you don't use a step up, what's your chain like?

DL 103 into Hypnotoad LOMC phono preamp. This phono is based on the low-noise AD797 instrumentation opamp (I built it from the kit made available by @sachu888. I use shunt regulated power supply). After determining that the 103 needs a phono gain of ~62.5 dB I had calibrated the gain of the phono stage to approximately 63 dB.

 

[stevieboy]

Ah that one. I have kick myself on the backside and get around to soldering up my kit it's still lying just like that

 

[malvai]

Ah that one. I have kick myself on the backside and get around to soldering up my kit it's still lying just like that

it really is worth x 200 USD

 

[kartick]

In case it helps anyone out there, I went from 100R to 1KR on my DL-103R and it made the cart sound quite edgy and bright. The 1KR used are Vishay Naked Z-Foils. It could be both the R value as well as the resistor type contributing to this change. I felt 100R was a comfortable value even if it made the sound a tad too smooth. I might try the in between values as well. I will also try if Vishay 100R could give me the correct loading for my setup as well as the right amount of detail retrieval.

 

[stevieboy]

So I got the new phonostage just before Diwali. Been listening for about a week. It has the vishay naked z foils soldered in. Compared to the previous phono, the sound is more detailed, clearer, bass is tighter, more of a left to right soundstage. However the vishays seem to be too bright for me. Also the previous one seemed to have more musical heft, with the human dynamics and touches shining through and the musical intent of a song coming through clearly.. the pauses, ebbs and flow, accents on notes, pressure and force on strings or drums or vocals, the minuscule variations in playing that differ from one human player to another etc. With the old one swapped in, I found myself foot tapping more, head bobbing more, air guitaring more. And it felt like an artiste was pouring emotion out.

Will switch to the Kiwame resistors now and see what happens.