Phono pre suggestion

[Asit]

Dear folks,

Some of you know, I have been using a Dual CS5000 TT, purchased new in 1989. It came with a Ortofon OMB 20 Cart. I have never been big vinyl person, and the TT remained lightly used. a A few years ago, the needle fell off, and I then got a Shure M97xE. Contrary to some views, this Dual has been a lot better than the modern entry level TTs. In my view, Dual missed the boat and came up with their best TTs past 1985, by then the CDPs came into the picture and the better Duals somehow lost prominence. I was using this TT lately with a very modest CA 640p phono-stage which is again good for its price of INR 7K. Unfortunately, the TT motor has failed for a second time, and it's not easy to get it repaired immediately. Anyway I am not throwing away my Dual, and if I can get it repaired, I probably will gift it to my son for his personal use in his room.

Finally, I have taken the plunge and have ordered a new TT. It is the Cello from the German brand Scheu. At the moment I can only afford a Rega RB250 arm and a MM cartridge (Ortofon Super OM 30 which has a nude fine line needle). I have considered, for the last year and a half most of the usual suspects like Pro-ject and Rega; even considered the VPI Scout for a short while and the Clearaudio entry level ones. Finally I settled for the Scheu Cello, because this seems to be a serious TT within the amount I am ready to spend now (already with a stretched budget). This has the same bearing as the more well-known Scheu Premier and the material for the platter is also the exactly the same, just a bit thinner. I think the motor is also the same, just that it is placed in one of the feet of the Cello, instead of being separate from the plinth. BTW, singer Katie Melua has a Scheu TT.

When my new TT arrives, I will post the pictures and my impressions in an appropriate thread. If I like the TT and the format, I may later upgrade the arm and the cart.

But now I realize the new TT perhaps deserves a better phono pre amp. I am not in a hurry to get it, but eventually in a few months it is inevitable, I think. The first thing I will do is to borrow the Ray Samuels Nighthawk from Vasu (myriad) or Pratim for a few hours. These are unbelievably nice people, and so I am assuming they will do the favour. This will set some kind of benchmark for me and will show me the areas of improvement I can expect from a decent phono stage.

I need suggestions for phono pre-amps. My amp is a EL-84 based Japanese product, called Leben CS300, and my speakers are 22 year old Canton Karat 60. I consider the amp-speaker combo to be a strength in my system.

My budget is strictly upto USD 800 (to include the Nighthawk), the lower the better. I like natural tone with transparancy. BTW, I am looking for only SS phono stages, because I already have tubes in my amp, and for the moment that is enough I think .

The ones I am considering:

1. Ray Samuels Nighthawk
2. Lehmann Audio Black Cube
3. Graham Slee Era Gold V
4. Trigon Vanguard II
5. Jasmine Audio LP2.0 mkII
6. Promitheus Audio phono pre

The 4th and the 5th above are relatively unknown. The Trigon was suggested by the Listening Room, Bangalore from where I am getting the TT. The Jasmine is a Chinese product. From whatever information available on the net, the Jasmine is a marvelous little product at around USD 600. The Jasmine and the Promitheus both come with separate power supply at USD 600 or under it (in case of the Promitheus).

Any discussion or suggestion of the above or anything else will be highly appreciated.

Regards.

 

[Bluu]

Congrats on the Cello! I was wondering when you will break the news to the forum.

 

[odyssey]

Hi Asit
between the nighthawk and the Lehmann, I would recommend the former, I have a customer who has used both with the VPIs.

The chinese stuff is usually good value but in general quality control isn't very good.

Since you are going to the US, you have the option of getting back the Nighthawk - battery powered, so no voltage conversions needed.

cheers

 

[jls001]

Musical Surroundings' Phonomena II is also supposed to be quite good and shud fall within your budget.
Joshua

 

[malvai]

Nighthawk for sure....
have heard blackcube, musical surroundings, and a few more... all are good. the Nighthawk though, despite its budget price tag, is UP THERE with the best of the best!

 

[Asit]

Bluu,
Thank you for renewing my interest in the Cello again in a thread some time ago.

Sridhar, Joshua and Manav
Thanks for the feedback. Round 1 has then gone to the Nighthawk.

Sridhar,
My trip is still unsure. I have an administrative responsibility here and it may fall during my intended trip to the US. That's why I am still to buy my air ticket. In addition, even if I end up going there, I will not be in my hotel the entire business hours of the day. I hope the hotel people can accept the delivery, if I decide in favour of the Nighthawk or anything else from the US.

Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I really don't know what price range you guys are talking about, but a couple of brands that occur to me that were hailed as extremely good value for money, at least when they started, were NAD and Project Audio.

My amp is old enough to have a phone stage, but, since my TT is currently connected to my PC, I have been musing about Project Audio recently

 

[GeorgeO]

Check out Hagerman Technologies-a friend bought a kit phon stage from there and is happy.It may not be as high end as some of the others you mentioned, but worth a look.

 

[marsilians]

Hi Asit

I have been making a slow entry in Vinyl myself. Have a Technics 1200 MK2 with KABUSA upgrades on the way after starting with a technics 1650. I have listened to about 20 or so turntables from state of the art VPI to run of the mill technics and Rega's. I think I will give it one or two years to see if I settle down to like the sound.

I too have been on a hunt for decent phono stages and ones that I really like are:

PS Audio GCPH (used) - absolutely stunning with very quite MM/MC sections and very very neutral production
Grado PH-1 (new) - Slightly forward but again in comparison to more expensive ones.
Graham Slee Gold (used) - a very balanced and neutral stage

If you can up your budget a bit, any newer Sim Audio phono stages are absolutely fantastic in performance as well.

For budget pricing a Cambridge Audio 640P is a very decent entry level one as well.

Good luck in your search.

 

[Asit]

Great going folks! More new posts with new suggestions. Thanks.

Thad,
I too have phono (both MM/MC) built in my very old amp that's doing duty in my son's room with a pair of Dali bookshelves.

I have a feeling the Nad quality may have faltered a bit of late. I did own a Nad amp some time back, and sold it off, but the legendary 3020 was real value for money. The PP2 does a job at its price point, but I already have a CA 640p. The better one in the Pro-ject table is the tubebox, but as I said I wanted to try out a SS.

George,
The Hagerman Technologies is a very interesting suggestion, and it is very tempting to try them out. The problem is that I have zero skills as far as DIY skills go and Sangram has now settled away from Kolkata. There is nobody to help me out. The Cornet 2 looks very interesting, and the half kit costs around USD 500. I love trying out new things and this looks very good, no doubt about it.

Marsilians,
Good to get a post from you after a long time. Glad to know that you are also venturing into some vinyl activity. I have listed a Graham Slee in my list above, so it's already in my consideration. I am also aware of the PS Audio GCPH and some guys on the net are absolutely crazy about it, but I have to confess I have not done a serious research on them. The Grados I have not considered so far. Okay, I will look them up. Remember, my budget is strictly upto USD 800, otherwise I could have considered a few more like an EAR 834 etc. How expensive are the Sim Audios? You are right about the CA 640p; for the price it's very good, as mentioned both in my initial post and reply to Thad, because I already own it.

Regards.

 

[GeorgeO]

Asit

Should you want to, I can easily get it assembled for you here in Bangalore, at a very reasonable price( a few hundreds, max). The friend who bought the kit(Bugle-$99) got the kit assembled here, and a local enclosure was also procured for Rs 100! Someone else saw the assembly being done and promptly bought himself also a similar kit.

 

[arj]

Hi Asit,
I have really been doing a lot of reading on Analogue these days and realised there is so much to learn there. The (simplistic) guiding principle i have realised for this is as below. would be really great if the experienced Anlaogue experts can embellish/correct/explain any of these as the amount of information is really tremendous and sometimes conflicting

1. get the best table you can- very subjective and personal too many parameters OR too little depending on how you want to buy
2. get the best arm you can buy-again subjective some amount of synergy required but something like the transport mechanism for a Cd player ..each "design" has its own strengts

3. Get the best Cartridge for the Arm : this is much more scientific than 1&2 and is based on mechanical synergy as well as kind of sound you want from the cart. very much like Preamp-Amp combo.( I'm not getting in to the MC/MM debate here)

4. get the most synergistic Phono for the cart: this is a make or break for the entire system and almost equivalent to the amp-speaker synergy. a great Phono and a great Cart can also not work well together.This is is perhaps which can make the biggest difference and is based on the kind of music,the kind of LPs you have aswell as the kind of sound you want.
So my understanding is there is no best Phono..just the phono which will synergise with your Cart/Arm/TT and make the rest of the setup sing best for your ear.
and the best way is to ask users who use the same cart for opinions

Typically SS phonos have a much lower noise floor and smaller footprint so could be preferred, although tubes bring in their own magic

for SS, the Graham Slee and the Nighthawk both seem to be really good. from what I read the Jasmine is also an amazing + VFM phono for the sub 800 USd range.
i would excude the Lehmann black etc as for the price the above 3 seem to be far better.

The jasmine seems like a good find as it seems be recommended by Arthur Salvatore as well. I might just go with the Trigon as option 1 or the Jasmine in that order..Jochens got a great pair of ears and lots of experience/sensible advice, and he knows his TTs well so there might be the synergy you are looking for..

 

[marsilians]

Marsilians,
Good to get a post from you after a long time. Glad to know that you are also venturing into some vinyl activity. I have listed a Graham Slee in my list above, so it's already in my consideration. I am also aware of the PS Audio GCPH and some guys on the net are absolutely crazy about it, but I have to confess I have not done a serious research on them. The Grados I have not considered so far. Okay, I will look them up. Remember, my budget is strictly upto USD 800, otherwise I could have considered a few more like an EAR 834 etc. How expensive are the Sim Audios? You are right about the CA 640p; for the price it's very good, as mentioned both in my initial post and reply to Thad, because I already own it.

Regards.

Thanks a lot my friend. I had to go on a hiatus for a few months as I had some personal commitments to take care of and could not afford too much time to the hobby.

I wanted to concur with your re: Graham Slee and sorry I missed the post re: 640P.

Now re: Sim Audio, the 110LP is right within your budget for a new unit. Also a used 310 LP could be possible trade option as well.

I have listened to both and the 310 came out as very dynamic esp. against good recordings. The 110 was a tad lighter however its a great VFM I would still say. This is again only when compared to the 310 LP. If you have ever listened to the moon line of products (amps, CDP or integrated), the classic Sim Audio sound signature is very dynamic along with a huge sound stage and great detail. the 110 and 310 are along the same lines as well.

I dont think you will go wrong with either one of them.

 

[Asit]

Sorry guys, didn't find much time during the day.

George,
A very nice gesture. Thanking you is not enough for the service you have offered to somebody you have not even met. If I decide to go with Hagerman Technologies, I WILL need your help.

Arj,
A very nice and detailed post. You were a great help when I was in the process of deciding in favour of my Leben amp. I learned a lot from you then (I still sometimes go to that thread, and read some of the posts.).
Well, this is all the TT I can afford right now. Now regarding the phono stage, I am willing to try and experiment a bit with a very open mind. I am avoiding tube phono stages because of several reasons: they are more prone to hums (correct me if I am wrong), secondly, somehow I have developed great respect for all Lebens while owning only one of their products and am not ready to take anything less than the Leben phono stage (which is phenomenal I hear but costs a bomb, more expensive than my amp), and then perhaps the TT has also to be better. This is garbage reasoning, I know.

Marsilians,
Nice to get more info on the Moon phono pre-amps. Which one did you get, or you are still undecided?

With responses like the above, in this thread we are going to have a nice repository of phono pre amps in this price range, for everybody's reference. I hope more responses keep pouring in.

Regards.

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hello Asit,

Good to see a music lover taking the plunge to get back into vinyl playback. Musically, it is very rewarding.

And, do not write off a tube phono preamp. Low level signals are where tubes really shine. Though tube preamps are more prone to noise pickup than solid-state preamps, tube preamps also pick up and preserve more musical details than solid-state ever will. (By the way, Lyrita's tube phono preamps have evolved quite a bit over the earlier ones).

Audition a tube preamp, and you will hear the difference right away. It will actually reinforce your tube amp setup.

Regards,
Viren

 

[Asit]

Viren,
Nice of you to drop in with your valuable comments. Please do not take it too seriously when I say I do not want to consider a tube phono stage. Look at my very long amp thread "Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study". There initially I was not even willing to look at tubes, but ultimately I ended up buying a tube amp, and I am happy I did. Who knows what will happen this time, but for sure I am not going to buy a Leben phono stage, unless I win a lottery. Your phono stage is being used by several people whose ears I rely a lot on, and although I have never heard one (although seen one), I am pretty sure it brings out the music well.

I have owned a TT since 1986. First a Technics and then a Dual. But never have been a true vinyl person. But you are right, this is my first serious step into this vinyl business, at least that's how I'd like to look at it. The previous TT purchases and its usage was rather casual, but this time I have already spent some time on it, trying to really learn the TT and the medium more seriously.

Regards.

 

[odyssey]

Hi Asit
the Leben phono stage costs quite a bit less than what you paid for your Leben int amp, why did you get the impression that it costs more. While it deserves all the positive reviews, I would encourage you to get a phono pre that is adjustable in terms of gain and loading since this in itself are very good tweaks to have and in addition, gives you future proof compatibility with other cartridges or TTs

cheers

 

[Asit]

Hi Asit
the Leben phono stage costs quite a bit less than what you paid for your Leben int amp, why did you get the impression that it costs more. While it deserves all the positive reviews, I would encourage you to get a phono pre that is adjustable in terms of gain and loading since this in itself are very good tweaks to have and in addition, gives you future proof compatibility with other cartridges or TTs

cheers

Is that true? Of course, you know it. I think I read a review on the Leben CS300 amp where it was mentioned that the CS300 or any of the integrateds do not have a phono stage built in, and Hyodo San takes his phono very seriously and that's why it is separate and costs quite a lot. I'll try to dig up that review. I have them all stored somewhere. But whatever it costs, I am, for the present, looking at a whole different price range.

You have mentioned a very important point, namely that, adjustability of load and gain is a crucial aspect, not only to match many carts but also to get the best out of a given cart. I will keep that in mind.

Regards.

 

[arj]

.....Arj,
A very nice and detailed post. You were a great help when I was in the process of deciding in favour of my Leben amp. I learned a lot from you then (I still sometimes go to that thread, and read some of the posts.).

"We come nearest to the great when we are great in humility." - Rabindranath Tagore
you words reminded me of this...it is so many of us who actually learnt from you !

.....
Well, this is all the TT I can afford right now. Now regarding the phono stage, I am willing to try and experiment a bit with a very open mind. I am avoiding tube phono stages because of several reasons: they are more prone to hums (correct me if I am wrong), secondly, somehow I have developed great respect for all Lebens while owning only one of their products and am not ready to take anything less than the Leben phono stage (which is phenomenal I hear but costs a bomb, more expensive than my amp), and then perhaps the TT has also to be better. This is garbage reasoning, I know.

Hum is something else.. i did have a hum initially with my phono but with both the ground leads at TT andPhono disconnected there is absolutely no hum. I have not got to tube rolling etc on my phono yet and have no gripe about it other than the fact that it is too big needs a rack space of its own. the advantage of an SS is the size..can be kept near to the TT (away from the cartridge though)

the Leben Phono is something

BTW , in order to understand the TT better my reasoning has been that a TT is primarily about
Plinth: the body..depending on the type of TT provides the structural inegerity and vibration control.this can be augmented by external vibration control
Bearing : the heart of the TT..this has to be as smooth as possible and is most impacted by design/materials
Motor+ Drive : maybe the 2nd heart provides the drive/maintain speed control etc..
I believe the Scheu (by just being german) would be excellent in all of the above so by just changing tonearms/cartridge and proper vibration control, the upgrade path should be somthing to look forward to in the future ?

 

[Asit]

BTW , in order to understand the TT better my reasoning has been that a TT is primarily about
Plinth: the body..depending on the type of TT provides the structural inegerity and vibration control.this can be augmented by external vibration control
Bearing : the heart of the TT..this has to be as smooth as possible and is most impacted by design/materials
Motor+ Drive : maybe the 2nd heart provides the drive/maintain speed control etc..
I believe the Scheu (by just being german) would be excellent in all of the above so by just changing tonearms/cartridge and proper vibration control, the upgrade path should be somthing to look forward to in the future ?

Well, I have ignored your comments about me, didn't I?

I'll also include the platter to your list above, unless you have already included it when you mentioned 'drive'. Yes, from whatever little I have read and experienced, I think you are spot on with your observations. The Scheu bearing on the Cello/Premier is so good that without power if one just spins the platter lightly, it goes on rotating for more than 5 minutes. One reviewer writes that he stopped the watch after 5 minutes. That's something, isn't it? I am sure many other good TTs may have this kind of a bearing, nevertheless, it impresses me no end, even being a physicist myself.

I just collected some interesting information on the Trigon. I'll post them later. I'll be very busy during the day and may not have the time. This is along the line of adjustability in terms of different loads and gain to suit many carts.

Regards.