Power cable for integrated amplifier.

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Although I did not like the tone of the first post, I agree with RSUD here;)

Getting closer to the unamplified acoustic instrument or sound. That is the only criteria for measuring power cords or any other tweak :)

I can tell you something I learned during some of my initial experiments with an older gentleman who is a very senior audiophile while evaluating focus and separation of sounds. In a western classical passage from Nikolai Rimskey Korsakov - Allegro Molto the burmester test cd track 7, there is a distinct bass drum behind the mass of instruments which kicks in during the crescendo. The stock power cord masks this detail. You can hear a fat drum but it is mixed up with the rest of the instruments and lacks any definition. The upgraded power cord makes the bass drum sound like a separate entity. Detailed and clean. This is just one observation. Remember the power cord is doing the same for all other sounds in the mix. Basically it removed overall muddiness.. simple as that..... The drum is just one obvious observation.

I am more of an music lover than an audiophile. Once I realized what these tweaks can do, I did them to a rational level which compliments the resolving level of my equipment and left it at that and just enjoy my music. May be I will go into the SHARPENER MODE again if I upgrade my equipment to the next level ;)
 
Hi rsud,

Well i have been experimenting with power cords for the last 10 years or so. From the budget Nads/Rotels to the arcams/cyrus then on to the Bryston amps and now with the accuphase. The speakers have slways been B&W (603/704/804/805) with only one Dynaudio contour 1.3 SE in between.

I never said a power cord makes no difference. Far from it but some certainly dont make it better and some certainly do. One has to experiment. There is no sense in just buying an expensive one and expecting miracles as that most likely wont happen. I generally go DIY in power cords and am happy.

Rsud i am not taking a dig at u or anyone. I am happy with my accuphase/B&W for now and am really hoping the upgrade bug flies past me:eek:hyeah::eek:hyeah:
Yes u are right in the fact that i wont spend silly amounts of money on a power cord when i can get similar performance for much less. I state that i almost never use the supplied power cord that comes with gear but either one of my branded or DIY attempts.

Rgds
 
I do not think there is any doubt in anybody's mind that for audio equipments of any reasonable quality one needs good quality power and obviously you need a power cord of decent quality with decent plugs and sockets. I am pretty sure marsilians also would agree to that.

But I suppose the question is how far does one go. In the opinion of dinyaar and a few others, after a lot of experimentation, there is not much 'improvement' beyond a point, and that point is achieved without spending an insane amount of money.

Rsud has mildly suggested that dinyaar perhaps may go for an upgrade of his electronics. I have to admit I almost fell off the chair at that suggestion, because dinyaar must be contemplating making a complaint with the designers of his Brystons and Accuphase amps.

I have a question for rsud. Sir, when you talk about improvement due to an exotic cable over a very good (but not exotic) cable, would you be kind enough to describe it? what exactly do you see improved? Is it the tonality, or the resolution or what is it? Please do not say that square_wave in his post above has already answered my question. No, he has not. Because you are surely raising the question of exotic cables, and square_wave in his two posts was not referring to exotic cables, just good quality ones replacing perhaps the low-quality stock ones. This would help me understand your argument. I would also like to understand your musical tastes and experience. I am expecting a technical answer on the music part because I think anything else is not acceptable to back up your argument. After all it's the music all the quipment is for. And lastly, I would like to know your stereo setup.

I would encourage an answer from you only if you can do it without a tone of insult and patronization.
 
Hi guys,

Asit this "HOW FAR DOES ONE GO" is the real issue here, at least for me. There is ALWAYS something better. Am not in the least offended by rsud suggesting upgrade or anything really. I have always heard this from various people that these high end power cords can only reveal in similar really high end rigs. So when friends are kind enough to lend me some really exotic (ridiculously priced too) i hear them and see what the power cord offers. There was one (transparent reference if i am correct priced at 1L) which was really a BIG CHANGE. U notice the difference in the first few seconds of the music playing. This was ages ago and ever since then i have been a believer that power cords will definately do something, now whether one likes that something or has heart to shell out this kind of money is a different issue entirely. I dont even want to go into the fact that the 1L on the cable MAY BE better spent on a component upgrade but that does not take away from the fact that the cable does alter the sonic presentation.

I too like SW was objecting to the 'tone' of rsuds post.

rgds
 
Try LISTENING instead of watching BULBS :D For a change:indifferent14:

Fair question and my last response on this thread -

Side note : I have never mentioned nor questioned the fact that non-stock power chords change the sound signature. What I have written about it enhancing or making a huge difference as some have quoted. So read my posts with that perspective.

Cables I have personally used or setup and auditioned (after break in) are

PS Audio Statement
DS Labs Power Plus Studio Reference
Shunyata Black Mamba v2
BPT L12
Kimber Kable PK14
and some DIYs by friends.

So there is the element of experience behind my posts.
 
Yes, I completely agree with you, cranky. There is NO need to engage in a discussion with this guy. Very frankly, I even doubt what sort of experience and knowledge this guy has, both about music and audio equipments. Even if he has any, I have nothing to learn from him. As soon as I have asked him a few questions about his set-ups, music etc, he has vanished from the scene. I have NO intentions of smoothening things with this guy. You mentioned about 'upbringing', unfortunately I do not see anything 'up' about it, it's all very shamefully down. And very frankly, I do not know why the moderator has not deleted such posts!
 
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Its very unfortunate that a single person has tuned out the be a bad apple in rsud. It is very easy to insult people as it only takes typing a few key phrases or words. However there should be no room for that. I would advice him/her to maintain complete restraint on the language for future postings.

Note to Admin : please delete the offending posts and if there is a continuing trend, may want to consider banning the individual.
 
Yes, I completely agree with you, cranky. There is NO need to engage in a discussion with this guy. Very frankly, I even doubt what sort of experience and knowledge this guy has, both about music and audio equipments. Even if he has any, I have nothing to learn from him. As soon as I have asked him a few questions about his set-ups, music etc, he has vanished from the scene. I have NO intentions of smoothening things with this guy. You mentioned about 'upbringing', unfortunately I do not see anything 'up' about it, it's all very shamefully down. And very frankly, I do not know why the moderator has not deleted such posts!

Vanished from the scene??? This along with your other charges is your conclusion after a scant 24 hours? Could it be that I have other venues in life and don't spend all my hours sitting at the keyboard with this forum on my screen?? Hmm...? I suggest you read my post here in entirety and no I haven't called you any names...

As for the tizzy you and cranky are in, below is a quote from Cranky's post to me.

"...just because you hear what you want to hear (most high-end audio is placebo, beyond a point)..."

I personally find this statement along with some of the other statements in cranky's post offensive and will not hesitate to take it to the next level. No apologies.

One of my mentors taught me the following and it's the primary axiom I live by:

"Its not what you don't know that hurts you. It's what you don't know but think is so"

I find this forum full of wrong opinion and intellectual laziness where conclusions are offered with no experience. Look at your own post where within 24 hours you decided to declare me as something with no knowledge. But I'll overlook and answer your original questions.

As for exotic cables, I never said anything about exotic cables. To me there are cables and then there are better cables. And better is defined by how they sound and not how much they cost. And better sound is what gets closer to the sound of an unamplified acoustic instrument. This standard was set by the absolute sound magazine (and I follow it) which puts objectively heard sound quality above all other criteria. Its great reading.

Per your own post you state:

"one needs good quality power and obviously you need a power cord of decent quality with decent plugs and sockets"

So if you say there could be a difference in badly constructed cables and "decent" cable (and what exactly is a decent cable, sir?) why would you discount that there could be even better materials that could result in a cable better than your "decent cable". Is this a conceit on your part so you can fit the world into your predefined version of it? Very dangerous sir. Go listen to different power cables.

Square_wave has given an excellent description of an objectively perceived difference in cable. I could not have said it any better.

As for equipment I have, I run an analogue system with a VPI turntable and souther linear tracking arm and shelter 501 cartridge. I have a melos tube preamp feeding a quad amp and quad speakers. I run hand built power cables, monster power conditioners (its the only good thing monster makes as their speaker and interconnect cables suck) and FMS cables for interconnects and speaker cable.

How about your system?

As for your comment about dinyaar's Bryston and Accuphase amps, I owned a Bryston 3B PRO amp for many years. Bryston makes some great stuff. I know of but have never heard Accuphase.
 
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Although I did not like the tone of the first post, I agree with RSUD here;)

Getting closer to the unamplified acoustic instrument or sound. That is the only criteria for measuring power cords or any other tweak :)

I can tell you something I learned during some of my initial experiments with an older gentleman who is a very senior audiophile while evaluating focus and separation of sounds. In a western classical passage from Nikolai Rimskey Korsakov - Allegro Molto the burmester test cd track 7, there is a distinct bass drum behind the mass of instruments which kicks in during the crescendo. The stock power cord masks this detail. You can hear a fat drum but it is mixed up with the rest of the instruments and lacks any definition. The upgraded power cord makes the bass drum sound like a separate entity. Detailed and clean. This is just one observation. Remember the power cord is doing the same for all other sounds in the mix. Basically it removed overall muddiness.. simple as that..... The drum is just one obvious observation.

I am more of an music lover than an audiophile. Once I realized what these tweaks can do, I did them to a rational level which compliments the resolving level of my equipment and left it at that and just enjoy my music. May be I will go into the SHARPENER MODE again if I upgrade my equipment to the next level ;)

Square_wave, I enjoyed your description of the effect of different cable and its spot on with my experience. Thank you for putting it so well!

Since you have perceived this level of difference so well I would like to suggest another experiment for you. Raise your speaker cables off the floor. As ludicrous as it sounds you will hear a difference. Further, as ludicrous as it sounds I have my speaker and interconnect cables floating in air by using strings from the ceiling tying my cables off the floor. My system is in my home basement so my wife has no complaints :lol:. If you are unable to do string try small wooden blocks or something similar to reduce contact and get the cables at least 6 inches off the floor.

It defies scientific explanation (and so does power cable!) but what I hear is a loss of phasiness to the sound. Voices and instruments become more whole and solid. Its subtle but as you can hear power cable I'm certain you will perceive this. I learned this from a friend who has a system that makes mine sound like a toy.

If I were to offer a completely subjective opinion of what is going on here I can only come up with the electromagnetic field generated around the cable as current passes through it. It makes sense that any material that the electromagnetic field comes in contact with (like concrete or carpeting, etc of the floor) will affect it which can then effect the current flowing through the cable. The varying frequencies flowing through the cable as music plays may cause an oscillation or resonance in relation to the electromagnetic field and the material it comes in contact with. The cause here is my total opinion, but the audible effect is not.

This effect is written up as phenomena in a couple of very high-end magazines but even there it has controversy.
 
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RSUD, that last one was very interesting and funny. I will obviously have to try it and find out myself if it works or not but strings from the ceiling holding cables is something that is going to take some time for me to do....
Anyways your posts are interesting to read as long as they respect all forum members....
 
Hi Guys,
Hmmmm cable elevators now:licklips:

Have been reading for a while about the above and tried it. Even got those ceramic elevators on loan and it made zero difference to the sound to my ears. I have a nitwit of a maid who keeps moving/tugging the speaker cables when she waves the broom and to combat this i have got ceramic hooks on the walls on which my speaker cables hang(This is visible in all my snaps of The set up and have been doing this for about 10 years or so). They absolutely do not touch the floor as they go from the amp onto the hooks onto the speaker.
This was done for my peace of mind and there is no difference to the sound though the cables are 'elevated' from the floor.

rgds
 
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I have answers to each of the issues you have raised and a few more you have avoided answering. To summarize, let me just say that your whole post has no or little subsatnce. If you want to find out why I say so, please read on.

Vanished from the scene??? This along with your other charges is your conclusion after a scant 24 hours?

Please compare the readiness with which you chose to answer anybody who may have had doubts about your assertions to the time you have taken to respond to my questions. BTW, my questions were to be raised in order to understand where you are coming from, on the basis of what you are trying to make a mockery of a public forum where many new audio and video enthusiasts are joining every day to get a view. I would agree though perhaps it was a bit of an exaggeration, but it's only that, nothing more.

I suggest you read my post here in entirety and no I haven't called you any names...

Thank you very much for sparing me of the verbal abuse. I am relieved for the moment. Don't know what's coming in the future!

As for the tizzy you and cranky are in, below is a quote from Cranky's post to me.

Well, the results (=tizziness on the part of me and cranky) of an observer depends on the observer or measuring instrument (you). I have nothing else to say here. All the posts are there for everybody to read.

"...just because you hear what you want to hear (most high-end audio is placebo, beyond a point)..."

I personally find this statement along with some of the other statements in cranky's post offensive and will not hesitate to take it to the next level. No apologies.

And the next level is name-calling and using abusive language. Beautiful! What cranky has said is a very valid issue, I think. What cranky has written about is actually an interesting subject in psychiatry. People including specialists can have a debate about it. But your preferred method is going to the 'next level'. cranky is having sleepless nights waiting for your well-worded apology.

One of my mentors taught me the following and it's the primary axiom I live by:

"Its not what you don't know that hurts you. It's what you don't know but think is so"

I only hope you know what is meant by an 'axiom'. It seems to me that you apply the axiom to everybody else except anybody who may have questioned your conclusions. Usually an axiom assumes some conditions and under those conditions the axiom is valid. It seems to me that the condition of your axiom excludes you.

I find this forum full of wrong opinion and intellectual laziness where conclusions are offered with no experience. Look at your own post where within 24 hours you decided to declare me as something with no knowledge.

No I have NOT declared you as somebody with no knowledge. Please read my posts carefully. There is no reason to be in a 'tizzy' just because somebody in a 'forum full of wrong opinion and intellectual laziness" is expressing doubts on your behavior more than anything else.

As for exotic cables, I never said anything about exotic cables. To me there are cables and then there are better cables. And better is defined by how they sound and not how much they cost. And better sound is what gets closer to the sound of an unamplified acoustic instrument. This standard was set by the absolute sound magazine (and I follow it) which puts objectively heard sound quality above all other criteria. Its great reading.

You did not explicitly say it, true, but you effectively implied it either in price or in quality. If you go back to your own posts, you shall discover it yourself. When somebody says he has tried a lot of good cables, and beyond a point does not find it improving anything, and then you suggest to him an upgrade and even better cables, then what else are you implying?

Per your own post you state:

"one needs good quality power and obviously you need a power cord of decent quality with decent plugs and sockets"

So if you say there could be a difference in badly constructed cables and "decent" cable (and what exactly is a decent cable, sir?) why would you discount that there could be even better materials that could result in a cable better than your "decent cable". Is this a conceit on your part so you can fit the world into your predefined version of it? Very dangerous sir. Go listen to different power cables.

Again, you are saying this without any basis. In my first post, I only stated and summarized other people's observations and opinions and then wanted more explanations from you. It was necessary because I do not know anything about your audio system or music preferences. Please read my post carefully and then tell me if you find me expressing my opinion in favor of you or some of the other people. In addition, I just requested you to be a bit civil in your language. My second post was an expression of outrage protesting the use of foul language by you.

Yes, things can in general be good and better. The question is how much? This is also something I have already raised in my first post. In math lingo, there are terms like "exponential saturation" and "logarithmic approach". What this means is that a particular quality reaches its asymptotic value at an infinitely large value of its argument, but it reaches 80 -90% of that asymptotic value at a small and finite value of the argument. While on one hand, the purpose of a forum like this is to find out as much information and observation as there is available with respect to audio and video products, it is also true that one is always working within a budget and a certain perimeter of taste. The purpose of the forum is very much to find an optimal solution within these restrictions. If one finds a reasonable solution with a 1K-2K power cord for his tastes and that person then proclaims he is happy with his system and subscribes to the view that he does not need a 1 Lakh power cord, you do not need to attack him with your choice words for that assertion. At the same time you also have every right to say what you believe in and why, but all that has to be done without offending anybody. And that was seriously lacking in your posts not only in this thread but also in another thread I read on TTs.

Square_wave has given an excellent description of an objectively perceived difference in cable. I could not have said it any better.

Please remember, square_wave did not have to use any foul language to share his experience and views.

As for equipment I have, I run an analogue system with a VPI turntable and souther linear tracking arm and shelter 501 cartridge. I have a melos tube preamp feeding a quad amp and quad speakers. I run hand built power cables, monster power conditioners (its the only good thing monster makes as their speaker and interconnect cables suck) and FMS cables for interconnects and speaker cable.

Is this a quad tube power amp or their 909 or 99 power amp? Are they monoblocks? I have recently auditioned a quad 909 stereo power amp.
Which speakers would they be? Quad has a range from 11L2 currently to way up there, although I have heard only the lowest range ones recently. Long time ago, I have heard one of their electrostatic speakers.

How about your system?

Well, my system is no secret to most people in this forum, because I make frequent reference to them in many of my posts and at least in a few places the whole system is described. For you though, I will again reveal it here:

Sources: CA Azur 740c CDP,, Dual CS5000 TT, Onkyo single cassette deck (cannot remember the model no, but an entry level decent one, until recently used to have a 3 head, bias-controlling Aiwa single cassette deck bought 20 years ago, but that has unfortunately died). Macbook pro connected to the DAC portion of the 740c CDP through an optical cable, Sony PCM D50 professional recorder and player (records up to 24 bit/96 KHz).

Graphic Equalizer: Vintage Kenwood GE5020 (bought in 1989)

Amp: Vintage HK 6300 (bought in 1989), one entry level Nad amp (currently in a month or so, I am going to upgrade to a Leben tube amp, most probably).

Speakers: Canton Karat 60 (top of the line of the Karat line, handcrafted, bought in 1989, 22 - 30K Hz, 93.4 db, 4 Ohm).

Interconnects: QED, Speaker cable: VDH, both mid-fi level.

As for your comment about dinyaar's Bryston and Accuphase amps, I owned a Bryston 3B PRO amp for many years. Bryston makes some great stuff. I know of but have never heard Accuphase.
[/QUOTE]

I have no comment on this. Good for you to have owned the Brystons.

I have not left any portion of this particular post of yours. But nowhere, I see even remotely an attempt to answer my queries with regard to the changes or improvements by using a better or "exotic" cable. You have left that to square_wave's observations. How about you? Can you say with a bit of detail what you have observed with specific reference to some music.

How about a response on the music part. I said in my post I was expecting a technical answer in this part, as anybody knows some music appreciation is necessary to understand the differences. Music is such a deep subject and unless it is clear to me what is it that you are after (it depends on your taste, experience and level of appreciation), how would I know the value of what you are saying. You implied above that you are after the exact reproduction of unamplified music. That carries no information for me. Let me give you an example. If I am looking for the exact tonalities of Nikhil Banerjee's sitar, one has to listen to him in the privacy of a room (without electronics), even there there would be room acoustics that can change the frequency spectrum and tonal quality to some extent. Very few people have heard music like that. Then, how do you know what you are after. That criterion is only some vague indication, one cannot go by such criteria when one is talking about debatably small audible differences.

Look, at the end, let me just say, you can certainly voice your opinions and observations on equipments and related things, without the name calling and the insults (your self-proclaimed 'next level'). But you have not given us any detailed and precise evidence to back up your claims with regard to power cables and also with regard to assertions like "intellectual laziness". Looks like you have developed this habit of name-calling as a method of self-defence and cannot get out of it. I have taken each sentence of your post and have shown you that you have no claims that you have backed up so far. In addition you have been utterly abusive in your earlier posts, and I can guarantee you that even if I can agree with you on any content (although looks very unlikely at this point of time), I will protest that kind of behavior.
 
I have heard about this. I have not tried this, so cant really comment.
I follow a logical progression with my tweaks. This I learned from the gentleman in my earlier post.

Some tweaks will not have audible effects unless your system and setup and your ears are ready for it

For example I could not make out the difference between interconnects when I had my pioneer amp running my wharfedale speakers.
When I upgraded to the Nad amp, I could make out some differences but nothing great. With my current setup I can make out differences in all cables.
But I still do not have a dedicated room with reasonable treatment. The speakers also do not have the reccomended amount of space around them. These are much bigger problems than the subtle audible effects these kind of tweaks can make.

It is very difficult to see an ant when you have an elephant blocking the view ;)

I have sat in perfectly treated rooms with optimally setup systems where I could hear differences between the materials of the cones and type of isolation under a cd player. But ALAS , such things are not audible in my less than perfect room.
The upgrades are going to be in the following order:
1. Bigger room.
2. Source.
3. Reasonable treatment.
4. Power conditioning.
5. Other tweaks which makes subtle differences and remove that last veil :)
 
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RSUD, that last one was very interesting and funny. I will obviously have to try it and find out myself if it works or not but strings from the ceiling holding cables is something that is going to take some time for me to do....
Anyways your posts are interesting to read as long as they respect all forum members....

This tweek takes a level of proper system setup and education of ones ears (square_wave is spot on with his analysis here). If one can not discern cable differences in their system they will not hear this. This effect is far more subtle than cable changes.

I have many high-end aquaintances with systems that (should) have resolution far exceeding mine but they can not hear it. Its a combo of poor setup so the system is not doing all that it can and uneducated ears. Certainly try it though....

As for your "respect all forum members" comment, I see something very different going on here. It appears its okay to do obscured name calling. I'll comment on this later when I respond to Asit....
 
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I
It is very difficult to see an ant when you have an elephant blocking the view ;)

Good one :lol:. So very true and that is exactly what the problem is with most of our systems. The room and room acoustics are the biggest problem for my setup and many other setups I've heard.

Power is secondary and while I do notice a difference between an unbranded 30 rupee cable and a decent quality DIY cable, its not night and day. The transients become sharper, the leading and trailing edges are more prominent, the noise floor is quite a bit lower and the overall involvement is definitely better. It is definitely worth some money, but not a high priority big ticket item for me.
 
rsud - As Venkat mentioned in an earlier post, one of the cornerstones of this forum is civility and an amazing readiness to help. Mostly through exchange of opinion. And this opinion can be objective or subjective. For that matter what, in this Hifi business, is not subjective!

So, if Marsilians believes what he does, then he is entitled to. If I were you I would just take it that his ears are tuned that way. And that need not necessarily be a handicap - if you see what I mean. And if you read some of Cranky's posts in this forum you will know that he is not exactly a greenhorn in these matters.

One of the things I have realized after my admittedly very brief foray into this hobby is that the keener your ears are, the harder it is to be satisfied with your system. So, it works both ways. :)

Anyway, you seem to not be very enamoured of this forum. Maybe you can point out exactly what it is that irks you so that we can see if there is something that can be done about it. Lastly please feel free to express yourself. Just without stepping on too many toes in the process, if you can help it.

Cheers
 
rsud - As Venkat mentioned in an earlier post, one of the cornerstones of this forum is civility and an amazing readiness to help. Mostly through exchange of opinion. And this opinion can be objective or subjective. For that matter what, in this Hifi business, is not subjective!

So, if Marsilians believes what he does, then he is entitled to. If I were you I would just take it that his ears are tuned that way. And that need not necessarily be a handicap - if you see what I mean. And if you read some of Cranky's posts in this forum you will know that he is not exactly a greenhorn in these matters.

One of the things I have realized after my admittedly very brief foray into this hobby is that the keener your ears are, the harder it is to be satisfied with your system. So, it works both ways. :)

Anyway, you seem to not be very enamoured of this forum. Maybe you can point out exactly what it is that irks you so that we can see if there is something that can be done about it. Lastly please feel free to express yourself. Just without stepping on too many toes in the process, if you can help it.

Cheers

Thank you for your words here. While initially flummoxed by the posts going on in general in the various hifivision forums (I only stumbled upon this forum a couple of months ago) I am heartened to see that there are true high-end audiophiles in Indian and are part of this forum. I really appreciate these folks chiming in with their real experiences with power cable.

I think the points have been made on this thread for the folks who understand. For the ones who don't, as you have suggested, at least their lives are simpler. :eek:hyeah:

Time to move on...
 
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OK, I am going to stake my head in here ....

can both of you folks stop going after each other? Its high time you both get back to contributing productively where you can.
 
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