panditji
Well-Known Member
70 percent subsidy? Can you buy one for me as well and I will get it shipped to my address? I will pay you an additional 1 lakh for your help...I am serious...
Power plant PS AUDIO
- Thread starter Enkay78
- Start date
70 percent subsidy? Can you buy one for me as well and I will get it shipped to my address? I will pay you an additional 1 lakh for your help...I am serious...
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
Actually I don’t follow any definition (there is nothing like ASR definition) but what the current audio technology considers as objective parameters of a well engineered product. I rely on precision, performance and reliability.
And yes measurements tends to tell the engineering aspect.
Again let me reiterate : the OP is not an affront to your/our individual choices …..but rather a scathing perspective to manufacturers like PS Audio which lies through the teeth.
It’s upto individual whether to believe as accordingly.
amrutmhatre90
Well-Known Member
@Enkay78 this is off thread just a question,
if by any chance you have the moolah to get the Pearl Acoustics Sibelius. Will you try them then buy or check on the measurements and then decide ?
Asking cause, just a brief these speakers where in development for 3 years, have one single driver for both high freq and low freq.
Guess what, these speakers where designed by ears not any other measurements first then later they tested them.
These are made by Harley Lovegrove, who is a musician, recording engineer and a serious audiophile.
You seem to rely too much on measurements, not that its wrong. But measurements just tell one side of the story.
I certainly won't make comments or judge anything until I listen, see or feel and ofcourse try it out.
Be it anything, cars, bikes, amps, pre amps, DAC's or heck even speaker cables.
if by any chance you have the moolah to get the Pearl Acoustics Sibelius. Will you try them then buy or check on the measurements and then decide ?
Asking cause, just a brief these speakers where in development for 3 years, have one single driver for both high freq and low freq.
Guess what, these speakers where designed by ears not any other measurements first then later they tested them.
These are made by Harley Lovegrove, who is a musician, recording engineer and a serious audiophile.
You seem to rely too much on measurements, not that its wrong. But measurements just tell one side of the story.
I certainly won't make comments or judge anything until I listen, see or feel and ofcourse try it out.
Be it anything, cars, bikes, amps, pre amps, DAC's or heck even speaker cables.
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For a second you had me wonder who this mysterious Mullah (a Muslim learned in Islamic theology and sacred law) is. I think you meant to say Moolah (Money).
its a very valid point.
One buys a product assuming that a product has been well engineered and does what it says. In most industries this is true and the manufacturer is mandated to be true to promise in relevant areas ( yeah there still are "Aap ke toothpase mein namak hai lunacy)
In audio being such a minuscule and fragmented market there is severe lack of accountability to promise but again it is small . I remember an estimation of it as around 25B USD for all audio equipment which is almost 16 times smaller than the wine market which is also a very subjective market.
Again if we take just the High rez market of that , wont be surprised if its much less than 10% of the above
So it is a buyer beware market and people have to use some discretion in buying whether its looking at specs , measuring by ear or word of mouth.
If you consider objective measurements as the thing that matters to you the most, by all means that is your definition of good equipment. However I would urge you to look for alternate sources of data rather than just one. ASR has in the past been known to use cherry picked (manufacturer sourced) samples and their results dont always agree with other people using the same equipment.
There are other people who may consider something other than objective measurement as what matters to them most. This is a hobby and people listen to music for pleasure. Something that maximizes listening pleasure for a specific individual may not be the same thing that looks best on a graph. Remember most Harman research is meant for the average individual but in real life there are wide dispersions from the mean.
I think a few are missing the point of this thread. All that the OP is saying is that any claims by a company have to be backed up by data. Copy-writing for a product with a flowery vocabulary is easy.
In music, some learn theory, and some learn by ear. Those who learn theory and are able to read sheet music can understand a given musical piece just by reading it.
Proven theory is absolute, because there's only one way to interprete it. In the same vein, measurements are also absolute, It helps us make an educated decision.
But the funny aspect of audio is, that most of the sound quality is dictated by the room, this is where subjectivity kicks in. Bless us all for this conundrum! Most of us do not have a room with ideal acoustic conditions, and hence the to-and-fro between objectivity and subjectivity.
In music, some learn theory, and some learn by ear. Those who learn theory and are able to read sheet music can understand a given musical piece just by reading it.
Proven theory is absolute, because there's only one way to interprete it. In the same vein, measurements are also absolute, It helps us make an educated decision.
But the funny aspect of audio is, that most of the sound quality is dictated by the room, this is where subjectivity kicks in. Bless us all for this conundrum! Most of us do not have a room with ideal acoustic conditions, and hence the to-and-fro between objectivity and subjectivity.
Panditji you got a point but this is just a debate bait & will go no where, if taken with humour then it's fun but sometimes it goes personal with few members. I just have fun now with these measurement thingies but still abit old fashion & believe in auditions more then anything for speakers, amps, cables & even TVs. If i like what i hear/see then i don't give a .. about how it measures, thats just me
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kapvin
Well-Known Member
Solar powered air conditioned room.I knew this was a bait for a useless debate,
Mr @Enkay78 has started the fire & now is chilling in the air conditioned room
totally off topic, I would really be keen to understand from @Enkay78 how he went about getting renewable power. If he would write a post about it in the relate to sub forum, I am sure it would be helpful for a lot of people.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Have you tried underwater? Beats doing it flying!<snip> then i don't give a flying f**k about how it measures, thats just me
Did you mean flying like a bird or flying in an airplane?
panditji
Well-Known Member
And I agree completely.. It should be taken with humour as everyone is entitled to their opinion and making fun of rich people with extra cash is one of the favourite pastimes of us belonging to the middle class... I also believe in hearing for myself but that's because I don't understand measurements..Panditji you got a point but this is just a debate bait & will go no where, if taken with humour then it's fun but sometimes it goes personal with few members. I just have fun now with these measurement thingies but still abit old fashion & believe in auditions more then anything for speakers, amps, cables & even TVs. If i like what i hear/see then i don't give about how it measures, thats just me
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ASR is a little biased review site in my opinion, but in this product case though, one review by Stereophile was quite humourous to say the least.
Here is how it starts....
As good as the system had sounded with the P5 (I guess the earlier version), with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. With no change in volume setting, the sound was more dynamic. This was particularly noticeable with audiophile blockbuster CDs….
In my initial bout of listening, amplification was provided by the PS Audio Stellar M700s, and as it's likely that PSA "voiced" those amps with a Power Plant in their reference system, the P12 and M700 might be expected to act synergistically.
Voicing an amplifier using the company's power conditioner in the chain. Pinnacle of a paid review in my opinion.
Here is how it starts....
As good as the system had sounded with the P5 (I guess the earlier version), with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. With no change in volume setting, the sound was more dynamic. This was particularly noticeable with audiophile blockbuster CDs….
In my initial bout of listening, amplification was provided by the PS Audio Stellar M700s, and as it's likely that PSA "voiced" those amps with a Power Plant in their reference system, the P12 and M700 might be expected to act synergistically.
Voicing an amplifier using the company's power conditioner in the chain
. Pinnacle of a paid review in my opinion.
kapvin
Well-Known Member
I know. But stereophile IMHO is the best of the bad ones. at least there is some measurement: so objectivity vs subjectivity. The others are sheer entertainment....ASR is a little biased review site in my opinion, but in this product case though, one review by Stereophile was quite humourous to say the least.
Here is how it starts....
As good as the system had sounded with the P5 (I guess the earlier version), with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. With no change in volume setting, the sound was more dynamic. This was particularly noticeable with audiophile blockbuster CDs….
In my initial bout of listening, amplification was provided by the PS Audio Stellar M700s, and as it's likely that PSA "voiced" those amps with a Power Plant in their reference system, the P12 and M700 might be expected to act synergistically.
Voicing an amplifier using the company's power conditioner in the chain
back on topic: almost all the audio components work on DC. so there is voltage conversion and rectification going on. dont know how switching PS works but my 12th class physics tell me that an LPS with a full wave rectifier and an adequate amount of capacitance should take care of most use cases. (else just add more capacitance) for a moment forget the ASR review and measurement, would not love to see the technical reasons as to why this should work. and benefit an expensive (and hopefully well designed) audio kit
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
@panditji
I actually defer in the perspective.
I don't think we middle class should be jealous of rich people. Anytime middle class can also become rich.
I am not denigrating any expensive/boutique gadgets. They can cost millions of dollar or even billions of dollars with unobtanium chips, transistors. They can.
My point is when these expenses are given a rationale for hyperperformance........which does not show up in measurements/evidences. That's where I wouldn't like to give credence to the device /manufacturers. These manufacturers then has the prime objective of rich profits rather than the ultra/hyper performance they espouse.
There has to be some rationale for the value chain system in this hobby. We can't be blind sheeps.
And for me the level of evidence or quality of evidence is poor when someone says there is difference or improvement of sonic qualities without the backing of solid measurements. That person may not even have a proper auditory acuity....as most of such persons are old and more than 50years old. The older they are there is a suspect of their hearing acumen.
Again in this forum, many members are forgetting that there are people like me who cannot avail opportunity of audition due to logistics/unavailability of products. So how can I hear it?
Whereas when engineering these products, the research and parameters have been established beyond any doubt.
HOw can a rely on audiophiliac like influencers who is a old guy perhaps 60years plus age whose hearing acuity is suspect - how can his recommendation be better than the spinorama of the speakers? (Just an eg)
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If the power supply of the component is designed well you do not really need this but that is rare and expensive. But for most equipment, it is not as good and thats the reason music sounds better in the night is not just due to ambient sound but also due to better power quality since most industrial equipment are offline.In the end it comes down to the quality of power. eg for those in Mumbai any of these are a waste. In bangalore it varies by locality/apartment complex.
I have found a regenerator working very well for a CD player and DAC. not just the quality of the power but also since it prevents the hash generated by the power supply back to the mains and hence into the Amp. But of course I use a 800USD Monarchy regenerator which works on the simple principle of amplifying a 50hz sinusoidal signal to a 150W power output.
AC motors in turntables are very susceptible to frequency and voltage variations and this is one area where a convertor can be useful. direct drives need not have that problem.
kapvin
Well-Known Member
Thanks. This is exactly my point. and what I struggle with. A good power supply should complete rectification i.e no trace of AC noise. (apart, obviously being able to supply the demanded voltage and current) So a poorly designed one will let some extraneous mains noise in. (as a seperate argument, many budget hifi manufacturers are able to get their power supply to give clean current to the audio sections, so it should not be really rocket science)
Now this product, even if it works as intended will just provide pure 50hz (or 60hz) power. but how does it help the poorly designed power supply defined above. because AFAIK, AC-DC is not a band stop function (i.e optimised at a particular frequency only), post full-wave rectification its a low pass filter, which should be largely frequency agnostic, (unless the AC frequency is going waaay below 50hz to say 10hz or so) so how would a pure sine wave improve the said poorly designed power supply.
finally to the product itself. what I read is that essentially a very high quality version of our sine wave invertor found in many Indian homes, except that those are line-interactive and this is fully online. So there should be 3 parts - AC-DC rectification; DC "purification" - Essentiall removing all noise and getting a steady DC supply and AC modulation. the last bit is key because the if the modulation isnt good, what's the point?
at the end of it all, with my limited understanding, I think it would be a lot easier to just work on the DC end with a better low pass (thats just a lot of capacitors, (or may be LC circuit?). I dont want to hijack the thread but this comes from a place of genuine curiosity and desire to learn. if you have any insight or want to correct my understnading, Please DM. I would welcome that
EDIT: Understand your point about AC motors and how this could be useful. I don't think the ASR review checked for that (or really dirty main supplies)
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Enkay78
Well-Known Member
My angst is why is that cost 5500 dollars for the negligible improvement of AC supply? I mean what are they marketing? And are they marketing with solid evidence to back their claims?
And why should we hobbyists lap up such products just because of flowery syntax and poetic influencers ?
Anyway that's my personal view. Like I have been saying - it's ones money....for all that matters one can spend whatever amount deem fit for the value one percieves.
And why should we hobbyists lap up such products just because of flowery syntax and poetic influencers ?
Anyway that's my personal view. Like I have been saying - it's ones money....for all that matters one can spend whatever amount deem fit for the value one percieves.
kapvin
Well-Known Member
what I realised after reading @arj's post is that in the review, it was not really tested against dirty power. 1.8% distortion of source power is actually pretty good, which means with a 110v power supply the sum of all harmonics and noise is less than 2v. better power than what most of us get at the socket. Maybe the results would be more stark with dirty power. Plus not seen the results on TTs that require AC power.
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