Power plant PS AUDIO

[Bloom@83]

My angst is why is that cost 5500 dollars for the negligible improvement of AC supply? I mean what are they marketing? And are they marketing with solid evidence to back their claims?


And why should we hobbyists lap up such products just because of flowery syntax and poetic influencers ?


Anyway that's my personal view. Like I have been saying - it's ones money....for all that matters one can spend whatever amount deem fit for the value one percieves.

But .. but who’s is forcing you to ?
I believe the price itself positions the product in the niche category of those people who don’t give too much of a damn how much it improves the SQ or not. It might ,or might not - the point is not very relevant for the target consumers in this respect I feel.
It has got more to do with pride of ownership, bragging rights and other intangible factors. IMO.

 

[Enkay78]

But .. but who’s is forcing you to ?
I believe the price itself positions the product in the niche category of those people who don’t give too much of a damn how much it improves the SQ or not. It might ,or might not - the point is not very relevant for the target consumers in this respect I feel.
It has got more to do with pride of ownership, bragging rights and other intangible factors. IMO.

There no need for forcing. I won't touch such products with a 100 feet barge pole


I am not disagreeing with your points about bragging rights.


Let's say I am sharing perspectives.

Something which interest me rather than flowery syntax is this

風立ちぬ-起风了 - L7Audiolab

访谈、随笔、观点

www.l7audiolab.com

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

My angst is why is that cost 5500 dollars for the negligible improvement of AC supply? I mean what are they marketing? And are they marketing with solid evidence to back their claims?

And why should we hobbyists lap up such products just because of flowery syntax and poetic influencers ?

Anyway that's my personal view. Like I have been saying - it's ones money....for all that matters one can spend whatever amount deem fit for the value one percieves.

It costs that much because it weighs 78 kgs

Add up the cost of that steel and aluminum. Plus 3 massive toroidal Transformers inside

As I've mentioned before, if you haven't tried it, then you should

And anyways, this will be my last post in this thread, as I don't believe in wasting my time converting people to realise the benefits ive had. When I know fully well they are not inclined. I will not state the reasons why

Something which interest me rather than flowery syntax is this

View attachment 67636

風立ちぬ-起风了 - L7Audiolab

访谈、随笔、观点

www.l7audiolab.com

Interestingly I was checking out reviews of the mola mola tambaqui, and after reading on a few sites, I ended up on the ASR site

Apparently the Topping D90 measures very close to this USD 13,4K dac as per ASR measurements. And there were tons of the usual bhakts claiming that anyone buying a mola mola is a fool, as the D90 users have very similar if not better sound quality at a 10th of the price.

Iam not one to state one way or the other as to which is better , as I haven't heard either of them. But I will maintain my decorum to not call any of them shit, because I can't afford them, or because it validates my decision to purchase something cheaper.

And the same applies to the subject of discussion here. The power plants. If you haven't tried them, or heard them in a system, there is no way you will know what they do

 

[lord_musik]

Interestingly I was checking out reviews of the mola mola tambaqui, and after reading on a few sites, I ended up on the ASR site

Apparently the Topping D90 measures very close to this USD 13,4K dac as per ASR measurements. And there were tons of the usual bhakts claiming that anyone buying a mola mola is a fool, as the D90 users have very similar if not better sound quality at a 10th of the price.

Iam not one to state one way or the other as to which is better , as I haven't heard either of them. But I will maintain my decorum to not call any of them shit, because I can't afford them, or because it validates my decision to purchase something cheaper.

And the same applies to the subject of discussion here. The power plants. If you haven't tried them, or heard them in a system, there is no way you will know what they do

ASR is full of folks who trust what’s on a piece of paper more than their own ears in a hobby where you do this whole thing with those two

 

[Enkay78]

Interestingly I was checking out reviews of the mola mola tambaqui, and after reading on a few sites, I ended up on the ASR site

Apparently the Topping D90 measures very close to this USD 13,4K dac as per ASR measurements. And there were tons of the usual bhakts claiming that anyone buying a mola mola is a fool, as the D90 users have very similar if not better sound quality at a 10th of the price.

Iam not one to state one way or the other as to which is better , as I haven't heard either of them. But I will maintain my decorum to not call any of them shit, because I can't afford them, or because it validates my decision to purchase something cheaper.

And the same applies to the subject of discussion here. The power plants. If you haven't tried them, or heard them in a system, there is no way you will know what they do

I completely understand your stand. And your belief. I am not trying to change that......not am I challenging your ears. (Golden or not )


Veterans like you are in a different game. However lesser mortals like me, tend to look for 'value of performance'. I am a cheapo - who seeks the best performance from the lowest of costs.

Electronics and audio technology has a well established decades of research. And most of the pro-world knows this as their basis of manufacturing.

The hi-fi world also knows the reasearch but tends to play them down as in this niche market, aesthetics, and subjectivity are more stronger marketing factors then pure audio fidelity. Hence the perpetuated myths and reliance on ears (which psychoacoustics has established the fallibility in many ways).

Humans prefer a certain curve of audiospectrum. This has been established by many studies and the research is very clear.

It's actually not a.mystery why hi-fi world is like this. There are huge profits to be reap from this market. There are billionaires who doesn't flinch to buy for 'their ego'.


Somehow I am baffled when these kind of discussion moors into personalised attacks. I only want some discussion of merits. And it is also a big enigma that instead of flaying manufacturers which lies through their teeth and asking their accountability and ethical practice, the discussion veers into personal experiences (the lack of it or abundance of it). I fear to imagine the application of notions of hi-fi in gun development.

And since some snarky remarks are made here, can I respectfully retort - no one is forced to comment on this thread. If one does not like the perspective shared, move on. As much as some of us revere high expensive devices as the better performing ones, the same reverie for us are those devices which are cheapo but perform better. For me my enthusiasm is that SOTA devices are comming to affordable levels....and one need not sell a kidney to own a SOTA amp/DAC for the love of the hobby.

 

[kapvin]

ASR is full of folks who trust what’s on a piece of paper more than their own ears in a hobby where you do this whole thing with those two

This is a very provocative statement. And the way I saw it, a bit Luddite in its direction. Are you saying that those measurements should not be trusted? or not relevant? Its an empirical fact that no matter what their public posture, a lot of “trust your ears, not measurements” manufacturers have cleaned up their act post a revealing ASR review. That gamut runs from Denon to Schiit and for the vast majority of people who are unable to try before buy it (ASR) provides a strong basis for shortlisting.

Anyway welcome to the forum. This was your first post. I hope your second will introduce you and your audio journey to us. Would love to get a sense of the depth of your perspective,

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I completely understand your stand. And your belief. I am not trying to change that......not am I challenging your ears. (Golden or not )

Veterans like you are in a different game. However lesser mortals like me, tend to look for 'value of performance'. I am a cheapo - who seeks the best performance from the lowest of costs.

Electronics and audio technology has a well established decades of research. And most of the pro-world knows this as their basis of manufacturing.

The hi-fi world also knows the reasearch but tends to play them down as in this niche market, aesthetics, and subjectivity are more stronger marketing factors then pure audio fidelity. Hence the perpetuated myths and reliance on ears (which psychoacoustics has established the fallibility in many ways).

Humans prefer a certain curve of audiospectrum. This has been established by many studies and the research is very clear.

It's actually not a.mystery why hi-fi world is like this. There are huge profits to be reap from this market. There are billionaires who doesn't flinch to buy for 'their ego'.

Somehow I am baffled when these kind of discussion moors into personalised attacks. I only want some discussion of merits. And it is also a big enigma that instead of flaying manufacturers which lies through their teeth and asking their accountability and ethical practice, the discussion veers into personal experiences (the lack of it or abundance of it). I fear to imagine the application of notions of hi-fi in gun development.

And since some snarky remarks are made here, can I respectfully retort - no one is forced to comment on this thread. If one does not like the perspective shared, move on. As much as some of us revere high expensive devices as the better performing ones, the same reverie for us are those devices which are cheapo but perform better. For me my enthusiasm is that SOTA devices are comming to affordable levels....and one need not sell a kidney to own a SOTA amp/DAC for the love of the hobby.

Haha....to be honest, iam in a no different game and neither a veteran

And to be honest, your interpretation of ASR measurements and his ridiculing the PS power plants without trying them out, is what got my goat

And I only keep posting in this thread, because I don't want others to think that power conditionng is not important. In this stupid hobby, everything matters actually

This is a very provocative statement. And the way I saw it, a bit Luddite in its direction. Are you saying that those measurements should not be trusted? or not relevant? Its an empirical fact that no matter what their public posture, a lot of “trust your ears, not measurements” manufacturers have cleaned up their act post a revealing ASR review. That gamut runs from Denon to Schiit and for the vast majority of people who are unable to try before buy it (ASR) provides a strong basis for shortlisting.

Anyway welcome to the forum. This was your first post. I hope your second will introduce you and your audio journey to us. Would love to get a sense of the depth of your perspective,

As someone once said, chemical analysis can never decide which wine is better. Thus, remains ASR measurements too

So there is always enough gear, which doesn't garner his praise, and can still sound stunning. If I were to believe him blindly, no one needs anything more than a Topping dac, with a Topping power amp, till they come out with a Topping speaker in due time

 

[arj]

My angst is why is that cost 5500 dollars for the negligible improvement of AC supply? I mean what are they marketing? And are they marketing with solid evidence to back their claims?

And why should we hobbyists lap up such products just because of flowery syntax and poetic influencers ?


Anyway that's my personal view. Like I have been saying - it's ones money....for all that matters one can spend whatever amount deem fit for the value one percieves.

Every hobby has unobtanium priced articles and thats how it is. It is in our nature to want something exclusive in everything from jewellery to phones and there is always someone selling one at a high price. if you are arguing agains this, then you are arguing against human nature itself.
One can argue that even Diamonds are just shiny stones with artificially inflated value due to controlled supply by a monopolistic enterprise but that does not mean people will not buy it even if they know it !

There are other cheaper products, in fact a pure sinewave Online double converting UPS also does the same albeit with more noise and you can get one of 1 KVA for 20K or less and will give you 500W of decent power if you really need one.

Let us assume people buying it either have the intelligence to perceive value for their money or so much money that they dont care about the value it brings in.

Thanks. This is exactly my point. and what I struggle with. A good power supply should complete rectification i.e no trace of AC noise. (apart, obviously being able to supply the demanded voltage and current) So a poorly designed one will let some extraneous mains noise in. (as a seperate argument, many budget hifi manufacturers are able to get their power supply to give clean current to the audio sections, so it should not be really rocket science)
</Snip>

Yes thats true, but again will not be surprised if more of pricey, some of the mid price and almost all the entry level audiophile equipment come with compromised power supplies. In fact while evaluating components I do try to evaluate the power supply as well and thats one of the components which you cannot judge by your ear if you do not hear it at your own place. Some designers pay extra attention to make sure it comes in with good transformers and caps and also is isolated from the rest of the circuitry

Now there are couple of elements in a power supply into the house. While there is the main signal which is the 23V 50Hz which can vary due to industrial loads. i had measured it once couple of years ago and in bangalore found it to vary from 190-240 V and 48-50Hz

Now this by itself should not, in my opinion matter that much if the PSU of the component is good enough. in fact i found a regenerator to rob the music of microdynamics if used with an amp or preamp and prefer them connected to the mains directly. But this may not be true for all components depending on the power quality in that area.

another element or "Hash" ie a lot of higher frequency RFI/EMI induced current. while these would be filtered out by the larger step down transformers, the ones within that area can be affected especially due to motors and SMPS from computers. this is more true within the house. Digital source equipment seems to be particularly affected by this and cleaner power by isolating them does give some benefits.

The more one reads the more you realize how complex the impact of the power we feed can be and that there is not one right answer for everyone.

 

[kapvin]

As someone once said, chemical analysis can never decide which wine is better. Thus, remains ASR measurements too

So there is always enough gear, which doesn't garner his praise, and can still sound stunning. If I were to believe him blindly, no one needs anything more than a Topping dac, with a Topping power amp, till they come out with a Topping speaker in due time

I don’t think that’s his point. he Is very clear and explicitly states that beyond a certain point, a well engineered product will be aurally indistinguishable from others in the same conditions. Most blind tests would prove that.

What I understand is his point is that expensive premium products should not under perform on basic parameters, when cheap products can get it right.

The rest is on personal belief And audio goals. For eg, look at my signature, the all components of the Headphone Systems inthe first line and second line have been reviewed on ASR. For most part, the products in the 2nd line did better than those in the first, at a fraction of the the cost. What I do listen to regularly, is the 1st line system, happy that my ears validate the test, that any issues are below my level of audibility. (And my subjectivity that is sounds better).

If I had purchased a Schiit Yggdrasil instead of the holo audio spring, I might have a different experience..

 

[aeroash]

My angst is why is that cost 5500 dollars for the negligible improvement of AC supply? I mean what are they marketing? And are they marketing with solid evidence to back their claims?

And why should we hobbyists lap up such products just because of flowery syntax and poetic influencers ?

Anyway that's my personal view. Like I have been saying - it's ones money....for all that matters one can spend whatever amount deem fit for the value one percieves.

Products should never be gauged by its price. Who is to say what the right price for a particular product is? Just because something costs way above products of similar abilities doesn't automatically make it a better product. But there will always be buyers, it's just business!

The world isn't idealistic, no matter how much we want it to be. People will be conned one way or the other. We have various sources like ASR, YouTube, in-numerous forums, research papers, articles, opinions, etc to study, enquire, and make an informed decision. While most things are a perfect science, It is the variables that make things complicated.

 

[Enkay78]

Every hobby has unobtanium priced articles and thats how it is. It is in our nature to want something exclusive in everything from jewellery to phones and there is always someone selling one at a high price. if you are arguing agains this, then you are arguing against human nature itself.
One can argue that even Diamonds are just shiny stones with artificially inflated value due to controlled supply by a monopolistic enterprise but that does not mean people will not buy it even if they know it !

There are other cheaper products, in fact a pure sinewave Online double converting UPS also does the same albeit with more noise and you can get one of 1 KVA for 20K or less and will give you 500W of decent power if you really need one.

Let us assume people buying it either have the intelligence to perceive value for their money or so much money that they dont care about the value it brings in.

@arj

I totally agree with that perception. And yes it's part of being human beings. One time billions of dollars were put into rocket technology. Then company like SpaceX comes. The point is this:

If the Kimberly diamond is being sold with a certain proclamation of purity which is found true by third party.....well then the seller is true and can ask what he wants as price.

But if he sells a synthetic diamond but proclaims them as diamond from a pure natural ore from Kepler ......and on third party testing found to be synthetic.

See I have no qualms about the high prices of PS AUDIO/McIntosh/Accuphase etc. It's not the price. But if a new product costing 5x less than it but performing better. Its always a welcome thing for the industry and hobby. But if accuphase argue that their amps is the best ....but not backed by evidence.

Funnily it's us consumer who fights more on this. Every manufacturer knows what are measurements and how they manufacture. They also know that marketing is a lucrative sector in a highly subjective area like hi-fi.

Products should never be gauged by its price. Who is to say what the right price for a particular product is? Just because something costs way above products of similar abilities doesn't automatically make it a better product. But there will always be buyers, it's just business!

The world isn't idealistic, no matter how much we want it to be. People will be conned one way or the other. We have various sources like ASR, YouTube, in-numerous forums, research papers, articles, opinions, etc to study, enquire, and make an informed decision. While most things are a perfect science, It is the variables that make things complicated.

But to tame the naughty ones, their emperors clothes needs to be removed.

They have to be made accountable.

That's for the sake of the health of the hobby.

Anyway I am beginning to see the tectonic shift from Chinese markets towards hifi and AV.

JVL which caters to USA markets sells their flagships laser projectors at ~19 lakhs. Me I am buying the Mi Laser Cinema 2 (the world's first Dolby vision certified laser projector with 2 laser sources) from Xiaomi which will cost me Rs 1.5 lakhs including a 120inch ALR screen. Because I know the difference between these projectors will be hardly 5% in PQ. And I am not millionaires like the Americans.

 

[arj]

I don’t think that’s his point. he Is very clear and explicitly states that beyond a certain point, a well engineered product will be aurally indistinguishable from others in the same conditions. Most blind tests would prove that.

This is where it is wrong. it will rarely be.

A well engineered product does not mean it will sound the same. same way as different well engineered cars will not feel the same while driving.

See I have no qualms about the high prices of PS AUDIO/McIntosh/Accuphase etc. It's not the price. But if a new product costing 5x less than it but performing better........its always a welcome thing for the industry and hobby. But if accuphase argue that their amps is the best ....but not backed by evidence..............

I get what you are trying to say, the point perhaps is the person who is buying it may be paying only 20% of the value for the sound quality. the rest of the 80% may be for the brand and the feeling of exclusivity. so he is still getting what he is paying for..while most of us will be happy buying 1/5th of the price for one which might still give the value but not the same bragging rights.

Going back to cars, the BMW X1 will have the same or lesser ride quality as a Toyota innova but in terms of brand value perception etc is far higher. There are people buying both and happy with their choice and both are very well engineered products !

 

[aeroash]

But to tame the naughty ones, their emperors clothes needs to be removed.

I fully agree with you. All that PS Audio had to do was publish their measurements, and the methods used to measure the same.

 

[Enkay78]

This is where it is wrong. it will rarely be.

A well engineered product does not mean it will sound the same. same way as different well engineered cars will not feel the same while driving.



I get what you are trying to say, the point perhaps is the person who is buying it may be paying only 20% of the value for the sound quality. the rest of the 80% may be for the brand and the feeling of exclusivity. so he is still getting what he is paying for..while most of use will be happy buying 1/5th of the price for one which might still give the value but not the same bragging rights.

Going back to cars, the BMW X1 will have the same or lesser ride quality as a Toyota innova but in terms of brand value perception etc is far higher. There are people buying both and happy with their choice and both are very well engineered products !

Yes. But BMW claims there is the best.....that's where the problem lies. Brand value is different. That's what marketing is.

But this does not mean that everything that BMW does is justified . In a sense they always play down their recalls.

 

[aeroash]

Yes. But BMW claims there is the best.....that's where the problem lies. Brand value is different. That's what marketing is.

But this does not mean that everything that BMW does is justified . In a sense they always play down their recalls.

This is simple. There are two types of consumers, those who look for Exclusivity, and those who look for Value for Money.
Just because a higher price is paid quality isn't guaranteed!

Every company claims they're the best. It means nothing. BMW is great when everything works great, until it stops working!

 

[IndianEars]

A point I would like to make:

The review is of a particular model (and piece).

We should not extrapolate this for all PS Audio regens

 

[Enkay78]

A point I would like to make:

The review is of a particular model (and piece).

We should not extrapolate this for all PS Audio regens

True.

That's why consumer should ask for evidence.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I don’t think that’s his point. he Is very clear and explicitly states that beyond a certain point, a well engineered product will be aurally indistinguishable from others in the same conditions. Most blind tests would prove that.

What I understand is his point is that expensive premium products should not under perform on basic parameters, when cheap products can get it right.

The rest is on personal belief And audio goals. For eg, look at my signature, the all components of the Headphone Systems inthe first line and second line have been reviewed on ASR. For most part, the products in the 2nd line did better than those in the first, at a fraction of the the cost. What I do listen to regularly, is the 1st line system, happy that my ears validate the test, that any issues are below my level of audibility. (And my subjectivity that is sounds better).

If I had purchased a Schiit Yggdrasil instead of the holo audio spring, I might have a different experience..

Happy to know that you are happy

To be honest nothing else matters

This should ideally be my last post in this thread, so goodbye too

True.

That's why consumer should ask for evidence.

Or buy toppings for the rest of their life as they seem to set the Benchmark at ASR measurements

And did you listen to the minidsp SHD by any chance, which got a stellar rating from ASR again

 

[liverpool_for_life]

This was your first post.

Under this pseudonym. The writing style, the dig at ASR and the narcissistic sounding pseudonym which also suggests a liking for music are strongly suggestive of another FM. No way for me to prove it, of course. Just a hunch.

 

[Enkay78]

Or buy toppings for the rest of their life as they seem to set the Benchmark at ASR measurements

And did you listen to the minidsp SHD by any chance, which got a stellar rating from ASR again

I am scratching my head.


Is this comment to be considered before your "last post" and "goodbye"?