Power plant PS AUDIO

[arj]

But the science of audio reproduction has evolved so much that we can can with confidence say we have achieve the State of Art reproduction vis a vis the audible spectrum. Unfortunately we mix the ART with the SCIENCE and try to explain the already proven technology/reasearch with heresays. Medicine also used to have these huge biases......but currently RCTs are being done which are slowly slowly peeling away what we thought right/wrong with power of statistics and level of evidence.

I think joshua answered this one below.
Idea is not to mix Art and science. Art is what we hear and science is how the Art it is reproduced. the question here is do we know enough to Measure Art completely. Am sure the answer is a No as in the end we all rely on both measurements and listening . How much one relies in each is what is being discussed and where there is a difference in opnion.

in the end its just that, an opinion for either side.

Assuming or believing current science can explain everything is one of the great fallacies and conceitedness of science.

Designing and evaluating audio gear necessarily involves objective and subjective methodologies.

Totally agree. Science progresses only because true scientists continuously question whats known and hence find something new. Newton did that first and then Einstein did that to some of newtons, but by that questioning they built it further and better with the thought that there is more to it that known.

I remember a discussion with @prem . In the 60s/70s Audio was the centerstage of a home and the greatest and best minds worked in that audio industry which gave us an amazing foundation and the biggest advances in sound quality were made then. Since then Video etc and now AI and energy is where these minds go . Made a lot of sense.

Not that we do not have good minds in audio or there are no improvement/ research but with such a minuscule fragmented market where the majority of people define good sound very differently, doubt if much new research happens. a DAC is perhaps the one area where lot of advances are made. Maybe amplifiers as well in the quest of better and Efficiency/size as well.

Eg I still dont know how Timbre of sound is measured.

 

[keith_correa]

Eg I still dont know how Timbre of sound is measured.

One cannot measure it. That is because a flawed organ named the Ear is involved. Timbre is an auditory sensation and is one of the things bandied about by many to "prove" that science has not learnt to measure everything. Yet!

 

[ssf]

What I've realized is that the "objectivists" now can hold their own and for that, I'm glad. In times gone by, the few who "dared" to speak out were bulldozed into submission by the so called other camp. No longer! We need strong opinionated people on both sides who can articulate logically, make senseful arguments and be polite all at the same time. I see that slowly happening and I'm thrilled. In the end, we all learn provided we keep an open mind and don't shut things out just because it doesn't fall within the boundaries of our belief system. Keep at it guys!

@keith_correa has stated what I wanted to say but could not. Strong arguments and discussions should be encouraged rather than asking for a thread lock fearing that it would go south. (Requested with a good intention, no doubt) If at all, the discussion does have indications of going south, members can gently remind the participants to keep it civil.

I would definitely benefit from passionate discussions and I am sure others would too. These discussions amuses me no doubt but at the same time also makes my otherwise dull brain to open up a bit.

Please keep the civil discussions going, passionate or otherwise.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

Haha....I just mentioned that I perceive a very noticable improvement. And you want to dismiss it again

You haven't heard one, and I use one....so I win

Probably “difference” ; improvement” is subjective to different ears

 

[aeroash]

where the majority of people define good sound very differently.

Just as Art, many are oblivious to what good sound is, including myself. It’s only when one is taught what to look for, do they learn to truly appreciate the details. This is also the reason it is difficult to go by anyones’ opinion, unless you know the person and their understanding, knowledge, taste, and experience, can you trust them.

An audio enthusiast (I’m consciously omitting the word audiophile, because I can’t stand it anymore. It’s like the time when whoever owned a DSLR was called a photographer) when asked to define a speaker he would regurgitate words like detailed, wide soundstage, blah blah... just because he heard a ride cymbal in the corner somewhere. How many of us have the experience of listening to musical instruments, live, in person, without amplification (acoustic instruments), to understand how a particular instrument should truly sound? This is Timbre, one which you cannot measure, but sub consciously know how an instrument is supposed to sound like.

I'm not aware if something like this exists, but, just like Art appreciation classes, we should have Sound appreciation classes.

 

[arj]

One cannot measure it. That is because a flawed organ named the Ear is involved. Timbre is an auditory sensation and is one of the things bandied about by many to "prove" that science has not learnt to measure everything. Yet!

I guess since timbre is a combination of harmonics with time for attack and decay and for a speaker this is what separates a guitar from a banjo or any other instrument . I am sure it can be measured. Wont be surprised if the science is there Just that no one has shown the intent to measure it since its such a small market who would use it.


Actually the point I am trying to make is all of us have a combination of Subjectivism & Objectivism some more of one and less of the other etc. you cant be one camp completely .

Its primarily that some like to look at measurements themselves and other might depend on those they trust. perhaps the only difference between the two groups !

 

[keith_correa]

I guess since timbre is a combination of harmonics with time for attack and decay and for a speaker this is what separates a guitar from a banjo or any other instrument.

It's a perceived SQ. The perception arrives from a combination of many attributes, some of which are what you mention and there are others too which can be individually measured. But, the end perception which is timbre cannot be. At least, not that I know of.

 

[arj]

It's a perceived SQ. The perception arrives from a combination of many attributes, some of which are what you mention and there are others too which can be individually measured. But, the end perception which is timbre cannot be. At least, not that I know of.

Without making it into me as an objectivist and you as a subjectivist, if it can be heard by the brain, it can be measured

but again the point is below

Actually the point I am trying to make is all of us have a combination of Subjectivism & Objectivism some more of one and less of the other etc. you cant be one camp completely .

Its primarily that some like to look at measurements themselves and other might depend on those they trust. perhaps the only difference between the two groups !

 

[keith_correa]

Without making it into me as an objectivist and you as a subjectivist, if it can be heard by the brain, it can be measured

It's the same with imaging, sound depth, sound height etc. They cannot be measured because they are perceptions/interpretations resulting from other attributes. Individual attributes that contribute towards these can be measured. Same for timbre.

but again the point is below

Yes, I got the point but timbre was mentioned and even though besides the point, I feel compelled to attempt to dispel the tiring way it is often incorrectly used to justify another point.

 

[arj]

It's the same with imaging, sound depth, sound height etc. They cannot be measured because they are perceptions/interpretations resulting from other attributes. Individual attributes that contribute towards these can be measured. Same for timbre.

These are very room/setup specific..no use in measuring and will not help in anything to evaluate an equipment

Anyway the point of timbre was only to highlight the below. the original recording has it and if its not there some equipment is messing it up.

Actually the point I am trying to make is all of us have a combination of Subjectivism & Objectivism some more of one and less of the other etc. you cant be one camp completely .

If it cannot be measured now thats just a fact but if it could make every component evaluation a lot more simple and would prove ears right/wrong.

 

[keith_correa]

These are very room/setup specific

Of course, yes, it is room specific but even specific to a room, these cannot be measured.

..no use in measuring and will not help in anything to evaluate an equipment

There is absolute use IF this can be detected in measurements. Setting up speakers right for a room is awfully tough and involves a lot of monkeying around. Of course it will not help in evaluating equipment but that was never the point.

 

[arj]

There is absolute use IF this can be detected in measurements. Setting up speakers right for a room is awfully tough and involves a lot of monkeying around. Of course it will not help in evaluating equipment but that was never the point.

Sorry did not get this .My perspective on the measured value of this being useless is as if you can hear/perceive it you dont need the measurement and if you cant hear it, then measuring it will not give you any benefit

Unless you are able to get some measurements on how its supposed to be in the original content and are comparing with that but thats very unlikely.

 

[jls001]

Of course, yes, it is room specific but even specific to a room, these cannot be measured.

Use ears

I once heard a fairly well-regarded pair of speakers with horn-loaded tweeters from a big speaker brand at a showroom. The timbre was so off that snare drum sounded like the skin was made of sheet metal. Every other instrument had a metallic tinge too. I never bothered to check how that pair of speakers measured.

Since the harmonics of instruments are unique and it is the set of harmonics that makes a, say a guitar, a guitar, I'm guessing that there will be ways of recording an instrument and comparing it against a library of already recorded sound from similar instruments. How well the recording under test matches the library ought to "measure" how well timbre is reproduced. The reverse is regularly used for synthesizing sounds of acoustic musical instruments as well as inventing new electronic instrument sounds.

 

[Kannan]

How well the recording under test matches the library ought to "measure" how well timbre is reproduced

I think it also depends on the skill of the player and the instrument's tuning apart from the recording.
This is especially evident in live shows. I have heard some Carnatic performances where the timbre of the sound from the same mridangam played by two different musicians sounds a little different.

I used to have a friend (very skilled drummer) during my Mumbai days whose impact was different depending on the blood condition. If pure he was articuate, perfect which was often boring, but often when curdled with the right amount of amrit, he was breathtaking and could get our feet tapping. Now dont ask me if my blood condition was respectively pure or curdled

 

[Enkay78]

 

[keith_correa]

Amir, on the YouTube video sounds good on my system so I guess if it sounds good, I should believe him, right?

 

[Analogous]

I fully agree with you. All that PS Audio had to do was publish their measurements, and the methods used to measure the same.

I found this:

PowerPlant 15 – PS Audio

www.psaudio.com

Similar spec sheets are available on their website for other items.
No mention of methods used to measure them. But that’s for parallel industries like ASR etc to verify, publish and hold them accountable ?

Naim also has a range of expensive power supply units that Naim fans love and swear by.
Even the more economical Digione signature (20k) has Allo Shanti power supply unit (for the clean power board) that costs Rs. 8000

After a quick glance through the 9 pages (!) I understand:
PS audio (many of) products are high priced.
Some people don’t like this, others do and the rest mostly don’t care.
Life is unfair.

Amir’s YouTube review of the PSaudio P12 gets interesting from the 33 minute mark. He asserts these devices do nothing or make things worse… does this include Stabilisers, power conditioners, UPS?
So, I am now wondering if a clean power supply with pure sine wave form improves SQ or makes it sterile/boring/worse as some claim???

 

[arj]

So, I am now wondering if a clean power supply with pure sine wave form improves SQ or makes it sterile/boring/worse as some claim???

I had written before..ie for me regenerators do not work for any equipment except for digital sources. in the Amp it makes the sound lose dynamics

 

[Analogous]

I had written before..ie for me regenerators do not work for any equipment except for digital sources. in the Amp it makes the sound lose dynamics

Sorry, I missed that post.
A related question: Do these devices (regenerators) protect equipment from electrical surges ?
I two pieces of equipment damaged in the past year and I was told it was due to power surges.
The irony was that one was a APC double conversion UPS!

 

[arj]

Sorry, I missed that post.
A related question: Do these devices (regenerators) protect equipment from electrical surges ?
I two pieces of equipment damaged in the past year and I was told it was due to power surges.
The irony was that one was a APC double conversion UPS!

Not aware of that but from your experience it seems to do so in a suicidal way !