Projector Issues

[santhosh]

So you won't steal a pencil or a diamond, why? Beacuse its wrong? No, of course not, you won't steal beacuse you would get caught.

Not trying to be a Mahatma or whoever, but I wouldn't steal because it is unethical. Would you?

Download are easy to use is an excuse, the fact is that if there was a possibility of getting caught then we won't do it. This is the fact, so stop preaching that we actually want to pay for it.

I am not supporting downloads here. But fact is that downloads are easy, on demand and immediate as there is no human interaction. I don't have to preach nor prove anything to you. I am clear in my stand that I wouldn't mind paying for services that I use. No pretence here. BTW, what makes you think that renting a movie from a library is legal?

Same way, politicians are corrupt beacuse they can get away with it. Thats it.

Duh!! What was I saying now?

 

[sanjay0864]

So you won't steal a pencil or a diamond, why? Beacuse its wrong? No, of course not, you won't steal beacuse you would get caught.

Absolutely not. I would not steal the pencil or the diamond not because I may get caught, but simply because it is morally and ethically wrong to do so by mine and society's standards. In fact I would also not steal, because it would also mean that if we all were to start stealing things, then the world as we know it would cease to exist and there would be total anarchy. You may feel otherwise and it's good you have the courage to publicly admit it, but please don't assume and dictate that everyone else has the same moral and ethical standards that you have.

 

[vinay]

Santosh,

I know one simple thing that if the law and order is not there, stealing and related crimes will become order of the day. If one is sure that one will not get caught while stealing a pencil or diamond, do you really thing it is not going to get stolen?

Take a very small instance about our forum, if this will not be moderated, there will be a mess, maybe some will say that nothing will go wrong if it is not moderated, moral of the story is loud and clear, rules and action has to be in place.

Well one does not need to support downloads, it is happening, right, left, center, one has to see the number of hits which media player threads get, see the number of media players being launched, see how the big companies like reliance, airtel, announcing lucrative Internet packages, being unlimited right upto the mount everest, and finally see the number of members talking about having many external hard disk's running up to 8TB, are these not being used mainly for downloads? :licklips:

In my case i am into downloading because it is very easy and there are host of other benefits, truly said then there is no human interaction, when i trade in stocks, commodities, currency or mutual funds, here too there is no human interaction as the trading happens via software. For me it will be foolish to buy grocery from a shop, it is any day better to buy from a mall, as this way the human interaction is as good as zero, and we get a much better product and deal, which a grocery shop can not imagine to give, so a library or disc can not take care of the hunger and organized ways which a regular movie watcher will require. Indeed all this is from person to person, my written views are such.

It is very much true that many of us are willing to pay for such downloads.

Wow, so now this is news that renting a movie from library may not be legal, so i will like to see what others say on this, so the debate is going to be moving with excitement, so there is nothing like a dead horse.

V.

Not trying to be a Mahatma or whoever, but I wouldn't steal because it is unethical. Would you?


I am not supporting downloads here. But fact is that downloads are easy, on demand and immediate as there is no human interaction. I don't have to preach nor prove anything to you. I am clear in my stand that I wouldn't mind paying for services that I use. No pretence here. BTW, what makes you think that renting a movie from a library is legal?


Duh!! What was I saying now?

 

[moktan]

So you won't steal a pencil or a diamond, why? Beacuse its wrong? No, of course not, you won't steal beacuse you would get caught.

Download are easy to use is an excuse, the fact is that if there was a possibility of getting caught then we won't do it.

i think there is something basically different between dowloading and stealing from a store...
in the latter case the item is physically removed, leaving a hole in the shelf...in case of downloading the downloaded item has not been removed, it is still out there...perhaps law needs to evolve to take into account these facts..maybe it has ..but it is certainly a grey area..moral, legal, ethical the whole conundrum..
by the way how many of us have gone through college reading photocopies of exorbitantly priced reference texts available only in libraries..

 

[vinay]

Sanjay,

Are you trying to say that there will be no stampede to steal a diamond, if one knows that there will be no arrests? The moral and ethics come in place only when there is a law and order so please don't dictate and assume otherwise.

The world will also cease to exist, if we wear shoes first, and then try to wear our clothes. The moral is simple, to tackle downloads first one needs to stop the big fishes like media player companies, Internet service providers who offer such cheap unlimited downloads, makers of external hard disk, etc, if you can stop them, then automatically there is not going to be any sort of down loadings, so set the house in that order or give fair suggestions for which i will give you full support, otherwise it is like trying to wear the shoes first. I am sure even Ana Hazare will agree to this. :yahoo:

Thanks.

V.

Absolutely not. I would not steal the pencil or the diamond not because I may get caught, but simply because it is morally and ethically wrong to do so by mine and society's standards. In fact I would also not steal, because it would also mean that if we all were to start stealing things, then the world as we know it would cease to exist and there would be total anarchy. You may feel otherwise and it's good you have the courage to publicly admit it, but please don't assume and dictate that everyone else has the same moral and ethical standards that you have.

 

[mandeep]

by the way how many of us have gone through college reading photocopies of exorbitantly priced reference texts available only in libraries..

very well said moktan.

This is really interesting,now is there anyone here who says "i have never read/done photocopies of books"?

 

[vinay]

Moktan,

I think you have well said, there is no comparison between stealing from a store and downloading. :licklips:

It is very true that it is the law that needs to evolve and take the facts into account, if downloading is stopped, then we will be pushed back by 100 years, keeping in mind that in next 25/50 years, there will be a scope of no cinema halls.

It is well said about the college and photocopies, there are trillions of such things happening all over the world, so i think we down loaders should be given breathing space based on various writings on this thread.

V.

i think there is something basically different between dowloading and stealing from a store...
in the latter case the item is physically removed, leaving a hole in the shelf...in case of downloading the downloaded item has not been removed, it is still out there...perhaps law needs to evolve to take into account these facts..maybe it has ..but it is certainly a grey area..moral, legal, ethical the whole conundrum..
by the way how many of us have gone through college reading photocopies of exorbitantly priced reference texts available only in libraries..

 

[vinay]

Mandeep,

You will always find people who will say that they have never done such photocopies but on a sly what all they may do is any one's guess.

On the other hand you know the beauty is i knew of a person who every know and then said that downloading is not legal, later i came to know that he was downloading 24 x 7, if this is not enough, fasten your belts to hear that, he was a up loader too. The moral of story is simple there will always be such sadhu's around.

V.

very well said moktan.

This is really interesting,now is there anyone here who says "i have never read/done photocopies of books"?

 

[moktan]

regarding the legality or illegality of photocopying books or portions of it..one may like to search stuff like 'fair use' , 'Basic Books v. Kinko's Graphics Corp.' and an interesting book (The Public Domain- Enclosing the Commons of the Mind by James Boyle) which can be 'legally downloaded' from here
...Read | The Public Domain |

 

[vinay]

I think the time is not far when all type of down loadings would be available with ease and at a fair cost. :yahoo:

V.

regarding the legality or illegality of photocopying books or portions of it..one may like to search stuff like 'fair use' , 'Basic Books v. Kinko's Graphics Corp.' and an interesting book (The Public Domain- Enclosing the Commons of the Mind by James Boyle) which can be 'legally downloaded' from here
...Read | The Public Domain |

 

[srinisundar]

Missed out on the interesting debate going on here.

Clearly, we are slogging a dead horse on this thread. I am sure we are in consensus on few of these debated topics. Let us see which ones those are and take them out for further debate. Here is how I see it:

So relax everyone. Why even debate on what we all know and agree?

Nice writeup Santhosh, I just keep laughing seeing this thread, how much people are downloading while browsing this forum. Downloading is part of our daily life and part of our immune systems I mentioned about our morning duty

 

[yrk1969]

Not trying to be a Mahatma or whoever, but I wouldn't steal because it is unethical. Would you?


I am not supporting downloads here. But fact is that downloads are easy, on demand and immediate as there is no human interaction. I don't have to preach nor prove anything to you. I am clear in my stand that I wouldn't mind paying for services that I use. No pretence here. BTW, what makes you think that renting a movie from a library is legal?


Duh!! What was I saying now?

Absolutely not. I would not steal the pencil or the diamond not because I may get caught, but simply because it is morally and ethically wrong to do so by mine and society's standards. In fact I would also not steal, because it would also mean that if we all were to start stealing things, then the world as we know it would cease to exist and there would be total anarchy. You may feel otherwise and it's good you have the courage to publicly admit it, but please don't assume and dictate that everyone else has the same moral and ethical standards that you have.

I agree 100% that you won't/should'nt beacuse its plain wrong.

My argument is against justifying the download by saying its easy or beacuse they did not make it available onilne to buy at your convinience.

And santhol2, btw, right and wrong are not points of view, at least in civilised society. If someone really wants to pay, they should subscribe to something like netflix. Oh, its not available in India? tough luck, relocate to US then.

I use Mothay in Bangalore for rental, what's is the legal question?

 

[mandeep]

Mandeep,

You will always find people who will say that they have never done such photocopies but on a sly what all they do is any one's guess.

On the other hand you know the beauty is i knew of a person who every know and then said that downloading is not legal, later i came to know that he was downloading 24 x 7, if this is not enough, fasten your belts to hear that, he was a up loader too. The moral of story is simple there will always be such sadhu's around.

V.

:lol: , well said vinay.

 

[vinay]

Reju,

As movies are watched by most of them only once, is it really worth in having a collection of such discs? If you are having a collection of music disc i can understand because we can listen to them over and over again in a phased manner.

I know you watch a lot of movies and that is great, we are in the same ferry, so that means easily you are buying 15 discs a month? If this is correct, then big time monies you are spending on something which is like a thermocal glass, from where do you get so much of movies and money, as such large appetite can be filled more better only via downloads backed with several usual benefits as threaded. :licklips:

Am i right to safely assume that around 75% of the blue disc movies you rent?

V.

Vinay, I do not download movies anymore. But my BD collection is swelling hyeah:

 

[santhosh]

Good point Moktan, we all have studied from photocopies (me included) which is nothing but piracy. I have even bought pirated novels/books off the footpath but not anymore. Why, I even admit to stealing while I was an immature kid.

On the topic of downloading, we know that it is wrong to download. Even though I know it is wrong, I may still download. Since nobody is currently stopping us from downloading, those who want to download can continue to do so. No justification including we pay for bandwidth, hard disks, manufacture of mediaplayers can change the fact that downloading/ripping is piracy.

My only point is, let us not discuss here about downloads as discussions like these have attracted the attention of music/movie companies towards Hifivision in the past resulting in entire thread(s) being deleted. Also, no discussion on the topic can lead to a consensus as we have all wronged at some point in time in life.

So friends, let us make the discussion a technical one. Let us talk about the source media i.e., 720p, 1080p, Bluray etc instead of how you got the actual media.

[/SIZE]Are you trying to say that there will be no stampede to steal a diamond, if one knows that there will be no arrests? The moral and ethics come in place only when there is a law and order so please don't dictate and assume otherwise.

Am asking from the ethics standpoint Vinay. If there is no law, will you be part of the stampede to capture a diamond? Have you ever required a moderator to control your writings here or elsewhere? I don't believe so. Law is required because in a society, there are different kinds of people faced with different circumstances. I say circumstances because sometimes even a good person succumbs to circumstances and commit a bad deed though that is not an excuse.

*Looks into mirror to see if I have developed a halo with all that preaching(?)*...lol

 

[vinay]

Sadhu

Sri,

Well Santosh, is very good in his writeup mainly because he is a fair person and very well realizes the ground realities. :licklips:

Indeed downloading is part of our daily life and part of our immune systems. The moral is simple, before we stop downloading, the bigger sharks have to be stopped, keeping in mind that they are making monies by selling us the hard disk, media players, Internet unlimited downloads etc. I am sure even Ana Hazare will agree on this.

I am being told that how can i openly say in a forum about down loadings, so is it being suggested that i do this on a sly and play the role of a sadhu? I fail to understand one thing that i should not talk about down loadings, but the bigger sharks can advertise on direct advocates of downloading and make money. I am once again sure Ana Hazare will agree on this too.

To Continue ......

Jai Ho.

V.

Nice writeup Santhosh, I just keep laughing seeing this thread, how much people are downloading while browsing this forum. Downloading is part of our daily life and part of our immune systems:

 

[subhash]

I agree 100% that you won't/should'nt beacuse its plain wrong.

My argument is against justifying the download by saying its easy or beacuse they did not make it available onilne to buy at your convinience.

And santhol2, btw, right and wrong are not points of view, at least in civilised society. If someone really wants to pay, they should subscribe to something like netflix. Oh, its not available in India? tough luck, relocate to US then.

I use Mothay in Bangalore for rental, what's is the legal question?

this rental store sucks , his sourcing of newer titles sucks big time, have been sourcing from them since the days of LD's , why would i pay him 100/- for a Bd for a day and that too for a 6 month -1 year old movie (although i did all these yrs) when i have advanced options at my finger tip ,
i seriously wouldnt mind paying double the cost of a rental for a D/L for the variety and quality thats on store

most /all rental stores are crap (may be with the exception of C9)

i doubt netflix ever offers you a high resolution quality @ the most it may be a dvd quality

IMO renting too is illegal ,can you ask your rental guy to show you any legal documents

 

[yrk1969]

this rental store sucks , his sourcing of newer titles sucks big time, have been sourcing from them since the days of LD's , why would i pay him 100/- for a Bd for a day and that too for a 6 month -1 year old movie (although i did all these yrs) when i have advanced options at my finger tip ,
i seriously wouldnt mind paying double the cost of a rental for a D/L for the variety and quality thats on store

most /all rental stores are crap (may be with the exception of C9)

i doubt netflix ever offers you a high resolution quality @ the most it may be a dvd quality

IMO renting too is illegal ,can you ask your rental guy to show you any legal documents

Whatever I searched on rental points to the fact that its legal or least legal with license from the owner of the copyright.

Mothay is well established so I assume that he has whatever licenses is required. I'll ask when I visit the store next time (which is rare though).

Your comment on the rent of 100 Rs for an older Blu-ray being expensive is interesting. So what amount would we be willing to pay for Blu-ray quality download (or rental), given that Blu-ray is the best consumer format around?

 

[vinay]

Civilised

Indeed i too agree 100% that you won't/shouldn't because it is plain wrong, while this is also plain right that first others have to understand because of their major role in piracy as threaded, if action is taken, it will spell disaster on reliance, airtel, media player and hard disk companies etc, which will result in our auto shut out of down loadings. :sad:

We are talking more about the benefits of downloading which a disc can never ever satisfy, if something is a fact then we need to justify, it should be made legal that is a another story. It is quite fair on every one's part to expect a download to be available at convenience for which we are ready to pay. :licklips:

In a civilized society, one should always remember that one does not wear shoes after bath, we need to wear our clothes first. If we really want to be civilized then we should launch slogans via Ana Hazare on Internet service providers, companies who make media player, the one's who sell hard disk's, in fact these disc companies should not be allowed to make more then 500GB. However in a civilized society there is a better route to work out the modalities for legal downloads as who would want to go 100 years back in this digital era.

By subscribing to Netflix, the issue can not be solved keeping in mind the major benefits of a download. I think to relocate in US, is not a wise idea, please suggest something else and by the way to get a visa for America, is like climbing on the mount eve rest, be assured it will not be worth the risk.

I understand that leading library's often import or hand carry the movies from abroad and very often they may not pay the import duty and assorted taxes, to worst it up they may be using black money and not to forget they will get the un-censored version which may not be good on moral grounds for some of you, in such a situation the legal angle is in a mess here too. Further many of them make copies of the disc, so another burst of the legal aspect. So does this mean that we stop using a library?

To continue .......

V.

I agree 100% that you won't/should'nt beacuse its plain wrong.

My argument is against justifying the download by saying its easy or beacuse they did not make it available onilne to buy at your convinience.

And santhol2, btw, right and wrong are not points of view, at least in civilised society. If someone really wants to pay, they should subscribe to something like netflix. Oh, its not available in India? tough luck, relocate to US then.

I use Mothay in Bangalore for rental, what's is the legal question?

 

[sanjay0864]

Are you trying to say that there will be no stampede to steal a diamond, if one knows that there will be no arrests?

No, that is not what I am stating. My statement is about 'what I will, or will not do', what anyone else does, is for their own conscience and their own moral & ethical values to determine. Once again, please do not assume to know or speak for other people's values.

The moral and ethics come in place only when there is a law and order so please don't dictate and assume otherwise.

That is absolutely not correct. It may be so for yourself and many others, but it most certainly does not apply to all of us. Morals and ethics are independant of the law and in fact they generally precede the laws. Laws are more often than not, based on moral and ethcial values of a society. Laws do not dictate morals and ethics, rather it is generally the other way around, with the laws only there to protect and enforce the generally accepted social moral and ethical values of a society. Ofcourse there are times when the laws of a country may not be justified by one's own moral & ethical beliefs and which is when situations such as this one arise.

The moral is simple, to tackle downloads first one needs to stop the big fishes like media player companies, Internet service providers who offer such cheap unlimited downloads, makers of external hard disk, etc, if you can stop them, then automatically there is not going to be any sort of down loadings, so set the house in that order or give fair suggestions for which i will give you full support, otherwise it is like trying to wear the shoes first.

I am sorry but your argument does not hold water. It is like suggesting that since there are guns & knives, we have the right to kill and murder. The amnufacturers of the guns and knives are not responsible for how the guns & knives are used and there are many legal uses of guns & knives. This discussion is not about what makes it possible to break the law, or how to do unethical and immoral things, but rather the discussion is about what is, or is not ethical or immoral. You are right about the fact that these activities will happen, but that in itself does not make them morally or ethically right.

One chooses to download copyrighted material for various reasons such as, to save money, to overcome non-availability, or for reasons of convenience or may be even a combination of these reasons. But in all honesty none of these reasons in anyways justify what is quite honestly an illegal and immoral act and at the very least one should not try to defend it by providing feable and far fetched excuses.

PS: I am in no way claiming that I am totally free of any guilt and that I ahve never done what I myself consider to be unethical and or immoral. But I do honestly try to adhere to my values as much as I can and even when at times I fail to live upto my own conscience, I atleast do not delude myself into believing that somehow I was justified in doing so by making up excuses.