reubensm
Well-Known Member
I am fine with DIY, maintenance, will hunt in parallel for used TT as well.
A good Technics Direct drive with S-shaped tonearm is a fantastic start. If you find a SL3200 or SL5200, that's the best start you can ever have.
Recommendation for beginner Turntable
- Thread starter har297
- Start date
A good Technics Direct drive with S-shaped tonearm is a fantastic start. If you find a SL3200 or SL5200, that's the best start you can ever have.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
See the phono vs cd comparison indirectly coming up again. Honestly if depends on what one's perception of sound is. I like my sound to be bright, dashing, aggressive and in your face. My digital files playing from a Rs.150 Chinese USB mp3 player wired to my amp, fulfils this requirement. Bands like Foreigner, W.A.S.P., Metallica, etc sound like how they should, on this Rs.150 player. When I want to listen to Jim Reeves, Cliff Richards, Pat Boone, etc, I turn to my vinyl set up (which is pretty decent by Indian turntable ownership standards ). Yes the sound is not aggressive and bright but is extremely classy and glossy. If I'd play the digital versions of this kind of music on the Rs.150 player, it would not sound so good to my ears. My 2 cents
). Yes the sound is not aggressive and bright but is extremely classy and glossy. If I'd play the digital versions of this kind of music on the Rs.150 player, it would not sound so good to my ears. My 2 cents 
Fiftyfifty
Well-Known Member
Thanks Sandeepmohan.... very valid observations.
For now, let it burn in!
On digital vs. analog: My NAK tape deck with purely analog recordings sounds great. And yes, I have heard western classical on good TT setups, though not at the Listening Room, and they sounded excellent. That's the reason I was tempted to experiment with vinyls. I am not comparing CD to Vinyl
On genres: Jazz, acoustic, bollywood and Indian classical sound fine. But when it comes to western classical and rock with multiple instruments as in symphonies, the sound becomes screechy
On labels: Deutsche Gramophone, Pablo, Decca, Bluenote, Impulse, Columbia, Capital, Verve, CBS
On fit: It is possible that my system is too revealing and unforgiving. So old recordings(most western classical recordings that I have are old) tend to sound tinny. I have an old Rotel amp with phono-in and a pair of Tanoy Mercury V4i speakers that I could connect. They'll make my setup look overcrowded, so I'll wait for burn in.
The phono pre: I have been able extract some improvement by playing around with the gain settings on the Schiit... Gain 1 and Gain 2, each with 2 H and L switches... a total of 8 combinations, with no guideline as to what is best for my Bias 2 cartridge!
Cheers!
Fiftyfifty
Well-Known Member
See the phono vs cd comparison indirectly coming up again. Honestly if depends on what one's perception of sound is. I like my sound to be bright, dashing, aggressive and in your face. My digital files playing from a Rs.150 Chinese USB mp3 player wired to my amp, fulfils this requirement. Bands like Foreigner, W.A.S.P., Metallica, etc sound like how they should, on this Rs.150 player. When I want to listen to Jim Reeves, Cliff Richards, Pat Boone, etc, I turn to my vinyl set up (which is pretty decent by Indian turntable ownership standards
Ha ha! Exactly the reverse in my case. The CDs and Mac Mini sound classy and glossy, but the Vinyls sound "bright, dashing, aggressive and in your face"
reubensm
Well-Known Member
A good Technics Direct drive with S-shaped tonearm is a fantastic start. If you find a SL3200 or SL5200, that's the best start you can ever have.
Here's a picture of my SL3200 owned by me:
Attachments
sandeepmohan
Well-Known Member
Those are all very good labels so this part is ruled out.
On the subject of burn in, I believe the signature sound of any audio equipment can be understood from day one. There is a change to the sound after burn in but it is marginal. This is my personal take and based on the equipment I own. Others may have a different experience.
If what you are hearing from the Rega+Bias 2+Schiit combination is a sound that isn't suiting you, then there is little that will change. The RP1 straight out of the box has a very pleasing sound.
Fiftyfifty
Well-Known Member
Hey!
Thanks for all the inputs!
I believe i now have a fair understanding of what is happening.
1. I realise, as mentioned earlier, that the harshness is exacerbated with western classical orchestral music, particularly when the string section plays at high volume.
2. The term audiophiles use to describe the sound I'm hearing is
'stridency of mass strings'. Here's a thread worth reading on this subject
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-makes-strings-sound-quot-sweet-quot
It appears to be a common problem and hard to resolve.
3. I used the tt for several hours over the weekend and the added burn in has definitely helped.
4. My other components are biased towards jazz music and vocals. The midrange purity of my speakers brings out the clear beauty of artists like Ella Fitzgerald (with Joe Pass). This very same quality is what causes the stridency with strings.
5. Recording is a major contributor to the stridency that i hear. Placement of recording mikes has a significant impact. While many vinyls that i have are new, they continue to be replications of old pressings of old artistes. These are often remastered when CDs are issued but that is not the case with vinyls. I therefore bought and played new vinyls by new orchestras and the problem disappeared.
6. The transparency of vinyls is something i need to get used to.
So it goes......
Cheers!
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Thanks for all the inputs!
I believe i now have a fair understanding of what is happening.
1. I realise, as mentioned earlier, that the harshness is exacerbated with western classical orchestral music, particularly when the string section plays at high volume.
2. The term audiophiles use to describe the sound I'm hearing is
'stridency of mass strings'. Here's a thread worth reading on this subject
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-makes-strings-sound-quot-sweet-quot
It appears to be a common problem and hard to resolve.
3. I used the tt for several hours over the weekend and the added burn in has definitely helped.
4. My other components are biased towards jazz music and vocals. The midrange purity of my speakers brings out the clear beauty of artists like Ella Fitzgerald (with Joe Pass). This very same quality is what causes the stridency with strings.
5. Recording is a major contributor to the stridency that i hear. Placement of recording mikes has a significant impact. While many vinyls that i have are new, they continue to be replications of old pressings of old artistes. These are often remastered when CDs are issued but that is not the case with vinyls. I therefore bought and played new vinyls by new orchestras and the problem disappeared.
6. The transparency of vinyls is something i need to get used to.
So it goes......
Cheers!
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Few check points:
1/ highs can sound brittle, lacking smoothness before a cartridge breaks in. Another tell tale sign is woolly bass before break in.
2/ records can vary from unlistenable to the sublime in terms of sound quality. A good test of treble reach and smoothness could be a violin concerto. I would recommend Brahms Violin Concerto with Henryk Szeryng on violin, Pierre Monteux conducting the London Symphony Orchestra (RCA RB-16168). This amazing record is from 1959. Do note that in real life violin solos can sound definitely screechy in some passages, so don't expect sweetness all around. But massed strings rarely sound screechy.
3/ if your arm allows, try varying the vertical tracking angle. The harmonic/tonal balance on some cartridges can change dramatically with change in VTA. It is usually recommended to have the top of the cartridge parallel to the record surface when playing. You could try raising the arm height at the pivot so that counterweight end is slightly tilted up when playing. Depending on how much play is available for adjustment, you can be adventurous in going higher (positive VTA). This experiment is preferably done after break in because in my experience some cartridges are very responsive while others are almost immune to VTA changes.
4/ resistive loading is usually 47K Ohms. The higher you go, the sound will get brighter. If it's possible, try going lower to something like 33K Ohms.
5/ capacitive loading also changes the tonal balance. Going higher than the recommended value will bring the cartridge's resonance frequency down. This will roll off the highs earlier. At this point, let me ask you whether you hear sibilance on vocals? Are ticks and pops very noticeable?
6/ since your TT is new, even the cabling from tonearm to base of arm, and TT to phono preamp also needs some hours to burn in.
So do play lots of records and complete your burn in (30 hours???). This is the first of many personal crosses you must bear to reach your vinyl nirvana
1/ highs can sound brittle, lacking smoothness before a cartridge breaks in. Another tell tale sign is woolly bass before break in.
2/ records can vary from unlistenable to the sublime in terms of sound quality. A good test of treble reach and smoothness could be a violin concerto. I would recommend Brahms Violin Concerto with Henryk Szeryng on violin, Pierre Monteux conducting the London Symphony Orchestra (RCA RB-16168). This amazing record is from 1959. Do note that in real life violin solos can sound definitely screechy in some passages, so don't expect sweetness all around. But massed strings rarely sound screechy.
3/ if your arm allows, try varying the vertical tracking angle. The harmonic/tonal balance on some cartridges can change dramatically with change in VTA. It is usually recommended to have the top of the cartridge parallel to the record surface when playing. You could try raising the arm height at the pivot so that counterweight end is slightly tilted up when playing. Depending on how much play is available for adjustment, you can be adventurous in going higher (positive VTA). This experiment is preferably done after break in because in my experience some cartridges are very responsive while others are almost immune to VTA changes.
4/ resistive loading is usually 47K Ohms. The higher you go, the sound will get brighter. If it's possible, try going lower to something like 33K Ohms.
5/ capacitive loading also changes the tonal balance. Going higher than the recommended value will bring the cartridge's resonance frequency down. This will roll off the highs earlier. At this point, let me ask you whether you hear sibilance on vocals? Are ticks and pops very noticeable?
6/ since your TT is new, even the cabling from tonearm to base of arm, and TT to phono preamp also needs some hours to burn in.
So do play lots of records and complete your burn in (30 hours???). This is the first of many personal crosses you must bear to reach your vinyl nirvana
Sandeep, How would be the combination of the Schitt Mani with the DD/TTs like that of Technics using low-mid budget carts? Thanks.
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Fiftyfifty
Well-Known Member
Few check points:
.... This is the first of many personal crosses you must bear to reach your vinyl nirvana
Hey jls001,
All very valid points and I will surely pay close attention to these, but first let me eliminate the factor of burn in.
Would love to get hold of the Brahms album you mentioned. Will look around.
As for vinyl nirvana, the attachment shows where I am right now.
Cheers!View attachment 24029
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sandeepmohan
Well-Known Member
Might be a bit of an over kill to be honest. The problem with a really old turn table is that it is old. I don't want to recommend something where the gains will be marginal to nil. Not only this, I have not heard a Mani in my system to comment on the sound so it will be unfair to recommended something I have no experience with.
I would start with a CNC Phono pre amp before jumping on to something like a Schiit or anything more expensive. It costs a lot less and is also a nice little hobby kit to assemble yourself if you are in to that sort of thing. I believe we have a FM who does this for a small price.
In the case of the thread starter, it is more a case of the pressing quality, genre and the fact that a Rega RP1 does have its limitations when put into a high end rig. I have experienced this myself as I have a RP1 too.
The other problem with vinyl today and as already said by FiftyFifty, is the source of the recording. I don't find anything wrong with tape transfer but if it is a lousy recording in itself, that can't be a good thing.
Fiftyfifty
Well-Known Member
Update after burn in of RP1/ Schiit:
No Nirvana yet, but many Siddhis. The stridence has mostly disappeared. Good recordings are a pleasure to listen to. Finales of classical vinyls convey the thunder without harshness, Dylan's voice conveys the anger.
In addition to burn in, I kept the gain on the Schiit to the bare minimum, which meant that I had to turn up the volume on my line preamp. I also changed my XLR interconnect from the pre to power amp to a warmer brand. Results are good, thanks to suggestions from Sandeepmohan and jls001.
Now I'm hungry for more and, sooner or later, need to think of upgrading my vinyl gear. Any suggestions? RP6? Or Clearaudio? And the phono stage? I would like basic automation to function... can't run to the turntable every time a record ends. I guess I would budget around 1 - 1.5, is that fair?
Cheers!
No Nirvana yet, but many Siddhis. The stridence has mostly disappeared. Good recordings are a pleasure to listen to. Finales of classical vinyls convey the thunder without harshness, Dylan's voice conveys the anger.
In addition to burn in, I kept the gain on the Schiit to the bare minimum, which meant that I had to turn up the volume on my line preamp. I also changed my XLR interconnect from the pre to power amp to a warmer brand. Results are good, thanks to suggestions from Sandeepmohan and jls001.
Now I'm hungry for more and, sooner or later, need to think of upgrading my vinyl gear. Any suggestions? RP6? Or Clearaudio? And the phono stage? I would like basic automation to function... can't run to the turntable every time a record ends. I guess I would budget around 1 - 1.5, is that fair?
Cheers!
Check out glowing reviews of the iFi iPhono 2 below. It seems to be making waves:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-iphono-2 (notice what phono stages it is compared to)
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/even-more-amazing-ifi-micro-iphono-2-mmmc-phono-preamplifier
Caveats: it needs a linear power supply, something superior to the supplied wall wart (see LPSU models mentioned in link 1) and needs serious burn in hours (link 1).
sandeepmohan
Well-Known Member
Rega P6, Clear Audio Concept, Scheu Analog. Listen to them all. Unfortunately; none of them have any kind of automation. Adding automation means fitting an extra motor to carry out the assigned task and that is adding more problems. 1 - 1.5lac will get you a superb turn table. Do factor the cost of a phono stage too.
Might be worth checking out a Pioneer PLX-1000. Stereophile had a very high opinion about it.
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Fiftyfifty
Well-Known Member
Looks interesting! Decently priced too. For the time being I'll entertain myself with the RP1/ Schiit. Will give it some time before I upgrade.
Thanks
Fiftyfifty
Well-Known Member
Thanks! I'll give it some time before I upgrade. Until then, it's RP1/Schiit, which appear to sound better by the day!
kuruvilajacob
Well-Known Member
Though I have made a late entry to this thread, I would always recommend any begginer to vinyl should look out for a refurbished vintage turntables available for Rs12 K upwards and then maybe go for a new one like Rega if that's possible. I am sure several FMs who have taken that path has benefited by their experience.
navinsinha
Active Member
+1 to Mr. Kuruvila!!!
Order your Rega Turntables & Amplifiers from HiFiMART.com - India's reputed online dealer.
